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Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

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Hillsage

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Nikola Vucicevich said:
I have an even better question: what is someone who has faith in God doing worrying about hell?
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Welcome to CF Nikola,

Aren't those who have 'the gospel' supposed to tell those who don't? I personally believe this is 'good news' concerning a good God.

And those who grasp too tightly, the traditions and commandments of men, will never have a hand that is free to grasp the truth that is of God. So I think that discussing these things helps those truly seeking, to have an opportunity to find.

You are quite new, why are you here?
​
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hello Timothew and Hillsage, I don't have a lot of time, but TImothew, I have not forgotten the long list of proof-texts you supplied, and plan on getting to all of them, but since Ezekial 18 is often used as a proof-text for annihilation I will merge both my response to your post with of Hilsage's, and the focus will be on temporal death, which Hillsage recognizes in some fashion.

The difference, though, being that he believes that temporal death is the actual punishment that people receive for sin, which, I believe you might not be in agreement with, as it seems you recognize that all will be judged...after temporal death.

So this morning I will address Ezekial 18 and the context surrounding the chapter, concerning the death which is in view here.


Timothew said:
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
Click to expand...



Hillsage said:
I'll quote some scriptues and please back up your opinion with the same.

EZE 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.
EZE 18:20 The soul that sins shall die.
Click to expand...

Here is the scripture offered which is used to teach by one side that those judged eternally will...die and cease to exist, as well as taught by others that the soul that dies is receiving the only punishment for sin their doctrine teaches, which is the temproal death of the physical body itself.

Let's examine both of those and see if one can pull out of this text either of those doctrines:


The key is found in verse 1:

(NOTES- while this might seem long, it will take very little time to read; cross references will be in red)


Ezekiel 18

King James Version (KJV)

1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,

2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.


In view is the thought that because their fathers sinned, they are paying the price. It has nothing to do with eternal judgment other than the fact that if a man dies in sin, his judgment is probably going to that of shame.

The Old Testament is limited in teaching concerning eternal judgment, but most then and even today understand that how one's life is lived in the temporal determines their judgment in the eternal.

To help understand that in this chapter we are given a passage dealing with the responsibility of the individual concerning his own sin, rather than the belief that if our parents sin we will pay the price for their sin, consider:


Jeremiah 31:28-31

King James Version (KJV)


28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



Fairly easy to see: if one sins, they themselves will suffer the consequences. Not for the sins of theirs father, but for their own sin.

That temporal death is in view is clear. It is a basic, foundational principle in the Law:


Leviticus 18:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.




As with any doctrine that is suspect, it doesn't take long to see misuse of context, and terms applied for the purpose of fortifying a doctrine.

Here, the term "soul" is, by the first group we examine today, misapplied to mean the immaterial aspect of man, rather than the individual in view.

The second group seems to understand this is a temporal context, but believes that this is the punishment men receive for sin, and that all will be saved.

Contrary to scripture:


Hebrews 9:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



...which makes it clear that a man will die physically...and then receive judgment.

And back to our text:


4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


As we saw in Jeremiah, the proverb which passes their circumstances off as due to the blame of their father's sin, which in part could be viewed as true, did not stop the Lord from making it clear to them that every individual is responsible before God for their own actions. The father shall not be responsible for the sins of the son, nor the son for the father's.



5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,


How is a man just before God? Well, the following verses define exactly that:


6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.


Clearly speaking of that which is done in the body, and clearly the life is also referring to the body.

We see that if a man do that which is listed above, he will live. However, if he have a son who commits what is listed next...


10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.


If he do that which is not right, in other words...he himself shall surely die.

Again, in view is personal responsibility for sin, rather than the tone of the proverb, which implies their circumstances are due to someone else's sin.

And this is contrasted with a son which does that which is right:


14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.


Now don't miss that here we have the three generations in view, to illustrate the principle of the teaching that the Lord wishes to convey to Israel in her time of captivity and oppression. In the first (vv.5-9) we have a man that if he do that which is right, he will live despite the sin of his son (vv.10-13), whose sin neither will he be held accountable for, nor shall the son live due to his father's righteousness. And if that wicked man has a son (vv.14-17) who does that which is right, he will not die for his father's sin.

So we have in view a clear teaching of personal accountability. Where in this do we see teaching concerning eternal judgment?

In the next verse...

18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.


...we again see the principle that the father will be held accountable, the son's righteousness will not save him. And again it is to teach the people that though they blame thier circumstances upon their father's actions, it does not negate their responsibility to do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.


Here in v.19 we see the question which asks, "Are not our circumstances due to the sin of our fathers? WHich has caused the Lord to judge Israel and bring all into judgment?"

And the response is, "Even though you are in circumstances and conditions which are the result of your fathers' actions, if you do that which is lawful and right, and keep My statutes...you yourselves will live."

And now we come to the proof-text:


20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


And the teaching is summed up here. The circumstances are temporal, the penalty is temporal, and each man will receive the resulting consequences to his own actions, not the consequences or reward of either their father or son.

In the following verses this will be expanded to teach the principle that there is hope for the sinful man, as well as consequences for those that do not continue in doing that which is right before the Lord...that he might live.

Now we go back to the question of the two teachings in view: that this speaks of the immaterial aspect of man which survives death...and is then judged; that this speaks of the only judgment man receives for his sin.

Do we see that taught here? Is it in the text? In the teaching?

Of course every man must come to a conclusion for themselves, in their hearts, but let us hope the scriptures are not used for the purpose of justifying one's beliefs, but rather we look into scripture and see what is there.

God bless.
 
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dollarsbill

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Timothew said:
Their destruction doesn't end. That is their punishment. If their destruction ended, they would become undestroyed. They don't become undestroyed. Their destruction never ends, it is eternal destruction.
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Destruction is a process that NEVER ends.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hillsage said:
PRO 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
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Same principle is found here as we see in the previous verse.

I am glad that the term "soul" seems to be understood by you, Hillsage, this is sometimes a difficult point to try to get across to annihilationists.



No. Even today we still see the term "soul" applied to those that are aboard or die on ships. Just we see a scriptural use here:


Acts 27:37

King James Version (KJV)


37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.



And just as we understand that the immaterial aspect of man is not in view here, even so we clarify and define in each passage what is in view, including the Old Testament. Which is where annihilationists find the majority of their proof-texts.

Concerning the word used here, if we take this to mean that they cease to exist, then we also have to apply this to the people of Israel:


(taken from an earlier post)



Hillsage said:
Tell me how is a soul "splintered/destroyed" in eternal hell...sounds to me like it never is destroyed...just un-changingly tortured. I serve a God with a better plan IMO.
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Tell me how the people that the Lord came unto were in a state of destruction? This destruction speaks of a condition which refers to the fact they were separated from God by sin. In the time of the Lord's ministry their destruction, the state of being "lost" was due to the sin which separates all men from God. This condition is present from conception.

Should man grow up to reject the Lord he will forever remain in that state.

What natural man is in need of is LIFE. And only when man is reconciled to God can he gain eternal life, because God is the only source of eternal life.

For this reason is specific that God will not "kill" soul and body in Hell, but will destroy it. Just as Israel was destroyed and yet continued to exist.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hello Nikola, nice to meet you.

The Lord uses gehenna to describe something. What is it that you see he is speaking about?

As far as why someone who has faith in God would "worry" about Hell, it is no different than "worrying that people do not have faith in God. In other words, we seek to convey that which God has taught man in His word, that he might be led to the Lord.

We do not worry that we will receive this judgment, but those that are lost and in need of the Gospel will.

Are you concerned about the lost, Nikola?

God bless.
 
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Hillsage

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P1LGR1M said:
I am glad that the term "soul" seems to be understood by you, Hillsage, this is sometimes a difficult point to try to get across to annihilationists.
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I think that context determines the definition. But, sometimes I struggle with the use of soul because it does appear to be used, to mean the 'whole person'. I personally believe that man is triune, and that he is a spirit, he has a soul, and he lives in a trailer house...I mean 'temporal body'.

No. Even today we still see the term "soul" applied to those that are aboard or die on ships.
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That is my point exactly. That verse in Acts seems to mean 'people/individuals'.

Should man grow up to reject the Lord he will forever remain in that state.
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As a UR-er we have a differing view on that point, of course.

What natural man is in need of is LIFE. And only when man is reconciled to God can he gain eternal life, because God is the only source of eternal life.
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But Jesus didn't come for 'just life', but "life AND life abundant". For me that is understood as God's life for temporal bodies here and now, as well as glorified bodies/life that exists, after we drop dead, in future ages to come.

Since you mentioned "reconciled" I need to point out a differing view. We don't need 'to be reconciled', that has already been done.

2CO 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

He did his part before he gave us our part.

2CO 5:20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I don't tell people God has a problem with them, THEY have a problem with God. They don't accept to 'be reconciled by God' (for His sake) they accept Him to 'be reconciled to God' (for their sake)...that they may have aionian life in this age too.

For this reason is specific that God will not "kill" soul and body in Hell, but will destroy it. Just as Israel was destroyed and yet continued to exist.

God bless.
Click to expand...
I am going to say I agree, but can't help but wonder if we're thinking differently yet.
 
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P1LGR1M

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You supply verses which actually contradict your doctrine, Hillsage. In v.20 is the appeal to man...to be reconciled.

To say that all men are already reconciled is to say that all men are already saved. To teach that all men are already reconciled is to ignore all that scripture teaches. If all men are already reconciled...why would Paul bother to preach the Gospel?

It is because while the Sacrifice of Christ will save all, all will not be saved except they repent and turn to Christ in faith.

Throwing a "universal" slant on the context of 2 Corinthians 5 might satisfy some, but it is clear:


2 Corinthians 5:17

King James Version (KJV)


17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


...only those IN Christ have life and are reconciled.

Keep reading:


18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Do you deny judgment altogether? THere will be no accounting for sin? I know you do not, Hillsage, but what you suggest here teaches otherwise.



20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


Because we are reconciled, new creatures, born again...we have been given the ministry of reconciliation that others might be reconciled.

Here, the plea is..."be ye reconciled to Christ." If all are already reconciled, what sense does this make?


21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Reconciliation is through the death of Christ, only. He took our sins and we took upon us His righteousness, which is not ours.


Concerning the term "soul," I would suggest to you that most references in scripture refer to the entirety of a person. Especially when we look in the Old Testament, where revelation such as we have in the New is limited, seeing that it was not revealed unto them that which has been revealed to us.

God bless.
 
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Hillsage

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P1LGR1M said:
You supply verses which actually contradict your doctrine, Hillsage. In v.20 is the appeal to man...to be reconciled.
Click to expand...
No they don't, they explain exactly what I said. You just don't recognize the difference between reconciliation and salvation. Do you think God used two different words just to keep from being redundant. No, they mean two different things. Reconciliation is a two way street, God being reconciled to man and man being reconciled to God. Jesus took care of God being separated from man. And us getting born again/saved is, us believing God took care of things through Jesus thereby reconciling us to Him. God being reconciled was subsequent to the work of Jesus, and us being reconciled is subsequent to believing the work Jesus did.

Man being reconciled to God was evident when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery she wasn't condemned. That isn't what the law of God said! It said to stone her. Jesus came to change how God dealt with man under the law.

To say that all men are already reconciled is to say that all men are already saved. To teach that all men are already reconciled is to ignore all that scripture teaches. If all men are already reconciled...why would Paul bother to preach the Gospel?
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BINGO...read what you just said, not because you aren't right, but so you truly understand. They aren't the same thing. That's why we/I DO preach the gospel.

It is because while the Sacrifice of Christ will save all, all will not be saved except they repent and turn to Christ in faith.
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I agree, I just don't limit God to your time frame. I allow him to work things out according to His plan and not orthodoxy's.

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us (saved in this age) in Christ Jesus.

Remember this verse? It's just before the one that talks about how YOU were saved by grace. But in this verse he says he is going to show the 'IMMEASURABLE riches' of that saving grace...to WHO? I think that according to scripture it will come to anyone who is still unsaved who bows the knee and confesses Jesus is LORD. They'll do nothing more and nothing less than you did.

PHI 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

PSA 22:27 ALL the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and ALL the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

PSA 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Hopfully now you see why you really haven't seen what I'm saying. Because I do preach salvation. Our old pastor, who hated me believing in UR but could never figure out why I brought more people to his church than anyone else...HIS WORDS. More than all his eternal hell believers. I don't wonder, but then he didn't understand UR either. He just thought he did.

Do you deny judgment altogether? THere will be no accounting for sin? I know you do not, Hillsage, but what you suggest here teaches otherwise.
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Again, you don't understand. I have never said there will be no judgment for sin. There absolutely will. And not just ONE...at the end...for all eternity...accomplishing nothing, but purposeless torture. There are temporal 'scourgings for every son whom he loveth' 'here and now' for SINNING Christians. Why else would God scourge his children whom he loveth?

It is not!!! Read the bold print you just quoted. "be ye reconciled to GOD."

If all are already reconciled, what sense does this make?
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I've explained that, hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Reconciliation is through the death of Christ, only. He took our sins and we took upon us His righteousness, which is not ours.
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No ATONEMENT is through the death of Christ. Again two different words meaning two different things. God was reconciling man through Jesus before he died. Remember the woman caught in adultery? Remember the man healed and told "Go and sin no more lest something worse happen."? How could Jesus forgive sins if He hadn't died for them yet? You do not understand that sin has a 'temporal' consequence as well as an 'ages to come' consequence. God has provided for BOTH. His plan was complete.

I wondered if you might not suggest such a thing. Do you believe man is triune?

1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If not, then explain this one verse. There are others....but I'm still trying to keep things shorter with you. Very few will read all this. Remember the scripture about how 'Gentiles won't be heard because of their many words'? That works here too IMO. Nobody thinks you or I am 'the expert' whose every word is precious. I say that because if we can't shorten things up I'll really have to quit. MY eyes just get too tired.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hello Hillsage, sorry for the short response, earlier, but hoped it might show how frustrating it can be when someone does not properly respond, lol.

You are doing much better, it seems that if you think you can make a point, you willa ctually put a little effort in your teaching.

Good job, amigo.

Hillsage said:
No they don't,
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Again, yes they do. The notion that man is reconciled by the work of Christ's ministry in fulfillment of prophecy toward Israel, or that all mankind or will be reconciled through the work of the Cross will not be supported by scripture.


Hillsage said:
they explain exactly what I said. You just don't recognize the difference between reconciliation and salvation.
Click to expand...


I don't recognize your view on reconcilation. Because I cannot find it associated with that taught by Christ or the Apostles.

Here ia every instance the word "reconcile" is found (and take note this is the word from your verse in 2 Corinthians 5, katallassō, which has in view "a changing" which leads to the implied intent of "once again being found in favor by God," which cannot be said of man in the broadbrush manner proposed here):


Romans 5:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



We were enemies when we were reconciled...by the death of His Son. Where you arrive at...


Hillsage said:
Man being reconciled to God was evident when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery she wasn't condemned.
Click to expand...


...and...


Hillsage said:
God was reconciling man through Jesus before he died.
Click to expand...

...one can only guess, but the guess would be an ardent deisre to make scripture conform to this erroneous conclusion.

Our next passage is:


1 Corinthians 7:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.



...which is fitting illustration of the state of man in regards to relationship to and with God.

Here the reconciliation could not be mistaken for something it is not. Until the couple rejoin, they are not reconciled, but remain separated.


2 Corinthians 5:17-20

King James Version (KJV)


17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


The emboldened is our key word, the underlined is katallagē. Which also has a basic meaning of exchange, or changing. And what you are proposing is that all men have regained favor with God and have had their relationship to and with Him restored.



19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Again the second use is katallagē.

Again we see reconciliation as God's work, reconciling man to Himself through Christ.


20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



It is clear that God is "as though...beseeching" through the ambassadors (usually not natives of where they are) that men be reconciled, showing that there are those...not reconciled.

The attempt to make these words fit a system of thought which contradicts so much of what Christ taught Himself as well as through these ambassadors is only surpassed in it's incredible ridiculousness by the hypocrisy of this statement:


Hillsage said:
Do you think God used two different words just to keep from being redundant.
Click to expand...


No, HIllsage, every word of God is for a specific intent.

I have tried to make this point here:


Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able todestroy both soul and body in hell.



...to no avail.

Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hillsage said:
No, they mean two different things. Reconciliation is a two way street, God being reconciled to man and man being reconciled to God.
Click to expand...

And this comes from...where?

How is it that God has a need to be reconciled to man? I challenge this statement and ask that scripture be presented whereby God is in need of being reconciled to man.





Hillsage said:
Jesus took care of God being separated from man.
Click to expand...

But not until the work of the Cross was complete.





Hillsage said:
And us getting born again/saved is, us believing God took care of things through Jesus thereby reconciling us to Him.
Click to expand...

This is true, but quite different from all of man having been reconciled to God. Reconciliation Is part of Salvation. We don't have sinners that are not saved...reconciled. For when they become reconciled and that relationship is restored, they have been saved.





Hillsage said:
God being reconciled was subsequent to the work of Jesus, and us being reconciled is subsequent to believing the work Jesus did.
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God...was not reconciled, Hillsage.

This is as true as you don't prune roots. lol









Hillsage said:
Man being reconciled to God was evident when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery she wasn't condemned.

That isn't what the law of God said! It said to stone her.
Click to expand...

The Law said:

Deuteronomy 17:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.



The Lord asks her, "Where are those thine accusers?" In other words, where are the witnesses that you should be held accountable to the Law?

Because of thier conscience, all witnesses left. How then can you say this woman could be put to death according to the Law? Neither did the Lord accuse her, so we either understand this to be showing His Deity, that the Son of Man had power to forgive sins, or that this woman had been falsely accused, or both. I lean to the former, and am doubtful of the latter, I do think she was guilty, as it states this in v.3.

But what we do not see is this passage teaching that this woman or anybody else was reconciled to God.


Romans 5:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.





Hillsage said:
Jesus came to change how God dealt with man under the law.
Click to expand...


Actually, Jesus came to establish the New Covenant and to change the Law:


Hebrews 7:12

King James Version (KJV)


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


The Law, the Covenant of Law, was changed. It was not in itself flawed, it was those that could not keep the covenant which made it necessary for God to bring in a better covenant.

Hebrews 7:22

King James Version (KJV)


22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.



Continued...
 
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SilenceInMotion

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The reason why there are people who deny the reality of Hell is simple. After all, it is a new thing- it has been conceived through modern liberalism that Hell is unjust.

Such opinion is, quite simply put, a facade. Human nature has not really changed, only an illusion of change has taken place. Deep down, everybody has good and bad in them. It's what they choose to act on that decides where they stand. Just because the new world has tread on more seemingly benevolent notions does not mean this nature has shifted.

Because of this, there should be no reason why orthodox notions of salvation and damnation should change. There is simply too much evidence of Hell to deny it; whacking it with a self-righteous moral gambit does not serve to do anything except blind people from the truth- Hell is a reality in Christianity.
 
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P1LGR1M

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I am right without understanding, is that it? lol

Gawrsh...t'anks. lol

Believe it or not, the doctrine is not complicated. Unfortunately it is the worst kind of watered-down, sugar-coated gospel one could hope not to hear.

It is your understanding of reconciliation, my friend, which needs to be injected with a little biblical usage. This brand of soteriological free-fer-all (no pun intended) makes a shambles of the consistency of scripture.

Reconciliation implies a relationship. In the case of mankind, the relationship is broken. In order for the relationship to be restored, one of the parties has to be reconciled to the other. You suggest that we see two reconciliations, that of man reconciled to God, and that of God reconciled to man. Just not the case.

God is not the offending party, man is. It is he that is in need of being restored into relationship with God, and this must happen before he dies or...it will be too late.





Hillsage said:
They aren't the same thing. That's why we/I DO preach the gospel.
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It is not the Gospel according to scripture, sorry. It is another Gospel which is a construct of those that do ignore the meaning of words in scripture.

Yet we know every jot and tittle have meaning, and scripture is wrested when they are misplaced.





Hillsage said:
I agree, I just don't limit God to your time frame. I allow him to work things out according to His plan and not orthodoxy's.
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Well, if subscribing to that which is taught in scripture is the definition of orthodoxy, I will have no problem being accused of it.

God's time-frame is seen here:

Hebrews 9:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Today is the day of salvation, Hillsage...not after one dies.

The rich man understood this all too well.



Hillsage said:
EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us (saved in this age) in Christ Jesus.


Remember this verse? It's just before the one that talks about how YOU were saved by grace.
Click to expand...


And what ages do we have before us? THe Millennial Kingdom and the Eternal State.

I fail to see your point here, this passage actually makes mine:

First, you yourself are forced to admit that this refers to those saved in this age.

Secondly (and this will cover the thirdly unto the hundredthly, because I doubt I will have time to get them all in tonight)...


Ephesians 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were made alive, but we were...dead. Imagine that, someone that was physically alive...dead. This is a serious goad for annihilationists, and it has become for you a goad which is not just hard, but impossible for you to kick against my friend. Want to explain to me how one can be reconciled to God and still be dead?

And Paul gives ample description of our conversation before we were made alive:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



Nope. No-one reconciled in these verses.


12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Again we see that the Ephesians were aliens and strangers from the covenants of promise...without God in the world. Separated from God.

Does that mean that Israel was not in need of reconciliation?

Nope:

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


This word translated reconcile still both in definition and usage speak of restoration of a relationship. All men had a relationship with God in the loins of Adam, which was lost when he sinned. Here both Jew and Gentile are reconciled to God, both being said to be twin made one, meaning it makes no difference which one was, for both were in need f reconciliation because both were separated from God through sin.

They were...dead.

And that only changes when one receives the Life of Christ, which was not given until Christ came, and I personally believe not until Pentecost.


19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Now, therefore...you belong to God. You are part of His house. Not strangers and foreigners. Not in need of reconciliation.





Hillsage said:
But in this verse he says he is going to show the 'IMMEASURABLE riches' of that saving grace...to WHO?
Click to expand...

The saved of course. Context and the collective teachinig of scripture will not allow for it to mean anything else.





Hillsage said:
I think
Click to expand...

...therefore you are?

Just kidding, lol, couldn't resist.

What we think makes little difference. An opinion is only as good as the scriptural foundation it is built upon...right? And you are offering nothing here that amounts to more than a desperate grasping at straws.







Hillsage said:
that according to scripture it will come to anyone who is still unsaved who bows the knee and confesses Jesus is LORD. They'll do nothing more and nothing less than you did.
Click to expand...

And again:


Hebrews 9:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



There is good reason why "orthodoxy" teaches that a man must repent and turn to Christ in this age, while he is alive. That is what scripture teaches.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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It is true that one day all will acknowledge Christ is Lord. There will even be those that did so in their physical lives which the Lord will not acknowledge as ever having belonged to Him:


Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



And the Lord does not give an indication this banishment from His presence will be retracted.






Hillsage said:
Hopfully now you see why you really haven't seen what I'm saying.
Click to expand...

You seem to think I do not understand the gospel you preach. Do you really think you are the first Universal believer I have talked to? THat this is a foreign concept to me?

To be clear...you are not. And while I hope you might be the last, we will see.





Hillsage said:
Because I do preach salvation.
Click to expand...

This is also believed by those in Matthew 7. And understand, Hillsage, I am not questioning your salvation, it is your doctrine I question. You have tried to present a scriptural presentation as a basis of your belief, and I commend you for that. However, what we want to believe and what scripture teaches are not always the same.

Believe me, I would very much like to teach that all men will one day be saved. Truly. But I do not see this taught in scripture. I would also like to think that the damned will not receive eternal punishment, but that also...isnot taught in scripture. And it is because of the words used that we know this.






Hillsage said:
Our old pastor, who hated me believing in UR but could never figure out why I brought more people to his church than anyone else...HIS WORDS.
Click to expand...

There is one thing that I believe displeases the Lord very much, and that is a haughty person that cannot show obedience to his Pastor. If one has such a difference of belief than his Pastor, he should find a fellowship that better suits his beliefs, like most do.

But to brag like this is not only shameful, but a display of pride which I cannot see could possibly please the Lord.

I feel very sorry for this Pastor. I hope you have removed yourself from his flock.

And as far as bringing more people, tsk, tsk, Hillsage. Everyone knows the Gospel of Jesus Christ offends. A sugary gospel will certainly draw the crowds, to be sure. But to speak the truth in love is a different story, and as it is said oftentimes, "You have to get a man lost before you can get him saved."





Hillsage said:
More than all his eternal hell believers.
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Tsk, tsk.





Hillsage said:
I don't wonder, but then he didn't understand UR either. He just thought he did.
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Tsk, tsk, my friend, your boasting reveals your heart.

James 4:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.








Hillsage said:
Again, you don't understand. I have never said there will be no judgment for sin.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what you are saying. The "judgment" you teach is no judgment, it is reprieve.





Hillsage said:
There absolutely will. And not just ONE...at the end...for all eternity...accomplishing nothing, but purposeless torture.
Click to expand...

So answer even one of the posts dealing with everlasting punishment. This punishment is not purposeless, it is called just, it is called everlasting, and it is called vengeance:


Romans 3:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)



Romans 12:19

King James Version (KJV)


19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.



2 Thessalonians 2:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:




Hebrews 10:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.




Jude 1:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



Continued...
 
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