Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

Erose said:

I also accept Jesus' statements, and those statements include a command for to keep His commandments, to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Do you think that He would not give us the grace necessary to follow His commands?

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I'm not all that much into making hoops for people to jump through to prove their eternal worth.

Kind of runs opposite to the reality of our current situation.

After long term exposure to various reflections on Gods Word one sooner or later comes to realize that most presentations of God revolve around the people's reflections of same rather than any full scriptural presentations.

If they think God is some power mongering dictator what do they then become but what they think they see?

If they think God is Love, they will tend to see a much lighter way.

Pretty much how reflections in general go. And I'm pretty sure no one has a perfect reflection in any case. So those who are honest tend to see themselves more honestly i.e. NOT perfect by any means. And those who think they are perfect by whatever constructs they employ are entertaining, but certainly not perfectly accurate. Even while they think they are.

In a way it's a civilized way of fashioning various clubs to beat each others with...

or not.

I prefer the or not style.

s

Erose said:

I also accept Jesus' statements, and those statements include a command for to keep His commandments, to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Do you think that He would not give us the grace necessary to follow His commands?

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This is a hard teaching. Who is God-like except Christ ?

Who can love God with ALL heart, mind, soul, and strength ?

Since the standard is perfection, we all fail miserably.



Trying is still failure, although trying with diligence is commendable.

Will God reward my feeble efforts if I continuously fail in all my attempts ?

I agree with The Law in my mind, however I cannot obey perfectly.

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta said:

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal? That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

While I believe that grace covers such Christians and that they are genuinely saved for putting their faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, it must be somewhat troublesome to think that backsliding will result in you becoming detached from the Lord. It seems like it would hinder someone's growth in the Lord rather than promote obedience.

The thing is that God chooses us and we respond. He doesn't let go of us once we're a Child of God.

Sometimes it seems like such denominations haven't viewed the Bible in its entire scope, interpreting. What is your take on this subject?

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Because it's not true. I fell off my faith when I was living in sin.
2 Peter 1
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 6:9 etc

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Messy said:

Because it's not true. I fell off my faith when I was living in sin.
2 Peter 1
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for ifyou do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:9 etc

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

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There is no way to prove that Jesus ever leaves anyone who calls upon Him to save them.

There is no one who believes who suddenly becomes sinless, so 'sin' or having 'sin' or 'sinning' is not the measure of good or right standing as nobody avoids that present reality condition.

It is Jesus who is faithful to those who have called.

If it's the person's faith, then faith to what? Some personal performance constructs? Some personal action sets? Some 'perfect definition sets?' Some 'perfect doctrine sets?' None of these force God in Christ to do anything nor do they repel Him. We all see only in part. We all know only in part. NONE of us see perfectly and none of us DO perfectly.

Some people think they are not saved when they sin. The reality is that no one can say they have no sin and be in truth, so the truth is no one stops sinning, period.

We ALL go to our graves as sinners.

It is God in Christ who is faithful. No one conjures up 'their own' faith.

s

squint said:

There is no way to prove that Jesus ever leaves anyone who calls upon Him to save them.

There is no one who believes who suddenly becomes sinless, so 'sin' or having 'sin' or 'sinning' is not the measure of good or right standing as nobody avoids that present reality condition.

It is Jesus who is faithful to those who have called.

If it's the person's faith, then faith to what? Some personal performance constructs? Some personal action sets? Some 'perfect definition sets?' Some 'perfect doctrine sets?' None of these force God in Christ to do anything nor do they repel Him. We all see only in part. We all know only in part. NONE of us see perfectly and none of us DO perfectly.

Some people think they are not saved when they sin. The reality is that no one can say they have no sin and be in truth, so the truth is no one stops sinning, period.

We ALL go to our graves as sinners.

It is God in Christ who is faithful. No one conjures up 'their own' faith.

s

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Great post, if I could ever figure out this rep thingy...



You say it wonderfully, right from the truth of The Word of God.

God is faithful to the end, we are faithless. We fail all the time.

We are sinners, well-versed in sin, who sin all the time !



I like what you say about going to the grave as sinners.

People become indifferent, apathetic and oblivious about their sin.

In the rush to be "sinless", we can lose our sensitivity to sin.



David writes of presumptuous sins and UNKNOWN sin.

If we can lose our salvation by sinning, we would never be saved.

squint said:

I'm not all that much into making hoops for people to jump through to prove their eternal worth.

Kind of runs opposite to the reality of our current situation.

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So being obedient to God is jumping through hoops? You believe that God saved you right? Do you not think that He is worth jumping through some hoops?

Erose said:

So being obedient to God is jumping through hoops? You believe that God saved you right? Do you not think that He is worth jumping through some hoops?

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It is when those hoops are to justify ones self or sect and condemn others, yes. ON the grounds of sin all are equal and none are sinless.

Do you think you are obtaining sinlessness by the RCC system?

Really?

bottomofsandal said:

This is a hard teaching. Who is God-like except Christ ?

Who can love God with ALL heart, mind, soul, and strength ?

Since the standard is perfection, we all fail miserably.



Trying is still failure, although trying with diligence is commendable.

Will God reward my feeble efforts if I continuously fail in all my attempts ?

I agree with The Law in my mind, however I cannot obey perfectly.

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But we must still try. We cannot do this on our own there is no doubt. But God hasn't left us alone. He has given us His Spirit to help us on the journey, He has also given us a Church, fellow Christians, and abundant grace as long as we ask Him for it.

You are right, Jesus has given us a very difficult command to follow. But like I said we still need to follow; and when we fail, well we get on our knees with humble and contrite hearts, and He will pick us up.

Looking back in my journey, I do see progress. When I was younger, sin had full control over me. My pride, lust, sloth, gluttony, anger, envy, and greed were overwhelming it seemed. I fell very often. And there were times where I just gave up, and realized that I couldn't do it. Of course the biggest reason, was even though I gave lip service to the fact that I couldn't overcome without God's grace, I wasn't using God's grace. I was acting like a Pharisee, trying to do it on my own.

At one point, God had to teach me a lesson. A hard earned lesson, but a needed lesson. And from that lesson, which took my hardheadedness about 10 years to learn, taught me real humility. Not the fake humility of before, but real humility.

At this point I really began see much progress. Those sins that used to overwhelm me, no longer did. The grievousness of those sins, began to disappear. Am I without sin today? No, but I no longer sin mortally; or least I haven't for quite some time now. Venial sins? Yes, but even those are not as frequent, especially the intentional ones. The unintentional ones, I am still working on; but I am seeing progress in my life.

My point that I am trying to make is this I did not really start making actual noticeable progress, until after I really really learned humility and that I needed and began to surrender myself to God truly. So when I look at those points that you made above, once I also believed that they were impossible; but today, I see in them possibility.

From my study of what is called ascetical theology (a theology that most modern folks know nothing about) I have learned that a human being on the journey to being actually Christ-like, goes through stages. There are two primary stages which I think is alluded to discussion between Jesus and the Rich Young Man in the Gospels. Remember that the rich young man ask Jesus, what he needed to do to inherent eternal life. What did Jesus say to him? Keep the commandments. But Jesus added a little of what we call down in Louisiana some lagniappe (which means something more than what you asked for), when He said, "but to be perfect sell all that you have and give it to the poor and follow Me." So from this we get what we NEED to get into heaven; and what we NEED to do to be perfect. Two stages.

Anyway I think that the far majority of people remain in the first stage their entire lives, maybe getting a taste of the second stage here and there. But I do believe that there are some who if they are willing, God is willing; that move into that second stage. And these men and women, come from all walks of life. And we have evidences of these men and women who have achieved high levels of Sanctity. We call them Saints, with a big "S".


The second stage is has three primary substages, which are called the purgative, illuminative, and the unitive ways. I will leave it at that. I don't really have time to right a book on these. If you really are interested just PM me, and I can give you some titles of some great books to read that may open up some possibilities for you.

squint said:

It is when those hoops are to justify ones self or sect and condemn others, yes. ON the grounds of sin all are equal and none are sinless.

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Why on earth would someone want to do that?

squint said:

Do you think you are obtaining sinlessness by the RCC system?

Really?

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Yes I am moving away from sin. Not completely, but I am moving away from it. I am not the sinner I once was by far, and I am seeing progress in my journey.

Why do you not trust God?

Erose said:

Yes I am moving away from sin. Not completely, but I am moving away from it. I am not the sinner I once was by far, and I am seeing progress in my journey.

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To supposedly arrive and claim one has no sin disqualifies the claimer from being in truth.

Why do you not trust God?

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I trust in God in Christ just fine, thank you. It's His supposed adherents who seek to (overtly or covertly) burn me alive forever or eternally kill me in the name of non-adherence to their sect that I don't trust.

I don't know why anyone trusts such people. Not even unbelievers are that stupid.

s

squint said:

To supposedly arrive and claim one has no sin disqualifies the claimer from being in truth.

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So who is doing as you claim? Me saying that I am making progress and not sinning as much as I used to, or as grevious does not equate to me saying I am without sin.

squint said:

I trust in God in Christ just fine, thank you. It's His supposed adherents who seek to (overtly or covertly) burn me alive forever or eternally kill me in the name of non-adherence to their sect that I don't trust.

I don't know why anyone trusts such people. Not even unbelievers are that stupid.

s

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This response makes absolutely no sense. We are speaking of doctrines, and their validity. Please stop trying to make this personal. No one here as judged you as a person. What has occurred is that some, including myself, have question the validity of your positions.

I am still curious why you do not trust God.

Erose said:

Once again we have another attempt to imply something in someone's else's posts that isn't there.

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That's your speciality, isn't it?

Here are some recent favorites:

Erose said:

Why do you not trust God?

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Erose said:

Do you think that He would not give us the grace necessary to follow His commands?

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Erose said:

So being obedient to God is jumping through hoops?

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There is no one on these forums that I know of that believes we can work our way into heaven.

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In that post where you proposed that very idea, I said you'd be denying it as soon as I noted what you'd written. It actually didn't take you as long as I thought it might.

Albion, what do you do with those passages in Scripture that tells us to keep the commandments?

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We should keep them.

Let's see how you twist that.

Albion said:

That's your speciality, isn't it?

Here are some recent favorites:










In that post where you proposed that very idea, I said you'd be denying it as soon as I noted what you'd written. It actually didn't take you as long as I thought it might.


We should keep them.

Let's see how you twist that.

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So if I keep the commandments it is a work and I am earning Salvation? Yet if you kept the commandments, it's what? Your position makes little to no sense.

Erose said:

So if I keep the commandments it is a work and I am earning Salvation? Yet if you kept the commandments, it's what? Your position makes little to no sense.

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Good point. that is why the Word of God is so much better than the fickle any-ol-excuse-will-do naysaying of some who are opposed to the text on certain points.

For example

Mark 7:6-13

1John 5:1-4.

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And as for this thread and the claim that rebellion against God is a form of true salvation - well Romans 6 and 1John 5:1-4 declare that it is not.

More than this - Ezek 18 and Matt 18 both point out that the fully forgiven will experience forgiveness revoked if they choose such a path.

in Christ,

Bob

Erose said:

Why on earth would someone want to do that?

Yes I am moving away from sin. Not completely, but I am moving away from it. I am not the sinner I once was by far, and I am seeing progress in my journey.

Why do you not trust God?

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"These things I write to you that you sin not" 1John 2:1 - not "These things I write to you that you will sin continually".

And then of course there is 1John 3:4-14.

And who can forget Paul's statement to Timothy about his former way of life living in sin and being at war with God.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan said:

Good point. that is why the Word of God is so much better than the fickle any-ol-excuse-will-do naysaying of some who are opposed to the text on certain points.

For example

Mark 7:6-13

1John 5:1-4.

-----------------------------------------

And as for this thread and the claim that rebellion against God is a form of true salvation - well Romans 6 and 1John 5:1-4 declare that it is not.

More than this - Ezek 18 and Matt 18 both point out that the fully forgiven will experience forgiveness revoked if they choose such a path.

in Christ,

Bob

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And let us not forget John 15: [1] I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5] I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

[6] If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. [7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father' s commandments, and do abide in his love.

[11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. [12] This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

As it shows here keeping the Commandments isn't earning Salvation, as those who possess no other argument keep proposing, but rather it is the means by which we continue to abide in Him. And we can't keep His commandments for without Him we can do nothing. But to OSAS'er abiding in Christ's love is a work, and that should be avoided. Go figure.

Erose said:

So if I keep the commandments it is a work and I am earning Salvation?

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That's what you've been telling us.

Yet if you kept the commandments, it's what? Your position makes little to no sense.

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That may be your problem, then--not understanding the place of Faith and Works in Salvation.

Instead of arguing about something that's still murky in your own mind, why not consider what others have tried in vain to explain to you?

Albion said:

That's what you've been telling us.

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Strawman. I never said such a thing but quite the opposite. Instead, since you have no convincing argument to offer to this discussion, you resort to the age old technique of accusing others of believing something they don't.

Here is an idea bring something to the table, except false accusations.

Albion said:

That may be your problem, then--not understanding the place of Faith and Works in Salvation.

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As usual dodging a question, with a snide remark. How about answer the question. When you keep the commandments it is what exactly?

Albion said:

Instead of arguing about something that's still murky in your own mind, why not consider what others have tried in vain to explain to you?

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I have considered and found the arguments wanting. I'll keep with what is very clear in my mind. From this side, there hasn't been any substantial argument proposed. Just touchy feely stuff.

And I am still waiting for an explanation of Exekiel 18.

Still on the warpath, even after admitting that he doesn't understand the issue.