Why do Protestants

[ZiSunka]

Well since y'all asked what Holy Water is I’ll answer then scurry away.

It is water, ordinary water that the priest blesses and we call this a sacramental, something that God uses to give us grace.

The Holy Water remits venal sins and it chases off Satan when we are being tempted or are under attack. Can’t tell you how many times I have used it on my computer when I feel we have been under attack on here.

Basically that is what it is. We usually do not drink it and a good Catholic always has it in the home. I bless things with it, myself, my children etc.

Ah! See, one of the most basic differences between C's and non-C's is that we believe that GOD gives us grace, all the grace we need, and that water and other objects have no spiritual power whatsoever to give us anything at all, except maybe refreshment from our thirst. We don't do sacramentals because grace is an absolute gift from God which comes through faith. We don't have to look for ways to get more grace, because it just flows down to us from God, kind of like spiritual water, which is much better than trying to make physical water into spiritual water.

We also believe that all sins are remitted by God through Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross. All the water in the world can't wash away sins, big ones or little ones, they can only be washed away by the blood of Christ.

It's interesting that you sprinkle it on your computer when you feel you are under attack here. Sort of like a lucky charm or a talisman. Interesting idea that water can ward off evil or firghtening feelings. I know when I feel frightened, I go straight to God in prayer. I don't have to have a bottle of special water to find His courage and strength, or to protect me from the things I fear.

But whatever. Just one more example of why Catholicism and evangelical Christianity are confusingly incompatible.

 

[Oblio]

Well, Catholics and Orhtodox see no reason (nor is there indication in Scripture to the contrary, but rather affirmation) to separate the spiritual and the physical. We believe that God works through His physical objects, in particular, oil and water to bring healing of the soul and the body.

 

[ZiSunka]

Well, Catholics and Orhtodox see no reason (nor is there indication in Scripture to the contrary, but rather affirmation) to separate the spiritual and the physical. We believe that God works through His physical objects, in particular, oil and water to bring healing of the soul and the body.

As I said, it's just one more of those contradictions between our faiths. We don't need special water or oil to make us holy or to give us grace.

 

[Oblio]

We don't need special water or oil to make us holy or to give us grace.

Hmmm,

Do you need to be Baptised in water or can you just say youhave been Baptized in the Holy Spirit ?

Do you need to bless your food before you eat it, saying magic words doesn't make the food Holy ?

Do you need to lay hands on the sick like the Apostles with prayers and supplications for they are just people already filled with the Grace of God ?

 

[Benedicta00]

Ah! See, one of the most basic differences between C's and non-C's is that we believe that GOD gives us grace, all the grace we need, and that water and other objects have no spiritual power whatsoever to give us anything at all, except maybe refreshment from our thirst. We don't do sacramentals because grace is an absolute gift from God which comes through faith. We don't have to look for ways to get more grace, because it just flows down to us from God, kind of like spiritual water, which is much better than trying to make physical water into spiritual water.

We also believe that all sins are remitted by God through Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross. All the water in the world can't wash away sins, big ones or little ones, they can only be washed away by the blood of Christ.

It's interesting that you sprinkle it on your computer when you feel you are under attack here. Sort of like a lucky charm or a talisman. Interesting idea that water can ward off evil or firghtening feelings. I know when I feel frightened, I go straight to God in prayer. I don't have to have a bottle of special water to find His courage and strength, or to protect me from the things I fear.

But whatever. Just one more example of why Catholicism and evangelical Christianity are confusingly incompatible.

Why are you commenting about my post in a forum that you Catholics can not engage in? A few asked what it was and I answered them

I am well aware that you think it is silly, no need to enlighten me.

 

[Benedicta00]

To All:

All I would like to say about this is that... we know.

We know God does not need to or have to, we know he does not need to do anything at all or give us any grace at all, no matter the means, but we believe he has ordained it this way and we believe we are in no position to judge the way he wants to do things.

And BTW, Holy Water is biblical.

 

[Jenna]

We don't need special water or oil to make us holy or to give us grace.

Who said that it was needed? I'm sure that folks could and would live without it.

Ok, so the water is blessed, and folks believe that in using it they are using a physical tool (the water) to facilitate a cleansing of the spirit. We all know that water by itself can't do anything, but I don't think there is anything wrong with using it as a means of a reminder, bringing to mind to put the evils of the world away from ourselves and protect ourselves from attack from Mr. Big-Nasty. (lol)


**That aside, maybe folks should have a little more care when making jokes about a question that was asked in seriousness. Don't forget that some people are still soft-hearted enough to get their feelings hurt because of the behavior of some on the internet. **

 

[ZiSunka]

Hmmm,

Do you need to be Baptised in water or can you just say youhave been Baptized in the Holy Spirit ?

Do you need to bless your food before you eat it, saying magic words doesn't make the food Holy ?

Do you need to lay hands on the sick like the Apostles with prayers and supplications for they are just people already filled with the Grace of God ?

Any old water will do. I was baptized in a river.

We don't bless our food, we thank God for giving it to us.

They are people already filled with the grace of God, the laying on of hands doesn't give them more grace.

See, these are what I mean when I say they are two separate religions that can't be combined. Our language is all different, our definitions of words are all different, our theology is all different, and this is what causes all the frustration between Catholics and non-Catholics around here. It isn't that we aren't all good people, it isn't because we don't all love God. It isn't because we don't want to love each other. It's because our faiths are so different that they can never be reconciled together.

And as soon as we recognize and respect that, we will start to get along peacefully.

 

[ZiSunka]

Why are you commenting about my post in a forum that you Catholics can not engage in? A few asked what it was and I answered them

I am well aware that you think it is silly, no need to enlighten me.

You are taking it as an attack when none was intended.

I don't think you are silly, I think our faiths are so different that you might like to learn a little about what we believe.

 

[Benedicta00]

You are taking it as an attack when none was intended.

I don't think you are silly, I think our faiths are so different that you might like to learn a little about what we believe.

I'm sorry but letting me know you think I use holy water as a lucky charm is, I believe an attack and suggesting that I do not go to God in prayer is one to. If you think this you are in error about what we do and believe.

Now let's drop this and both of us respect the forum rules, okay?

 

[ZiSunka]

I'm sorry but letting me know you think I use holy water as a lucky charm is, I believe an attack and suggesting that I do not go to God in prayer is one to. If you think this you are in error about what we do and believe.

Now let's drop this and both of us respect the forum rules, okay?

The way you phrased it made it seem that you were using it as a lucky charm to scare away the evil words that upset you, yes.

If you would like to rephrase what you said, I'm open to that.

And it never occured to me that you wouldn't go to God, of course you would go to God in prayer. I was just trying to help you learn about how our two faiths are different by telling you what we do in comparison with what you do.

 

[Benedicta00]

The way you phrased it made it seem that you were using it as a lucky charm to scare away the evil words that upset you, yes.

If you would like to rephrase what you said, I'm open to that.

And it never occured to me that you wouldn't go to God, of course you would go to God in prayer. I was just trying to help you learn about how our two faiths are different by telling you what we do in comparison with what you do.

Thanks but I am already woefully aware of that reality and if you are a born Catholic like you said you were, you should know already that we do not use it as a lucky charm. If you always had that impression that we did when you practiced Catholicism then you were in error about that.

 

[ZiSunka]

Thanks but I am already woefully aware of that reality and if you are a born Catholic like you said you were, you should know already that we do not use it as a lucky charm. If you always had that impression that we did when you practiced Catholicism then you were in error about that.

I never practiced Catholicism. I was born into it, went through the sacraments as they were applied to me without having any understanding of what they were or why they were happening, and all that, but I never believed or understood Catholicism.

And yes, it does appear that Catholics use some objects as lucky charms, such as the holy medals that are pinned to sick people so they will get well. That is what non-catholics see as a lucky charm. I believe that your faith calls them sacramentas, which confer little bits of grace to the wearer. If that is in error, let me know.

PM me if you want to answer. I don't want either of us to get into trouble.

 

[Benedicta00]

I never practiced Catholicism. I was born into it, went through the sacraments as they were applied to me without having any understanding of what they were or why they were happening, and all that, but I never believed or understood Catholicism.

Really, so that is why you left, not because they teachings were wrong or anything?

And yes, it does appear that Catholics use some objects as lucky charms, such as the holy medals that are pinned to sick people so they will get well.

I have never heard of that in my life! We do not stick people with pins so they will be healed! That’s crazy.

That is what non-catholics see as a lucky charm.

I guess so.

I believe that your faith calls them sacramentas, which confer little bits of grace to the wearer. If that is in error, let me know.

Sorta, but what it is that - that particular object has been consecrated by God set apart for his use, you can have things blessed, holy thing preferably, and it now can be used by God do what ever he wishes, grace of conversion, healings, etc. It is set apart for his use, not ours, we can't say, ‘here I demand that you have grace because you have this or wear this’, but we wear them and give them out in faith that God can use this means if he wills.

PM me if you want to answer. I don't want either of us to get into trouble.

It should not have caused any trouble, the clarity is needed, like you said there may be those who truly do not know any better about what we believe.

 

[nyj]

I never practiced Catholicism.

I thought you said your father was Presbyterian and was his whole life. Was it your mother who was Catholic?

I believe that your faith calls them sacramentals, which confer little bits of grace to the wearer. If that is in error, let me know.

Sacramentals are items and actions dedicated to God, and that by reverent practice and use of those items, give greater glory to Him. That He favors those that allow Him to work through them with grace should not be a surprise to anyone.

 

[ZiSunka]

I thought you said your father was Presbyterian and was his whole life. Was it your mother who was Catholic?

My father attended Catholic church with us while we were growing up, but after my mother died 19 years ago, he tried to stay with the Catholic church, but ended up going back to the Presby church.

Sacramentals are items and actions dedicated to God, and that by reverent practice and use of those items, give greater glory to Him. That He favors those that allow Him to work through them with grace should not be a surprise to anyone.

Those sentences mean something different to non-Catholics than they do to Catholics. Non-Catholics see the idea of earning grace as an alien concept. To us, it's not grace if it is earned. And we don't believe that any object CAN possess or confer grace, so it's a point that can't be argued or reconciled between the two faiths. Your faith and your theology are completely different than ours, with different meanings for words and ideas, and these discussions should be geared not toward pursuading others to see things one way or the other, or in getting agreement between the faiths, but toward understanding the separations between the faiths and establishing respect for the sake of God.

 

[Benedicta00]

Those sentences mean something different to non-Catholics than they do to Catholics. Non-Catholics see the idea of earning grace as an alien concept

Lamb, so do we. We do not think by using sacramentals we are earning grace, God gives the grace as he wills freely, not as we will.

To us, it's not grace if it is earned.

We think that too.

And we don't believe that any object CAN possess or confer grace, so it's a point that can't be argued or reconciled between the two faiths.

But it's biblical concept so I think it can. Moses and the snake on the pole, who looked at it was healed.

Your faith and your theology are completely different than ours, with different meanings for words and ideas, and these discussions should be geared not toward pursuading others to see things one way or the other, or in getting agreement between the faiths, but toward understanding the separations between the faiths and establishing respect for the sake of God.

I agree but first we need to do away with all the myths and misconceptions like us earning grace for one.

 

[ZiSunka]

I think that is futile, because your terms and definitions are so greatly different from ours, not to mention your pracitces and ours.

We need to start with respect and acceptance that there are differences, and not try to force our two faiths into the same mold. They don't fit together and never will.

The snake on the pole did not possess grace, but that's a different story... open a new thread if you want to discuss that. Or better yet, PM me.

 

[nyj]

Those sentences mean something different to non-Catholics than they do to Catholics. Non-Catholics see the idea of earning grace as an alien concept.

This is a perfect example of why Catholics and non-Catholics cannot get along. Nowhere in my sentence did I say grace was earned. Rather, based on your own biases and presuppositions, you put words in my mouth that were never there to begin with.

Will God's Church ever be unified? I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think that is futile, because your terms and definitions are so greatly different from ours, not to mention your pracitces and ours.

No, it is not because we term things differently, we flat do not believe or do what some suggest we do and earning grace is one of those things. You seem to be insisting in a nice way at this point that we do anyway, even though nyj and myself along with Oblio explained that we do not, so it is pointless because you seem as if you want to remain in error about what we believe, not because the twain shall never meet.

We need to start with respect and acceptance that there are differences, and not try to force our two faiths into the same mold. They don't fit together and never will.

It is not forcing when someone explains patiently what the other still does not understand, what is forcing is when one forces the other to have them accept their error as truth.