Why do people try to obey the law when it's not possible

mark273 · Sep 18, 2012

So dollarsbill, what is your explanation for having the same law written on the hearts of new covenant believers?

dollarsbill · Sep 19, 2012

mark273 said:
So dollarsbill, what is your explanation for having the same law written on the hearts of new covenant believers?

It's not the same Law. That's what Jeremiah was saying. New Covenant, not renewed.

mark273 · Sep 19, 2012

dollarsbill said:
It's not the same Law. That's what Jeremiah was saying. New Covenant, not renewed.

Well, your answer obviously begs the question, "What law is it then?" I would enjoy hearing your answer, but I would ask you to support your answer by showing how your interpretation makes sense in the light of the context of Jeremiah. And just to give you a head's up, the Hebrew word torah occurs 11 times in the book of Jeremiah. It is fairly easy to validate the idea that at least in the other 10 occurrences of the word torah, the meaning is clearly the law of Moses. So in this passage it is fairly likely that the word torah here also refers to the law of Moses. But please enlighten me.

I am a little curious, however, to know your broader theological position. Traditional dispensationalists like Chafer and others had no difficulty seeing the law of Moses here because they said that the covenant mentioned here in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is not with the church, rather only with Israel. They then said that there is a new covenant with the church, but it is a different covenant. Thus there were two new covenants.

If you reject that view, I am glad. Walvoord and Ryrie rejected also after Chafer died. But if there is only one new covenant, and this covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 applies to the church, then you must define which law we are talking about. I feel like it can only be the law of Moses. And I say that based on looking at how Jeremiah uses the word. By the way this is also the same law that Paul refers to in Romans 13:8-10, when he says that anyone who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

BobRyan · Sep 19, 2012

dollarsbill said:
It's not the same Law. That's what Jeremiah was saying. New Covenant, not renewed.

Turns out it is the same law - as both quoted in James 2 and as first stated in Jeremiah 31:31-33 - because when doing Bible exegesis "context is everything".

But some will argue that only those who observe Saturday would possibly notice this detail.

I wonder if that is actually correct?

Let's test that idea.

R.C Sproul - on the Ten Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant -

================================
The Law of God

“God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery’” (vv. 1–2).
The Law of God | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
- Exodus 20:1–17
Following the commandments of God is one mark of the true Christian . After all, Christ lives in His people (Gal. 2:20), and since Jesus’ food is to do the will of His Father (John 4:34), He certainly works in us so that we see following God as essential to our sustenance. Yet may we never forget that our obedience is always grounded in grace, for apart from the Lord changing our hearts, we have no desire to please Him (Rom. 8:7–8). Following God’s law, therefore, does not mean obeying it to secure our right standing in His heavenly court, for we can stand before Him by His grace alone (Eph. 2:8–9). Also, following God’s law does not mean obeying it in order to boast of how we are more godly than others. We are always to confess our failures and remember that “there but for the grace of God go I” (Luke 18:9–14).
Until we trust Christ, God’s law can merely restrain the extent of our sinning, encourage us to love sin, and condemn us as sinners who need the Savior (Rom. 7:8; Gal. 3:23–25; 1 Tim. 1:8–11). But once we are converted, God’s law becomes something in which we rejoice. Redeemed hearts no longer experience the Lord’s regulations as burdensome (1 John 5:3), and they see the importance of keeping “the commandments of God” (1 Cor. 7:19). Through obedience, we thank Him for the right standing granted to us by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Rom. 5:12–6:14).
What, then, are the commandments of God that we must keep? This question is not a simple one, especially since Paul and the other New Testament writers use the word [FONT=&quot]law[/FONT] in a number of different ways. Clearly, however, God’s eternal law is not coterminous with the Mosaic law, at least for the new covenant believer. After all, Paul draws a distinction between circumcision, which was an old covenant commandment, and the commandments of God (1 Cor. 7:19). Still, God’s eternal moral law is found within the Mosaic law, which also includes many regulations (for example, the sacrifices) that were in force only for a time in order to point Israel to Christ.
Historically , as exemplified in question and answer 92 of the Heidelberg Catechism, Reformed theology has viewed the Ten Commandments as the heart of God’s law. These ten elaborations of the fundamental principles of love of God and neighbor (Matt. 22:34–40) form the basic outline of what it means to please our Creator.

Coram Deo

In recent years, there has been a lot of controversy in the United States as to the placement of the Ten Commandments in public. In all of this rancor, however, we should never forget that the commandments should first be inscribed on our hearts. It is a good idea to memorize the Ten Commandments that we might know God and His will better, worship Him rightly, serve Him with gladness, and love Him more fully.

===================================================================
And apparently - some Catholics view the subject of the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant law – this way.

Dies Domini - John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Catholic Catechism

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

The unity of the Decalogue
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

episkopos · Sep 19, 2012

In every bit of our Christian lives, the law has it's role to play in us exercising our faith in Jesus Christ...Galatians 3:24.."Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

disciple1 · Sep 19, 2012

The bible is full of laws and commands.
Like 1 Timothy chapter 2 verse 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Matthew chapter 5 verses 27,28 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 8 All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.
So the laws and commands are against human nature, and no one keeps them.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
The bible was written in proverbs and parables and riddles. So you can't understand it reading it once it's the knowledge of God, that he wants us to know.
I can only guess but I've read the old testament about 100 times and the new testament about 300 times, and the bible is not easily understood that's why you have so many clergy making an easy living, that most of them don't deserve.
If you know someone you don't like you don't love God. There's a lot of people I don't like what they do but they are liked.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14 The entire law is summed up in a single word love your neighbor as yourself. That's all you need to do or the most you can do.

mark273 · Sep 19, 2012

disciple1 said:
The bible is full of laws and commands.

It is true that the Bible contains many laws and commands. But the basic rules of interpretation require us to be more specific in giving a reason for saying that it is one law over another. The context determines first of all which law to choose, and even what the possible options are. It is simply not reasonable to say that every Biblical command is a possible option for understanding which law we are referring to in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

So the laws and commands are against human nature, and no one keeps them.

Please go back up to my earlier posts. I gave examples of people in the Bible of whom it was said, they kept the law. Here's one example from 2 Kings 18:6:

He held fast to the Lord and did not stop following him; he kept the commands the Lord had given Moses.

That verse alone proves that your thesis is wrong. You say no one has kept the law nor can keep the law. This verse says that someone, other than Jesus, did. So I believe we need to set aside the idea that no one can keep the law and ask what does it mean to keep the law. That is the question I addressed in my earlier post.

Epoisses · Sep 19, 2012

When the bible says that someone kept the law, it simply means living a life of faith and having God's love in the heart. The ten commandments are not written in the heart. God's agape love is what is written in the heart.

'For all the Law is fulfilled in one word' - agape. Galatians 5

Abrahams life demonstartes that someone can have faith and love but still break the commandments. As much as some would like to think that the ten commandments are written in the heart it simply is not true. The Law is spiritual not stone.

Foghorn · Sep 19, 2012

disciple1 said:
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10 If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point there guilty of breaking all of it.
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.

Consider these words by, Samuel Bolton,
The Law sends us to the gospel for our justification; the Gospel sends us to the Law to frame our way of life.

dollarsbill · Sep 20, 2012

Like I have said before, there are many preachers of 'the Law' , but I don't know of any doers. They preach their own personal version, not the Biblical Law of Moses. But it seems to make them happy.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NASB)
6 "If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 "But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 "So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

mark273 · Sep 20, 2012

Dollarsbill -

It doesn't matter whether you know anyone who keeps the law. You said that no keeps the law. I showed you in the Bible someone (other than Jesus) who kept the law. I did not show you someone I know, or that you know, or that I saw on TV. I showed you someone in the Bible who the text says kept the law. Now how can you still argue with that? How can you disagree with the Bible?

The thing you need to do is agree with the Bible, and say, okay, the Bible says that it was possible to keep the law. What does it mean to keep the law? That is a far more interesting question and does not necessarily lead you to have to literally obey today that command you quoted from Deuteronomy. Look back at my longer post for a full explanation.

dollarsbill · Sep 20, 2012

mark273 said:
Dollarsbill -
It doesn't matter whether you know anyone who keeps the law. You said that no keeps the law. I showed you in the Bible someone (other than Jesus) who kept the law. I did not show you someone I know, or that you know, or that I saw on TV. I showed you someone in the Bible who the text says kept the law. Now how can you still argue with that? How can you disagree with the Bible?

You don't know anyone who keeps the Law of Moses but you preach it anyway?

The thing you need to do is agree with the Bible, and say, okay, the Bible says that it was possible to keep the law. What does it mean to keep the law? That is a far more interesting question and does not necessarily lead you to have to literally obey today that command you quoted from Deuteronomy. Look back at my longer post for a full explanation.

Total contradiction! This is nearly always how the preachers of the Law end up. Preaching the Law and then explaining why they don't keep/obey it. I'll stick with the NT. It's MUCH better.

mark273 · Sep 20, 2012

dollarsbill said:
You don't know anyone who keeps the Law of Moses but you preach it anyway?

It seems rather pointless to talk with you. Can you please show me in my statement you quoted where I said that I do not know anyone who keeps the law? You can't because I didn't say that. The reason I said that I would prefer to take my evidence from the Bible rather than from either my or your experience is that I thought a clear statement (which you still have not responded by the way) from the Bible would have more authority.

Total contradiction! This is nearly always how the preachers of the Law end up. Preaching the Law and then explaining why they don't keep/obey it. I'll stick with the NT. It's MUCH better.

Please point out to me the precise contradiction. What two statements of mine do you see in conflict with one another? I do not excuse myself. If the Bible says that I should should then I should. Based on how Paul and the Old Testament use the concept of the law and who obeys it, I would say that I am a lawkeeper. That does not mean that I am sinless, and it doesn't mean I am all I should be. But that is not the Biblical definition of a lawkeeper. That is my point.

So please respond to the questions I placed above and don't avoid them again.

disciple1 · Sep 20, 2012

It doesn't matter whether you know anyone who keeps the law. You said that no keeps the law. I showed you in the Bible someone (other than Jesus) who kept the law. I did not show you someone I know, or that you know, or that I saw on TV. I showed you someone in the Bible who the text says kept the law. Now how can you still argue with that? How can you disagree with the Bible?
1 Kings chapter 8 verse 46 When they sin against you for there is no one who does not sin
2 Chronicles chapter 6 verse 36 When they sin against you for there is no one who does not sin
1John chapter 1 verse 8 If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10 If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point there guilty of breaking all of it.
Like I said no one except Christ has ever kept the law!

disciple1 · Sep 20, 2012

I think I posted mark 273's words to close to mine on the last post. Sorry.

dollarsbill · Sep 20, 2012

mark273 said:
It seems rather pointless to talk with you. Can you please show me in my statement you quoted where I said that I do not know anyone who keeps the law? You can't because I didn't say that. The reason I said that I would prefer to take my evidence from the Bible rather than from either my or your experience is that I thought a clear statement (which you still have not responded by the way) from the Bible would have more authority.

Jesus is the only one who is sinless.

Please point out to me the precise contradiction. What two statements of mine do you see in conflict with one another? I do not excuse myself. If the Bible says that I should should then I should. Based on how Paul and the Old Testament use the concept of the law and who obeys it, I would say that I am a lawkeeper. That does not mean that I am sinless, and it doesn't mean I am all I should be. But that is not the Biblical definition of a lawkeeper. That is my point.

I don't profess to keep the Law because,

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

If you believe you are a "lawkeeper" I suggest you study Galatians.

Galatians 3:10 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse;

So please respond to the questions I placed above and don't avoid them again.

Why on earth would anyone want to be under the Law when Jesus died to give us a New and "BETTER" Covenant that provides all we need?

Hebrews 8:6 (NASB)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

disciple1 · Sep 20, 2012

Galatians chapter 4 verse 21-31
Tell me you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons,one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture sat? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
1 Kings chapter 8 verse 46 When they sin against you for there is no one who does not sin
2 Chronicles chapter 6 verse 36 When they sin against you for there is no one who does not sin
1John chapter 1 verse 8 If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10 If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point there guilty of breaking all of it.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14 the entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as your self.
dollarsbill I'm not sure but we might agree I posted some of mark 273's words and some of mine, so I might have mislead you.
Take care.

dollarsbill · Sep 20, 2012

disciple1 said:
Galatians chapter 4 But what does the Scripture sat? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

mark273 · Sep 20, 2012

Okay let's try to sum up:

You guys are saying that according to 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, 1 John 1:8, and James 2:10, all are sinners. Everyone has sinned. Let me be clear in my response to these verses: I AGREE!

Now did you detect any ambiguity in my response to your listing of those verses? If I was unclear in my response, let me say it another way: I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THESE VERSES OR WITH YOU ON THIS POINT!

Now let me go a step further and blow your mind. Our agreement on this point does not affect the point I am trying to make. Please feel free to keep posting these same verses. I can give you many more that reinforce this same point that all have sinned. But I am in complete agreement with you on this point.

Your protest with these verses is based on this simple equation: "to keep the law" = "to not sin" or "to keep the law" = "to be sinless". However, the Bible does not define the phrase "to keep the law" in this way.

Now I have responded directly to the verses you posted. Would you please respond to the verses I posted? Please do not post the same verses you did before that say that all have sinned. I read them, I agree with them, I agree with you. But that does not affect my argument that people can and do keep the law. For instance:

2 Kings 18:6 says: "He held fast to the Lord and did not stop following him; he kept the commands the Lord had given Moses."

Please don't respond again by saying that no one can keep the law. The Bible says that Hezekiah did it. That does no mean he was sinless, because that is not what keeping the law means.

Here is another verse to which I would like you to respond. Luke describes Zechariah and Elizabeth in this way in Luke 1:5: "Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly."

Now I agree with your statements that all have sinned, everyone has broken God's commandments. AND ALSO, these verses are true. I have acknowledged and agreed with the verses you posted. Do you agree with these two verses I have posted? If so, how can we reconcile the message in these two sets of verses?

dollarsbill · Sep 20, 2012

mark273 said:
Okay let's try to sum up:

You guys are saying that according to 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, 1 John 1:8, and James 2:10, all are sinners. Everyone has sinned. Let me be clear in my response to these verses: I AGREE!

Now did you detect any ambiguity in my response to your listing of those verses? If I was unclear in my response, let me say it another way: I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THESE VERSES OR WITH YOU ON THIS POINT!

Now let me go a step further and blow your mind. Our agreement on this point does not affect the point I am trying to make. Please feel free to keep posting these same verses. I can give you many more that reinforce this same point that all have sinned. But I am in complete agreement with you on this point.

Your protest with these verses is based on this simple equation: "to keep the law" = "to not sin" or "to keep the law" = "to be sinless". However, the Bible does not define the phrase "to keep the law" in this way.

Now I have responded directly to the verses you posted. Would you please respond to the verses I posted? Please do not post the same verses you did before that say that all have sinned. I read them, I agree with them, I agree with you. But that does not affect my argument that people can and do keep the law. For instance:

2 Kings 18:6 says: "He held fast to the Lord and did not stop following him; he kept the commands the Lord had given Moses."

Please don't respond again by saying that no one can keep the law. The Bible says that Hezekiah did it. That does no mean he was sinless, because that is not what keeping the law means.

Here is another verse to which I would like you to respond. Luke describes Zechariah and Elizabeth in this way in Luke 1:5: "Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly."

Now I agree with your statements that all have sinned, everyone has broken God's commandments. AND ALSO, these verses are true. I have acknowledged and agreed with the verses you posted. Do you agree with these two verses I have posted? If so, how can we reconcile the message in these two sets of verses?

New Covenant. It covers everything we need to know.

Why do people try to obey the law when it's not possible

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