Why Do People Throw Themselves in Front of Tanks?

[Rocinante]

After seeing people of this forum trashing Iraqis all day.......I posted this yesterday:

Why do people throw themselves in front of tanks?

Good question.

Maybe because every funeral stiffens the will and the outrage of the people and of the resistance fighters?

Maybe because the funeral of one who throws himself in front of a tank is even MORE effective in bringing new resistance fighters to the cause of freedom?

Do not think these people stupid just because you cannot understand the depth of their loyalty to their country and their God.

Watch and learn.

And today, in response to the seven martyrs who threw themselves in front of American tanks and were crushed......we have:

Seven dead and forty wounded Americans......and counting.

Plus heavy British and Spanish casualties.

Perhaps some of you who didn't understand yesterday will understand today.

 

[Zlex]

After seeing people of this forum trashing Iraqis all day.......I posted this yesterday:

And today, in response to the seven martyrs who threw themselves in front of American tanks and were crushed......we have:

Seven dead and forty wounded Americans......and counting.

Plus heavy British and Spanish casualties.

Perhaps some of you who didn't understand yesterday will understand today.

Some details, please?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your statement above assumes that the reason there is violence in Iraq today is because the folks there hate Americans; that's it. They want nothing save for us to be gone, then it's back to selling carpets. Take us out of the equation, and there would be no more violence in Iraq. Just like, before.

ie, there is no larger conflict of which this present violence in Iraq is an integral part.

Or that, the reason for the violence presently being projected in Iraq is simply to oust the US from Iraq, as in repel an invasion. Once we leave, the political situation in Iraq will not degrade to simply the most violent thugs once again having their way with the region and people of Iraq, because the UN either:

A] Won't need to project force in the region, because everybody loves the UN and does exactly what the UN politely asks, sans force, or at least, will be more inclined to play nice now that the Americans are gone, or

B] Is much more capable of enforcing order than the US in this regard. The elements currently barbecuing corpses in Iraq are reasonable folks who just don't like Americans, and will submit quietly to the demands of the UN to form a new order in the region, conduct elections, and so on.

I can find only a political difference between this and 'cut and run,' not a substantive difference in the outcome. It throws a veneer of politically useful propitiation over the 'cut and run.'

Unless you know something about the UN that nobody else does.


This reminds me a little of the current campaign. "What would you have done?"

"I'd have gotten the UN and the international community to go along with us."

"How?"

"By being likable, affable, not a cowboy, in tune with their feminine side, not a conservative, and instead, by being persuasive, accomodating, congenial, and sympathetic."

Look, not alot of folks are paying that close attention anyway. They could just say, "By doing it better," and for sure, they would catch some heads nodding in agreement.

"Yeah, that's the way it should have been done....better! Why didn't they THINK of that???"

Do you really believe that the violence in Iraq has a local context only? I mean, it could be. But, do you believe that?

 

[Rocinante]

I believe it was a horrible mistake to attack Iraq in the first place.

Now that it's becoming clear to everybody.......we need to cut our losses and get out.

Yes, there will be a civil war. Nobody can stop it.

The removal of Saddam Hussein made a bloody civil war a certainty.

Don't make the same mistake as Vietnam again.

 

[sedders]

Those people jumping in front of tanks reminds me of tiananmen square. These people will give their lives to stand up to their government, to make a political statement, because they see terror around them every day and will die so that their family can have freedom.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

After seeing people of this forum trashing Iraqis all day.......I posted this yesterday:

And today, in response to the seven martyrs who threw themselves in front of American tanks and were crushed......we have:

Seven dead and forty wounded Americans......and counting.

Plus heavy British and Spanish casualties.

Perhaps some of you who didn't understand yesterday will understand today.

trashing Iraqis all day? Hmmm, I must have missed all those posts. I have, however, seen posts that trash the Iraqi government. I have seen posts that trash Saddam. But I have seen far more posts that trash GWB.

As far as people throwing themselves in front of tanks...They believe that they are on their way to heaven and their private harem of virgins by giving their lives for the cause. Not a bad deal ~if it's true.

As far as the US not belonging in Iraq: I thought that horse was dead, but we can beat it some more if you want. As I've said in other threads, unless you are one of GWB's advisors, work for the NSA, or ar a field operative for some other intel agency, you really can't draw an intelligent conclusion as too whether we belong there or not.
I do understand that at this point you would prefer to start quoting CNN or some other "reputable" source but that will only fall on deaf ears with me. The media has become nothing more than a giant tabloid conglomerate.
I'm not saying that I don't watch the news, I find it very entertaining and somewhat humorous in an insulting sort of way.
But what I find the most entertaining is the way people on this forum present their speculations as fact. People sit around at work or whatever discussing issues. They gather "facts" from friends, family, and coworkers and combine them into a logical conclusion. They don't even bother to filter out embellishments, agendas, or opinions.
I have yet to see REAL research proving that we had no probable cause for military action in Iraq.

My favorite part of this particular story is the way we choose to sensationalize the fact that fanatics voluntarily commited suicide then we expect our government to take the blame. It would be different if U.S. soldiers threw them in front of the tanks. I cannot feel sorry for someone who kills himself like this.
Martyrs do not commit suicide. Martyrs are persecuted.

If I throw myself in front of a bus because they raised the fares I am not a martyr...I am an idiot.

 

[Blessed75]

trashing Iraqis all day? Hmmm, I must have missed all those posts. I have, however, seen posts that trash the Iraqi government. I have seen posts that trash Saddam. But I have seen far more posts that trash GWB.

As far as people throwing themselves in front of tanks...They believe that they are on their way to heaven and their private harem of virgins by giving their lives for the cause. Not a bad deal ~if it's true.

As far as the US not belonging in Iraq: I thought that horse was dead, but we can beat it some more if you want. As I've said in other threads, unless you are one of GWB's advisors, work for the NSA, or ar a field operative for some other intel agency, you really can't draw an intelligent conclusion as too whether we belong there or not.
I do understand that at this point you would prefer to start quoting CNN or some other "reputable" source but that will only fall on deaf ears with me. The media has become nothing more than a giant tabloid conglomerate.
I'm not saying that I don't watch the news, I find it very entertaining and somewhat humorous in an insulting sort of way.
But what I find the most entertaining is the way people on this forum present their speculations as fact. People sit around at work or whatever discussing issues. They gather "facts" from friends, family, and coworkers and combine them into a logical conclusion. They don't even bother to filter out embellishments, agendas, or opinions.
I have yet to see REAL research proving that we had no probable cause for military action in Iraq.

My favorite part of this particular story is the way we choose to sensationalize the fact that fanatics voluntarily commited suicide then we expect our government to take the blame. It would be different if U.S. soldiers threw them in front of the tanks. I cannot feel sorry for someone who kills himself like this.
Martyrs do not commit suicide. Martyrs are persecuted.

If I throw myself in front of a bus because they raised the fares I am not a martyr...I am an idiot.

Well said, I knew we were related..........

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Well said, I knew we were related..........

Yeah, but you got the looks...

 

[Blessed75]

Yeah, but you got the looks...

STOP IT!

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Warning! Derail detection...warning.

 

[Blessed75]

Warning! Derail detection...warning.

I know, we MUST,MUST,MUST FOCUS!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Not without stratera

 

[datan]

As far as the US not belonging in Iraq: I thought that horse was dead, but we can beat it some more if you want. As I've said in other threads, unless you are one of GWB's advisors, work for the NSA, or ar a field operative for some other intel agency, you really can't draw an intelligent conclusion as too whether we belong there or not.
I do understand that at this point you would prefer to start quoting CNN or some other "reputable" source but that will only fall on deaf ears with me. The media has become nothing more than a giant tabloid conglomerate.

so basically you believe that US government has the right to act unchecked? Whatever happened to 'of the people, by the people, for the people"?

Aren't citizens the final check in a democracy?
You prefer to believe that whatever this administration does should not be questioned at all costs.

 

[Rocinante]

Muzik said:

trashing Iraqis all day? Hmmm, I must have missed all those posts.

Roz sez: You missed them? You just did another one.

Muzik said:

As far as people throwing themselves in front of tanks...They believe that they are on their way to heaven and their private harem of virgins by giving their lives for the cause.

Roz sez:

Again. Hate.

The "70 virgins" issue is a convenient way for oppressors to marginalize and discredit Muslims.

The "virgins" reference is an insignificant footnote in the religion and anybody who thinks Muslims are sex-crazed enough to die for such a promise is out of touch with reality.

Muslims courageously die to fight against those who continue to attack, oppress and steal from them......they are fighting for freedom and respect, just like any other people.

It is wrong to minimize their bravery and their dedication to God and their nation.

But.......this is the way of occupying nations. To rationalize their actions of murder, oppression and theft--they must paint the people they have wronged as tainted in some way, as fanatics or idiots.

Just as you did, Muzikdude.

Muzik said:

I have yet to see REAL research proving that we had no probable cause for military action in Iraq.

Using that kind of thinking, America could invade just about any country in the world.

 

[burrow_owl]

As for the 'no one has the right to make any political judgments unless they have security clearance' contention: I just don't buy it. Discussing the pros and cons of a UN takeover doesn't really require much in the way of secret intelligence. Even if it did, the Bush admin is batting close to .000 when it comes to intelligence on Iraq, so I'd feel comfortable arguing that the playing field is pretty level between the pros and the amateurs.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

As for the 'no one has the right to make any political judgments unless they have security clearance' contention: I just don't buy it.

Your use of quotation marks is reckless.
First of all: I never implied that no one had the right to do or not to do anything at all. In fact, I never said anything at all about the rights of anyone.
Secondly: I never mentioned anything about political judgements.
I did, however say that you can't draw an intelligent conclusion unless you have enough information. We can talk about that all day long if you want but I refuse to argue about something that I never even said.
My point (which you missed) is that people are so confident that they have the entire story when their only source of information is the media.

Discussing the pros and cons of a UN takeover doesn't really require much in the way of secret intelligence. Even if it did, the Bush admin is batting close to .000 when it comes to intelligence on Iraq, so I'd feel comfortable arguing that the playing field is pretty level between the pros and the amateurs.

Other than the fact that intel reports are not a matter of public news reports. We are only told what they want us to know. Again, this is my point on that subject.
The American people have some sort of sense that the military releases their intel reports to news agencies. If you or any other person really knew the whole story I would have no need for my secret clearance now would I? Face it; This government has and always will have secrets and you won't know those secrets as long as it's in the interest of national security and if an administration needs to look bad because of it then so be it.

 

[Michael0701]

"My favorite part of this particular story is the way we choose to sensationalize the fact that fanatics voluntarily commited suicide then we expect our government to take the blame. It would be different if U.S. soldiers threw them in front of the tanks. I cannot feel sorry for someone who kills himself like this.
Martyrs do not commit suicide. Martyrs are persecuted."



Martyrs do not commit suicide. Martyrs are persecuted......
You know, I don't know how I missed that myself but since you pointed it out I agree 100%.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Muzik said:

Roz sez: LOL! You missed them? You just did another one. Your hatred for Muslims is obvious.

Muzik said:

Roz sez:

Again. Hate.

The "70 virgins" issue is a convenient way for oppressors to marginalize and discredit Muslims.

That's why it's used......to dishonestly set up all Muslims for ridicule.

The "virgins" reference is an insignificant footnote in the religion and anybody who thinks Muslims are sex-crazed enough to die for such a promise is out of touch with reality.

Muslims courageously die to fight against those who continue to attack, oppress and steal from them......they are fighting for freedom and respect, just like any other people.

It is wrong to minimize their bravery and their dedication to God and their nation.

But.......this is the way of occupying nations. To rationalize their actions of murder, oppression and theft--they must paint the people they have wronged as tainted in some way, as fanatics or idiots.

Just as you did, Muzikdude.

Muzik said:

Here's another laugher. Using that kind of thinking, America could invade just about any country in the world. Oh.......OF COURSE! That's the reason for using that kind of thinking.

Why thank you for your general accusations and telling me where my heart is. http://www.christianforums.com/t95511 How about following the link here and reading the article I wrote defending Muslims? You don't know me or how I feel about Muslims yet you have taken it upon yourself to draw conclusions from a single post that I have made. You didn't bother to ask why I said what I did, you just saw fit to attack. Thank you my brother you are truly a model of Christianity, I'm quite sure Jesus would have handled the situation in kind.
I am not judging Muslims, I am commenting on the actions of a few with speculation as to why they may have acted that way.

Now I'll say this: I am sick of Christians standing in judgement of people. Christians are supposed to be humble and are to experience humility yet they run around waving their Bibles in the air spouting halitosis-laced condemnation. Does that mean I hate Christians? Sure is starting to look that way. Christians like you make Christians like me consider Islam rather than hate it. I wonder how much interaction like this (between brothers) draws people to our faith? I would really like an answer from you personally.
This is possibly the most arrogant post I have ever read.

Christians make me sick, not Muslims. I have spent much time in the Middle East and I know many Muslims. Just because I don't agree with their religion does not mean I hate them. You are presumptuous and it is unappreciated. This is the last post I will make in this thread. If you feel a need to further attack my character, please do it over PM.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

so basically you believe that US government has the right to act unchecked? Whatever happened to 'of the people, by the people, for the people"?

Aren't citizens the final check in a democracy?
You prefer to believe that whatever this administration does should not be questioned at all costs.

Ok, this is my last post. I have never been misquoted in so many replies in a row. I missed this one.
So basically I believe nothing of the sort. Putting a question mark at the end of this statement doesn't make it a question. You are telling me what I believe. That really puts me on the deffensive. Please try to be more careful with your wording. A question starts with "Do you believe" not "So you believe"

Please quote where I said anything about the government acting unchecked.
My point is that the media is not the best source of information on which to base our conclusions but that is what we do.
When was the last time you questioned the government? I'm not talking about coming into a message board and griping, I'm taliking about writing your congressmen and senators. Did you persue the issue or did you just take the form letter reply from one of their aides as the final answer?

You people are killing me.

 

[Blessed75]

Muzik said:

Roz sez: LOL! You missed them? You just did another one. Your hatred for Muslims is obvious.

Muzik said:

Roz sez:

Again. Hate.

The "70 virgins" issue is a convenient way for oppressors to marginalize and discredit Muslims.

That's why it's used......to dishonestly set up all Muslims for ridicule.

The "virgins" reference is an insignificant footnote in the religion and anybody who thinks Muslims are sex-crazed enough to die for such a promise is out of touch with reality.

Muslims courageously die to fight against those who continue to attack, oppress and steal from them......they are fighting for freedom and respect, just like any other people.

It is wrong to minimize their bravery and their dedication to God and their nation.

But.......this is the way of occupying nations. To rationalize their actions of murder, oppression and theft--they must paint the people they have wronged as tainted in some way, as fanatics or idiots.

Just as you did, Muzikdude.

Muzik said:

Here's another laugher. Using that kind of thinking, America could invade just about any country in the world. Oh.......OF COURSE! That's the reason for using that kind of thinking.

I'm sorry but I find your post insulting. Never once did he say he was a Muslim hater. He expressed his opinion and I happen to agree with him which means you're calling me a Muslim hater as well. I'm sorry, but HOW DARE YOU?

 

[burrow_owl]

I have never been misquoted in so many replies in a row.

I don't think you've been "misquoted." FYI: Double quotes - like those I just used - indicate a reproduction of the speaker's actual words. Single quotes - like the ones I used in the above post - gesture toward the gist of the speaker's words.

My point (which you missed) is that people are so confident that they have the entire story when their only source of information is the media.

Wow. Our only source of info is the media? Stop the presses! Seriously, I think that's an underlying assumption of most conversation about these things. Unless there's a specific criticism to which this banality attaches (ie raising reasonable doubts about the assertion that there aren't unconventional weapons in Iraq or something), it just isn't very helpful (unless one is trying to shift the topic to epistemic limits of civilian discourse).