Why do people think it is ok to Sin?

[Ben12]

The Church existed before the New Testament. Were you aware of that? They had and still have Holy Tradition, of which the scriptures are an integral part. The New Testament would not exist if it wasn't for the Holy Tradition of the Ecclesia.

Please read this article called The River of Fire:
http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html

​

Actually you have some truth in what you are saying; if you look at it from a historical perspective; BUT; I believe there is a more relevant perspective called God’s Spirit with in you. The Greek Word “ecclesia” which you mentioned simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby-lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory.

Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

God uses Baby lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more. God does not call religion, system He calls men. You speak as if the Holy Spirit can only speak only though some eastern orthodox priest. Well I disagree the Holy Spirit is a Devine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming. And as scripture declares one that will lead and guide us into all truth (notice nothing mentioned about Eastern Orthodox Priest). This is why there are so many religions; the last only religious man dare hear is the spirit of Christ with in them.

Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:8 See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.

 

[Ben12]

It's always interesting to see people use the holy scriptures and twist them around to mean something completely different. All of those doctrines of men, and each one thinking he has the Holy Spirit guiding him in his interpretations, regardless of the fact that all of those men often disagree. Intriguing how the Holy Spirit always agrees with their pre-existent beliefs and conclusions. I wasn't aware that God was the author of confusion. Salvation can only be found in Christ's Holy Church. The lone ranger scenario isn't the truth. The Church is the saving ark.

This is my point; I did not twist scripture I quoted scripture; I showed you a spiritual pattern; if just does not fit your old wine skin.

 

[k2svpete]

We inherit the consequence of sin, not their sin. Nobody is born depraved. God doesn't create evil. Interesting parallel to the reality of corporate salvation, no?

So, we can be tarred with the same brush and suffer the same punishment, despite not sinning. Now that makes no sense at all and makes a liar out of God. He is merciful and just. Where is the mercy and just in that plan?

We all inherit the sin nature from Adam. To deny it is to deny the truth.

 

[armothe]

We all inherit the sin nature from Adam. To deny it is to deny the truth.

Am interested in seeing the scripture which leads you to this truth.

-A

 

[Ben12]

Am interested in seeing the scripture which leads you to this truth.

-A

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2​

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

​

 

[seashale76]

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

​

Thank you for proving my point. Adam's sin brought death into the world. We all suffer the consequence of Adam's sin; death. Yet, Adam's sin is not ours. However, we all sin, as sin is anything which keeps us from communion with God, which is our entire purpose for being. Without Christ, it isn't possible to commune with God. Christ defeated sin and death. Through Christ's Holy Church, which is the ark of our salvation, we are now able to commune with God in the way He always intended. Because of Adam's sin, we were all inflicted with death. The Good News being, that through Christ, the New Adam, we can all be given eternal life. Corporate salvation. Yet, it is dependent on each of us choosing to live out our lives working out our salvation in His Church. We must finish the race.

Hell and heaven are two different experiences of the same state, which is being in the presence of the living God.

 

[Ben12]

Thank you for proving my point. Adam's sin brought death into the world. We all suffer the consequence of Adam's sin; death. Yet, Adam's sin is not ours. However, we all sin, as sin is anything which keeps us from communion with God, which is our entire purpose for being. Without Christ, it isn't possible to commune with God. Christ defeated sin and death. Through Christ's Holy Church, which is the ark of our salvation, we are now able to commune with God in the way He always intended. Because of Adam's sin, we were all inflicted with death. The Good News being, that through Christ, the New Adam, we can all be given eternal life. Corporate salvation. Yet, it is dependent on each of us choosing to live out our lives working out our salvation in His Church. We must finish the race.

Hell and heaven are two different experiences of the same state, which is being in the presence of the living God.

So how does a person choose if he is dead in sin? A dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc. That is especially true to a dead spiritual man. I will also add a dead religious man/woman; in other you have no choice; you priest does all that for you? Blind follow the blind.

 

[seashale76]

So how does a person choose if he is dead in sin? A dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc. That is especially true to a dead spiritual man. I will also add a dead religious man/woman; in other you have no choice; you priest does all that for you? Blind follow the blind.

Ben,

When you look at Moses' account of the fall into sin, it is an interesting parallel to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son left and fell into grief and suffering. However, it also gives us hope that we can always return. The incarnation of Christ made this possible.

And, it is the Christian belief that everyone sins, as sin is anything which causes us to miss the mark; the mark being living a life fully in communion with God. So, from this perspective, we sin in knowledge, in ignorance, voluntarily, and involuntarily.

God writes the truth of right and wrong in our hearts, so someone's conscience is God given. So, even if one rejects Christ, that person still has the ability to make good choices and be nice. However, such a person would not be in communion with God, of their own volition, which is very sad considering that is our entire purpose for being.

As man was created for being united with the divine energies, our way of achieving this is through Christ's Holy Church, which is the ultimate hospital for sinners, with Christ as the Great Physician. God became man so that man might become like God. Christ defeated sin and death. The incarnation made it possible for man to know and commune with God.

This is a wonderful thing, as those who have finished the race after having been tempered in Christ's Church in this life, will be able to endure God's presence as paradise, for God is fire. Those who have not been tempered will be tormented by having to endure God's burning love for them.

Also, regarding priests: They are icons of Christ, just as the rest of us are icons of Christ to everyone else.

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2)

We are all called to worship God and stand before Him in thanksgiving and in communion, which is what priests did/do. So, we are all part of the royal priesthood. Nothing of this scripture negates the role of priests in the Church. Our clergy co-celebrate with us in the Divine Liturgy. The sacramental role of our clergy/priests is done on behalf of the assembly and our worship is offered to God in a corporate way. A priest is an icon of Christ to his congregation.

 

[Ben12]

Ben,

When you look at Moses' account of the fall into sin, it is an interesting parallel to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son left and fell into grief and suffering. However, it also gives us hope that we can always return. The incarnation of Christ made this possible.

And, it is the Christian belief that everyone sins, as sin is anything which causes us to miss the mark; the mark being living a life fully in communion with God. So, from this perspective, we sin in knowledge, in ignorance, voluntarily, and involuntarily.

God writes the truth of right and wrong in our hearts, so someone's conscience is God given. So, even if one rejects Christ, that person still has the ability to make good choices and be nice. However, such a person would not be in communion with God, of their own volition, which is very sad considering that is our entire purpose for being.

As man was created for being united with the divine energies, our way of achieving this is through Christ's Holy Church, which is the ultimate hospital for sinners, with Christ as the Great Physician. God became man so that man might become like God. Christ defeated sin and death. The incarnation made it possible for man to know and commune with God.

This is a wonderful thing, as those who have finished the race after having been tempered in Christ's Church in this life, will be able to endure God's presence as paradise, for God is fire. Those who have not been tempered will be tormented by having to endure God's burning love for them.

Also, regarding priests: They are icons of Christ, just as the rest of us are icons of Christ to everyone else.

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2)

We are all called to worship God and stand before Him in thanksgiving and in communion, which is what priests did/do. So, we are all part of the royal priesthood. Nothing of this scripture negates the role of priests in the Church. Our clergy co-celebrate with us in the Divine Liturgy. The sacramental role of our clergy/priests is done on behalf of the assembly and our worship is offered to God in a corporate way. A priest is an icon of Christ to his congregation.

I am a lone ranger as you put it earlier. Christ Holy Church is a term I would never use or worship; I believe very much that Jesus is Lord and He dwells with in all of us; that is the Church and not some man made building; system or religion. First of all I do not believe in Icons nor do I recognize some man in a dark robe as a priest who was appointed by your religion or any other religion. My grandfather was Greek and was a Greek Orthodox until the day he died; just before his death one of those priests could not travel 100 miles to pray with him.

Oh I believe in the Royal Priesthood/ the Melchzedek Priesthood but this has nothing to do with your religion; God ordains men; not Icons. I do not celebrate or believe in your Divine Liturgy or Holy Eucharist or what ever tradition man calls holy. Nor do I recognize the sacramental role of our clergy/priests in your religion or any other religion to include communion. If there are any relevance to any of the above it as nothing to do with outward tradition; my wife is Methodist and she is too orthodox for me.

 

[Ben12]

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.​

​

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it.

​

The reason there are many denominations are for two main reasons; spiritual growth and being opened for truth; as well as spiritual immaturity and closing your spiritual understanding. A choice between hearing God; or hearing man and his tradition; men of God like Luther has a revelation and walked in it; but instead of being opened for more they built their denominational walls made of the hardest material on this earth.

​

Luke 8:10​

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Bottom of Form If the Bible teaches us anything we need to hear God. God’s Words is living and growing and God is pouring out His Spirit in the last days.

Romans 4:16 speaks of "the faith of Abraham," and if we possess this faith we would obviously do the works of Abraham. As we also read, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." [John 8:39]. To hold his vision, to have his faith, results in his way of living.
If you have the "faith of the Baptists" you would live in accordance to their creed and doctrine. lf you have the "faith of the Pentecostals' you would follow their mode of living. And if you have the "faith of the Catholics" you would be following their religious system, form, and ceremony. But we are not speaking of these kinds of faith, i.e. system of beliefs, as good as they might be in their own share, and as much as God has used them in former days. But we now address ourselves to that specific faith, that which is GOD-IMPARTED, which indeed Abraham also possessed. And "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." [Galatians 3:7]. As Abraham received directly FROM GOD, so also we would receive directly FROM GOD, by the indwelling of the holy Spirit-- and as such would be counted as the children of Abraham, following God in like manner.
"But before the faith came, we were kept under (guarded by) the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." [Galatians 3:23-25].
In all cases, in the Greek text, in this passage it is identified as THE FAITH. Abraham had received this faith, however much in a mystery capsule it was given to him, for "the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Galatians 3:23-25].
Long before the gospel-- or GOOD NEWS was announced, yes, even prior to the dispensation of the law which preceded the good news, God already spoke some of the MYSTERY OF THE FAITH into Abraham, and He lived by that faith. "Abraham BELIEVED GOD . . ." [Romans 4:3].
But it wasn't time for the "mystery of the faith" to be revealed, and so God instituted the law, which served as a schoolmaster until . . . so note this word "schoolmaster" from a Greek word that literally means "a child-conductor." The child-conductor was that servant which simply guarded and kept the child between home and school, until they could safely commit the child into the hand of the teacher. So also, the law was given, to hold in restraint until Christ, The Teacher, The Faith, (Editor's note: The Revelator), should come, and then the lesser ministry was swallowed up into the greater.
Ray Prinzing

 

[armothe]

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. ​

Wouldn't you have to admit that through Christ's sacrifice, all men are now inherently sinless?​

-A​

 

[Ben12]

Wouldn't you have to admit that through Christ's sacrifice, all men are now inherently sinless?​

-A​

No; sin is major part of what God is doing to change us. I am a sinner; I was born in sin; and will die in sin; until he changes us.

 

[armothe]

But if one man's sin was inherently imparted to everyone else, then why wouldn't one man's righteousness be inherently imparted to everyone else? Isn't that what the text plainly teaches?

-A

 

[Ben12]

But if one man's sin was inherently imparted to everyone else, then why wouldn't one man's righteousness be inherently imparted to everyone else? Isn't that what the text plainly teaches?

-A

Because that one man was God's son Jesus; who was pre ordain before the foundation of the earth; God had a savior before he had a sinner. It is all part of god's plan for all humanity...

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ,
as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He
indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of the
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[armothe]

Because that one man was God's son Jesus; who was pre ordain before the foundation of the earth; God had a savior before he had a sinner. It is all part of god's plan for all humanity..

So how come we aren't all inherently sinless now that Christ offered Himself up as a sacrifice?

"Because He is God" or "Because we are born in sin" doesn't really answer my question based on the Romans 5 passage you provided.

-A

 

[k2svpete]

Because only those who answer the call of Christ will be counted as his flock. We are saved by grace, through faith. Therefore, those who are faithful and having been offered the grace of God will be redeemed from their sins.

 

[armothe]

Because only those who answer the call of Christ will be counted as his flock.

So if righteousness is not automatically inherited, but rather takes action by either God (SovGrc) or us (Armin); then sin isn't inherited either. Rather it takes an action for each person to become a sinner.

Look at the balance of the text. Either sin & righteousness are both automatically inherited, or neither are. My original question is asking how you guys reconcile this.

-A

 

[Ben12]

So if righteousness is not automatically inherited, but rather takes action by either God (SovGrc) or us (Armin); then sin isn't inherited either. Rather it takes an action for each person to become a sinner.

Look at the balance of the text. Either sin & righteousness are both automatically inherited, or neither are. My original question is asking how you guys reconcile this.

-A

Did you ever notice while living here on earth our Lord was extremely kind. He picked up little children and blessed them. He healed all who were suffering with pain. While relatives were weeping over dead loved ones, He raised four of them to life again. The Saviour of all men said to the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more” (Jn. 8:11). His kindness made an evangelist out of the wicked woman at the well (Jn. 4:29). Because Jesus really loved the weak, helpless creatures whom He had created, He wept over them, prayed for them and taught them continually. Except those religious Pharisees, Jesus never spoke one cross word to the unconverted masses. He was very tender and kind in all His dealings with men, even the most wicked among them. He sat at meat with the rich and ungodly and never upbraided them for their sins, shortcomings, and moral failures. His approach to them was very gentle, delicate, and considerate. Surely then, we are safer in His hands than anywhere else! The things He has in store for every one of us are far greater than we could plan for ourselves!
The Holy Spirit has taught me three things relative to the life of sonship. These three principles are expressed in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is God’s rainbow of promise around the throne. First, Jesus never condoned sin. How do I know this? Because, when the woman caught in adultery was left before Him, He spoke prophetically and redemptively into her life, saying, “Go, and sin no more.” I believe she did just that! His words were spirit and life unto her, transforming and lifting her life. Jesus did not come to condone our fallen state and sinful conduct, He came to save us from it! He didn’t come to say, “I’m O.K., you’re O.K., everybody’s O.K.” Everybody is not O.K.! Jesus was often forgiving sin and then admonishing, “Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you.” He perfectly understood the law of sowing and reaping, the law of sin and death, with it’s inherent process of judgment.
Hear me now! Secondly, Jesus never condemned the sinner! Never! His testimony was that “God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” Though Jesus never condoned sin, He never condemned the sinner! He didn’t go around reminding men what terrible sinners they were. Most men already knew that! He didn’t counsel them about all the bad they had done or were doing. He knew what was in man, He understood that people really, within their own human strength and nature, could not help what they were! They needed compassion, love, mercy, and deliverance — not condemnation! Never, in all His years of ministry, did He ever condemn even one sinner! Jesus could do something that very few of our modern fundamentalist and evangelical preachers can do — He could preach salvation without first informing his audience about how fallen, rotten, wicked, and despicable they were, and how hot was the hell that awaited them if they didn’t repent! He didn’t say, “Repent, or you’re going to eternal hell!” On the contrary, He said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” “Repent — because I have something infinitely better prepared for you!” Isn’t it wonderful!

 

[AgapeBible]

I really admire what you had to say, Ben12. I have a question. Is nudity in art equal to porn? Is it wrong? Yesterday I was at an art site and looking up pictures of dragons. I looked up pictures of dragon sacrifices of girls/young women who were sacrificed to dragons, and a lot of the pictures/drawings/paintings/art showed young women tied up, in bondage usually nude or scantilly clad tied up before a scary looking dragon. Not all the dragons were scary some of them actually looked friendly like they were not going to eat the girl. I've drawn a couple of dragons acrifice pics myself and started to write a story about a peasant girl who is sacrificed to a dragon but he is a nice dragon and he doesn't eat her they fall in love. I changed my mind about the story because an inter-species relationship is not exactly christian.

 

[armothe]

Did you ever notice while living here on earth our Lord was extremely kind.

That is a great post, indeed. But I don't think it addressed my question at all. Perhaps I just haven't asked it plainly enough.

-A