mark wright
Active Member
I do not perfectly obey the moral law. But I am honest. Anyone who claims they do perfectly obey the moral law, immediately breaks it by stating that
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I do not perfectly obey the moral law. But I am honest. Anyone who claims they do perfectly obey the moral law, immediately breaks it by stating thatWhat about yourself? Do you fully or partly obey the moral law or do you fully or partly disobey the moral law??
Are you afraid that you might do any? That you might actually fully obey the moral law or fully disobey the moral law?
What if you fully obeyed the moral law? Then you disobeyed the Commandment that says You must not LIE!
And if fully disobeyed the moral law? Then you disobeyed the FULL <moral law> that says to Love God!
But you are AFRAID of the truth that you like "every man is under the Law for as long as he lives". WHY?! Christ cannot, and won't even bother to FIND you, anywhere else -- anywhere else than UNDER THE LAW. Or He certainly won't be unto you a Saviour. For what would He have saved you from? What would He save you of? There's no grace for anyone not in need of grace.
That's better. You admit you break the moral law/TC. Therefore you cannot attain heaven under a justification of obeying the moral law/TCSome people just don't get it and never will!!
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
I obey God, I obey!!!!! Do I fail??? yes, that is when Jesus picks me up again and we get back on track. Just like every other sinner!!
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
BTWSome people just don't get it and never will!!
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
I obey God, I obey!!!!! Do I fail??? yes, that is when Jesus picks me up again and we get back on track. Just like every other sinner!!
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hence Paul states:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it I written. Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law.
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because. The righteous will live by faith
Gal3:10&11
For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law rom3:28No! You TWIST the Scripture so blatantly it's unbelievable! Do you think no one than yourself can READ?!
The Scripture reads, "All who __rely__ on (their) __observing__ the law are under a curse"; you say, <<no one is justified before God by the law>>. That's not what Paul wrote or meant to write; that is what you intentionally for your own ends manipulate the Scripture to say.
Paul said he could faultlessly obey the legalistic law as a Pharisee, but not the moral law. Therefore it is possible to faultlessly obey the legalistic law.
As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness faultlessBut this is plain nonsense and untrue!? Paul never said anything in the line of such falsity.
And what is a <<legalistic law>>?? You really are of the opinion one is able to <<faultlessly obey ... the moral law>>!?
If there's a law no one to any degree is able to obey it is the so called <<moral law>>; the 'easy' one is the so called <<legalistic law>>. (My God!)
Romans Chapters 7 and 8The commandment I believed would give me life if I obeyed it, instead brought condemnation/ death for I could not keep it. Sin through the law slew me.
Yet I knew the law was holy, perfect, just and good, the problem was my sinful nature.
Through the commandment sin became utterly sinful in me.
I do not perfectly obey the moral law. But I am honest. Anyone who claims they do perfectly obey the moral law, immediately breaks it by stating that
I love your last paragraphRomans Chapters 7 and 8
((Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful?
Certainly not!
Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”))
Paul, before his conversion, believed that the ‘Law’ was not sinful. And after his conversion, he still held that the law was not sinful. He said in ((Romans 8:7, The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.)) This understanding remains true for all time.
((Romans 7:8, For apart from the law, sin was dead.)) Paul is saying, that apart from the Law, sin does not exist. So many people, who have absolutely no faith at all in God, justify their life and actions ‘that they are righteous,’ because they see nothing to condemn them. There is nothing in nature to condemn them, and there is nothing to guide them.
Love
Love. ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ This is regarded perhaps as the only guiding principle. Love allows many things. Man can enter into many different sexual relationships – man with man, man with animal, a man with his mother – there is no word to condemn, that is -- provided love exists between those involved in whatever relationship.
And even ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself,’ is a command from the old covenant – ((Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.’ I am the Lord.))
Did Paul throw out this command along with everything else recorded in the OT Scriptures, more importantly, did Jesus throw out this command ‘to love your neighbour as yourself?’ No.
The good news throughout the New Testament is that Jesus is our sacrifice. We are each forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice and his shed blood. He is not just a ‘perfect’ lamb selected from among a flock of animals, he is the perfect Son of God who presented himself in our stead and bore our sins. We are forgiven. ((See Romans 8:1-4.))
A Change in the Law
((Hebrews 7:12-18, For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests… Jesus has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless ‘for the law made nothing perfect.’))
It was the ‘ritual’ and ‘sacrifice’ which was to cleanse from sin. Animal blood alone could make nothing perfect.
There has clearly been a change in the law.
The Levitical priesthood and its animal sacrifices were temporary measures only. Their only significance was in what they represented. They were never ever God’s last word regarding the redemption of mankind. From their inception, they were intended to point to the ‘Lamb of God’ who takes away the sins of the world. When Jesus came they ‘the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices’ lost all significance. The Book of Hebrews deals with this topic at great depth.
God’s commands regarding love to neighbour, love and honour to parents, and ‘If you love me, keep my commandments’ abide forever.
1. The law gives guidance, ((Paul would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”)) 2. The law condemns, it cannot forgive. ((Romans 7 and 8))
When I confess my sin, and I do, I recognise my sin because of these very things written in God’s Word. I don’t confess things of my own imagination and fancy. I confess on the basis of what God says is right or wrong.
I thank God that Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, and that He has cleansed me of my sin and unrighteousness. And daily he continues to do so. Amen.
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy
And i will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort but on Gods mercy
Rom9:15&16
Romans Chapters 7 and 8
((Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful?
Certainly not!
Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”))
Paul, before his conversion, believed that the ‘Law’ was not sinful. And after his conversion, he still held that the law was not sinful. He said in ((Romans 8:7, The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.)) This understanding remains true for all time.
((Romans 7:8, For apart from the law, sin was dead.)) Paul is saying, that apart from the Law, sin does not exist. So many people, who have absolutely no faith at all in God, justify their life and actions ‘that they are righteous,’ because they see nothing to condemn them. There is nothing in nature to condemn them, and there is nothing to guide them.
Love
Love. ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ This is regarded perhaps as the only guiding principle. Love allows many things. Man can enter into many different sexual relationships – man with man, man with animal, a man with his mother – there is no word to condemn, that is -- provided love exists between those involved in whatever relationship.
And even ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself,’ is a command from the old covenant – ((Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.’ I am the Lord.))
Did Paul throw out this command along with everything else recorded in the OT Scriptures, more importantly, did Jesus throw out this command ‘to love your neighbour as yourself?’ No.
The good news throughout the New Testament is that Jesus is our sacrifice. We are each forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice and his shed blood. He is not just a ‘perfect’ lamb selected from among a flock of animals, he is the perfect Son of God who presented himself in our stead and bore our sins. We are forgiven. ((See Romans 8:1-4.))
A Change in the Law
((Hebrews 7:12-18, For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests… Jesus has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless ‘for the law made nothing perfect.’))
It was the ‘ritual’ and ‘sacrifice’ which was to cleanse from sin. Animal blood alone could make nothing perfect.
There has clearly been a change in the law.
The Levitical priesthood and its animal sacrifices were temporary measures only. Their only significance was in what they represented. They were never ever God’s last word regarding the redemption of mankind. From their inception, they were intended to point to the ‘Lamb of God’ who takes away the sins of the world. When Jesus came they ‘the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices’ lost all significance. The Book of Hebrews deals with this topic at great depth.
God’s commands regarding love to neighbour, love and honour to parents, and ‘If you love me, keep my commandments’ abide forever.
1. The law gives guidance, ((Paul would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”)) 2. The law condemns, it cannot forgive. ((Romans 7 and 8))
When I confess my sin, and I do, I recognise my sin because of these very things written in God’s Word. I don’t confess things of my own imagination and fancy. I confess on the basis of what God says is right or wrong.
I thank God that Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, and that He has cleansed me of my sin and unrighteousness. And daily he continues to do so. Amen.
Not entirely correct - she said it would appear as about to fall but would in fact hold fast firm to the end. But in this case our topic is the TEN Commandments and the Westminster Confession of Faith.
And that confession admits that the Ten Commandments are -
1. Included in what it calls "the moral law of God"
2. Applicable to all mankind
3. Given in the Eden.
4. Today still applicable as TEN and not a downsized nine.
Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19
"Westminster Confession of Faith"Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1
Chapter XIXI. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
Of the Law of God
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.
===========================================
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws,
"If I said to you: If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell."Pauls message is hard to understand, impossible without the holy spirits guidance.
If i said to you:
If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell.
What is the first thought that would come into your head if you were silly enough to believe me?
Consequently if I said to you:
Heaven depends on you obeying the TC, or if you don't obey the ten commandments you will go to hell.
What is likely the first thought that will enter your head when you think of:
Thou shalt not covet?
"If I said to you: If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell."
That is precisely why I choose to follow God's Word above the word of anyone else.
When I confess my sin, and I do, I recognise my sin because of these very things written in God’s Word. I don’t confess things of my own imagination and fancy. I confess on the basis of what God says is right or wrong.
I have already addressed two major ones in my previous (post #211) – 1. Levitical priesthood, and 2. Animal sacrifices. The regulations regarding these are out – Hebrews make it quite clear. I make my judgement on the basis of the Book of Hebrews and supporting passages in the New Testament Scriptures. That gets a big portion of these requirements/instructions/commands out of the way.How would you decide which of Gods laws He desires the Christian to follow?
I believe 613 were given at Sania
Love your neighbour as yourself is definitely in, its the second most important commandment.I have already addressed two major ones in my previous (post #211) – 1. Levitical priesthood, and 2. Animal sacrifices. The regulations regarding these are out – Hebrews make it quite clear. I make my judgement on the basis of the Book of Hebrews and supporting passages in the New Testament Scriptures. That gets a big portion of these requirements/instructions/commands out of the way.
Let’s take the other commands of God ‘one by one’ and between us decide which are relevant to Christian believers today.
You go first – Is Leviticus 19:18 in or out?
((Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.’ I am the Lord.))
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