Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

SavedByGrace3 · Feb 1, 2011

They find it threatening for the same reason unbelievers in rebellion find the gospel threatening. The devil whispers into their ears that someone is putting them down or judging them. They immediately harden their heart to the message and begin to attack those who promote the goodness of God.
A very bad place to be in life.

Zeek · Feb 3, 2011

Optimax said:
Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

Because it triggers a basic instinct to protect from a threat.

What is the threat.

A person that does not understand the prosperity message, and many that do will automatically resist because they see themselves as not measuring up to the message, therefore they deny the message, ridicule the message, call the message heresy, error, vain, selfish, etc.

All this is done so that their own image of them not measuring up is hidden and protected so that they give the appearance of being "prosperous".

Greetings Optimax

That is a very big generalization.

The main reason I find the prosperity teaching difficult to digest is that I can't find a biblical precedent, and much of the material I have read concerning the teaching implies things that I don't see the Bible implying.

Many of my closer brothers and sisters in the L-rd are ardent supporters of the prosperity gospel, and the congregation I attend always has a tithe message that seems to come directly from the Kenneth Copeland ministry mind-set...it is very exuberantly promulgated, and eagerly devoured, and yet ....I cannot see it.

This is not because I am stubborn, divisive, ignorant, full of head knowledge and devoid of personal revelation etc etc, but means that when I look at the Scriptures that are used to hang this teaching on, I find they are for the most part ripped from their context and used very carelessly in an effort to support the unsupportable.

Personal testimony is not enough to substantiate the veracity of the teaching, because I have heard literally hundreds of them.

This doesn't change one iota the relationship I have with my brethren, including my friend and Pastor, there are far more important issues to engage in, but I am still open-minded, and constantly check and double check Scripture, in a whole-hearted effort to understand.

Optimax · Feb 3, 2011

Zazal said:
Greetings Optimax

That is a very big generalization.

The main reason I find the prosperity teaching difficult to digest is that I can't find a biblical precedent, and much of the material I have read concerning the teaching implies things that I don't see the Bible implying.

Many of my closer brothers and sisters in the L-rd are ardent supporters of the prosperity gospel, and the congregation I attend always has a tithe message that seems to come directly from the Kenneth Copeland ministry mind-set...it is very exuberantly promulgated, and eagerly devoured, and yet ....I cannot see it.

This is not because I am stubborn, divisive, ignorant, full of head knowledge and devoid of personal revelation etc etc, but means that when I look at the Scriptures that are used to hang this teaching on, I find they are for the most part ripped from their context and used very carelessly in an effort to support the unsupportable.

Personal testimony is not enough to substantiate the veracity of the teaching, because I have heard literally hundreds of them.

This doesn't change one iota the relationship I have with my brethren, including my friend and Pastor, there are far more important issues to engage in, but I am still open-minded, and constantly check and double check Scripture, in a whole-hearted effort to understand.

I like the way you approach it even though you do not agree with it.
I believe that make you an exception to what I posted which I believe fits the majority of those who blast it.

It took me a while to come to grips with it as well, however unlike some(does not mean you) that do not listen to the entirety of the message, and for a whole host of reasons discard it as "not true".

Continue with your study and thinking about the scriptures that have to do with giving and prospering so that you can be firmly established in whatever your final decision is concerning it.

Realize, if you haven't already, that in the true message of prosperity, money is only a part of the components that bring a prosperous life.

Blessings

Zeek · Feb 4, 2011

Optimax said:
I like the way you approach it even though you do not agree with it.
I believe that make you an exception to what I posted which I believe fits the majority of those who blast it.

It took me a while to come to grips with it as well, however unlike some(does not mean you) that do not listen to the entirety of the message, and for a whole host of reasons discard it as "not true".

Continue with your study and thinking about the scriptures that have to do with giving and prospering so that you can be firmly established in whatever your final decision is concerning it.

Realize, if you haven't already, that in the true message of prosperity, money is only a part of the components that bring a prosperous life.

Blessings

Thanks for the reply.

I think I will work my way through every post on this thread, and see if I come up with something.

I am particularly interested in the sowing and reaping principle as applied to what is still called 'Tithes and Offerings', so my main focus has to do with money, wealth and possessions, because that is what I am confronted with on a regular basis.

I was recently prayed for regarding finance, and asked what car I drove and would I like another, much bigger and far costlier....my reply was that the one I had was absolutely fine...but I was encouraged to think big, and to expect big, as G-d owns everything. I can't do it, because I think something has gone a bit wrong in that thinking somewhere, and that's not because I have a poverty mentality.

Anyway...will plough my way through the whole thread and see if it gives any further direction.

In Messiah. Zazal

CindyisHis · Feb 4, 2011

I think the main reason for prosperity is to BE a blessing. The focus is not on getting ME more so I have a bunch of stuff and and am able to indulge in the flesh. However, that being said, it is obvious that God blesses. That is His intent. The first words He spoke to mankind in the garden were his pronouncing a blessing over them, and again, when the "world" began again with Noah He did the same thing. Come over in the NT to Galatians 3 and we see Jesus was made a curse for us so the blessing of Abraham might be ours - righteousness. Go all through Psalms and Proverbs to numerous passages on how the righteous is blessed. That's us! Furthermore, we are family. God is our Father and it is His intent to care for His children. It is right and just. And He is love.

Knowing just these few things from scripture, what is it that makes one think it is His desire to do anything but prosper us. It is we who get in the way, one way or the other.

I really like this conversation b/s Zazal and Optimax. I appreciate seeing the love and respect b/w brethren. That makes it a place where God can dwell, and isn't that what we want? Him?

Shepherd1 · Feb 4, 2011

CindyisHis said:
I think the main reason for prosperity is to BE a blessing. The focus is not on getting ME more so I have a bunch of stuff and and am able to indulge in the flesh. However, that being said, it is obvious that God blesses. That is His intent. The first words He spoke to mankind in the garden were his pronouncing a blessing over them, and again, when the "world" began again with Noah He did the same thing. Come over in the NT to Galatians 3 and we see Jesus was made a curse for us so the blessing of Abraham might be ours - righteousness. Go all through Psalms and Proverbs to numerous passages on how the righteous is blessed. That's us! Furthermore, we are family. God is our Father and it is His intent to care for His children. It is right and just. And He is love.

Knowing just these few things from scripture, what is it that makes one think it is His desire to do anything but prosper us. It is we who get in the way, one way or the other.

I really like this conversation b/s Zazal and Optimax. I appreciate seeing the love and respect b/w brethren. That makes it a place where God can dwell, and isn't that what we want? Him?

These scriptures also come to mind with reference to God being our Father.

Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."

Optimax · Feb 4, 2011

Zazal said:
Thanks for the reply.

I think I will work my way through every post on this thread, and see if I come up with something.

I am particularly interested in the sowing and reaping principle as applied to what is still called 'Tithes and Offerings', so my main focus has to do with money, wealth and possessions, because that is what I am confronted with on a regular basis.

I was recently prayed for regarding finance, and asked what car I drove and would I like another, much bigger and far costlier....my reply was that the one I had was absolutely fine...but I was encouraged to think big, and to expect big, as G-d owns everything. I can't do it, because I think something has gone a bit wrong in that thinking somewhere, and that's not because I have a poverty mentality.

Anyway...will plough my way through the whole thread and see if it gives any further direction.

In Messiah. Zazal

Think up on these scripture as well. The bold should be our motive.

Eph 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more : but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
KJV

Deut 8:18
But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
KJV

Zeek · Feb 4, 2011

CindyisHis said:
I think the main reason for prosperity is to BE a blessing.

Hello Cindy,
I agree with that, and I think any Believer that prospers is able to devote finances to Kingdom projects, and be a tremendous blessing.

I remember a man who only thought of himself as a millionaire when he had given away his first million, (mostly for poor communities in Africa)

The focus is not on getting ME more so I have a bunch of stuff and and am able to indulge in the flesh. However, that being said, it is obvious that God blesses.

Yes but it is not always in finance...when I consider the blessings of G-d in my life, it has more to do with a revelation of Himself, His purposes and our destiny.

The first words He spoke to mankind in the garden were his pronouncing a blessing over them, and again, when the "world" began again with Noah He did the same thing. Come over in the NT to Galatians 3 and we see Jesus was made a curse for us so the blessing of Abraham might be ours - righteousness. Go all through Psalms and Proverbs to numerous passages on how the righteous is blessed. That's us! Furthermore, we are family. God is our Father and it is His intent to care for His children. It is right and just. And He is love.

Amen...I agree with that, and I covet the blessings available through faith, and through a deeper understanding and evidencial personal experience of my Saviour, and I love seeing in Scripture, how men and women of faith have been blessed in many ways by G-d.

Knowing just these few things from scripture, what is it that makes one think it is His desire to do anything but prosper us. It is we who get in the way, one way or the other.

I agree with that too...but I don't think that generally we get money unless we work for it, with the exception of difficult times where things might go wrong, or we make bad choices etc, then we petition Him for our needs. We have it so easy in our countries, unlike our brethren in China, or India, who often face uncompromising poverty and intermittent persecution...but still experience many blessings from G-d.

In Him. Zazal

Zeek · Feb 4, 2011

Shepherd1 said:
These scriptures also come to mind with reference to God being our Father.

Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."

Good Scriptures Shepherd, and yes they show that we come before a G-d who is not afar off, but has made an intimate way for us to fellowship with Him as sons and daughters of our Father the King.

Zeek · Feb 4, 2011

Optimax said:
Think up on these scripture as well. The bold should be our motive.

Eph 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more : but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
KJV

Funnily enough bro, this was something that G-d spoke to my spirit very recently...that for most of us, we have the means to prosper through our gifts and talents, education, skills and learning, and if we apply ourselves, there is a blessing to be had in being able to 'give to him that needeth'.

Deut 8:18
But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
KJV

I'd be interested in what you believe the thrust of this last Scripture is implying, and to whom. Thanks. Zazal

CindyisHis · Feb 4, 2011

In answer to something you said,. Zazal, I agree with you. In fact, the greatest blessing of God is not money! Not in the least! The greatest blessing is Himself! He is my shield and exceeding great reward!

Money is just something we need in this life, and He does provide. And yes, I believe a person ought to work, and work at that which they are called to and created for.

Optimax · Feb 5, 2011

Zazal said:
I'd be interested in what you believe the thrust of this last Scripture is implying, and to whom. Thanks. Zazal

Has to do with giving into ministries that preach the Gospel and do His work.

Zeek · Feb 5, 2011

Optimax said:
Deut 8:18
But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
KJV

I'd be interested in what you believe the thrust of this last Scripture is implying, and to whom.

Click to expand...

Has to do with giving into ministries that preach the Gospel and do His work.

Could you elucidate, as I am none the wiser with what you are implying, and I have read over the Scripture in English from various translations, and also in the Hebrew. I know what I think it is talking about, but as you suggested I look at it, I would really like to understand where this Scripture stands in relation to prosperity. Thanks. Zazal

Optimax · Feb 6, 2011

For us today God's covenant is the NT and what it teaches.

By supporting ministries that are teaching NT truths we are using our wealth(money,time) to help establish the NT in the earth today. That would be to get people saved, healed, delivered, set free, etc.

Zeek · Feb 7, 2011

Optimax said:
For us today God's covenant is the NT and what it teaches.

By supporting ministries that are teaching NT truths we are using our wealth(money,time) to help establish the NT in the earth today. That would be to get people saved, healed, delivered, set free, etc.

aHA...I see that, and have no problems with it, although I still don't see how the Scripture in Deut 8:18 slots in.

Funnily enough the Pastors sermon yesterday was called 'Prosperity' but was really an extension of everything that properity meant, and how that G-d wanted us to prosper in every area of our lives...again not something I have a problem with.

alancrookham · Feb 7, 2011

Here is my view on this: God wants us all to be millionaires, absolutely, He wants us to be as prosperous as we will be in heaven where the streets are paved with gold and the foundations are precious jewels. BUT, He does not want us living selfish, spoiled, self seeking little lives where all the money He gives us is spent on a stupid luxury car to make yourself look good instead of funding the Gospel and bringing souls into the Kingdom.

I myself am a pretty prosperous guy, especially for a missionary. I have a home that was given to me, I pay nothing on it, plus two others, one that I rent and one that another missionary owns and is open for me to use any time I like for as long as I like. I have a prosperous translation business, I am investing in a dairy farm which eventually will bring in thousands of dollars a month, and I also have several churches and individuals who support New Heights Ministries. But you know what all that stuff is used for? To bring people into the Kingdom. We produce cds, buy Bibles, travel frequently, we have supported dozens of missionaries over the years and helped them get started in their own ministries. The sole purpose of that dairy farm I mentioned is to help fund the crusades we are holding around the world. The houses are because we travel all the time and need places to live. We have planted and built five churches, and the list goes on. THAT is what God wants us to do with our prosperity. For some people it is His MERCY that they aren't wealthy because they are so selfish, and barely even think about HIM or what is good for His kingdom that they would destroy themselves spiritually if they had any more.

We need to seek Jesus, and bless Him with everything we have, not sit around trying to bless ourselves. Bless others, and He will bless you, so that you can become a river of blessing, not some stank old lake that will dry up eventually.

Alan
http://www.newheightsministries.net

Optimax · Feb 7, 2011

Zazal said:
aHA...I see that, and have no problems with it, although I still don't see how the Scripture in Deut 8:18 slots in.

Funnily enough the Pastors sermon yesterday was called 'Prosperity' but was really an extension of everything that properity meant, and how that G-d wanted us to prosper in every area of our lives...again not something I have a problem with.

Deut 8:18
But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
KJV

His covenant in effect is the Bible. Especially for today is the New Testament. He gives us money so that we can help establish it.

By supporting ministries that are teaching NT truths we are using our wealth(money,time) to help establish the NT in the earth today. That would be to get people saved, healed, delivered, set free, etc.

Hope that is clearer.

Zeek · Feb 7, 2011

Yes I understand what you are getting at, and what Alan has explained, although I think some people are better gifted to earn large amounts of money , I don't really think G-d wants us all to be millionaires....it is a body ministry, some are adept at making money, and the result is to further the kingdom by wise use of finance...but most of us are fairly regular types of earners, and yet also contribute to the Kingdom our finances in proportion, and maybe have gifting in other areas that are also effective.

I wonder how many prosperity teachers have stupid luxury cars, or planes...thats not a question by the way, just me thinking aloud with a tinge of cynicism mixed with a hint of personal observation. But seriously I am well aware that many ministries have had great wealth and used it to further the Gospel, and like Alan have built buildings for congregations, and supported non-millionaire ministries.

Servant.DujmovJr · Feb 11, 2011

bobznew said:
bobznew said:

I have an idea of my own. But first, here's a few Scriptures...

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this matter.

Click to expand...

Let me first say that I believe in "mountain moving faith" and I don't want to come across as a nay-sayer of faith teachings.....However, I do have a problem with prosperity teachings.
Not that I have a problem with prosperity; on the contrary, I am all for God blessing His children and I do believe He wants His children to prosper.

Here are some of the reasons that I find the teachings a little disturbing:
James 2:14-17 What does it profit, my brethren, If someone says that he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, one of you sayso them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and be filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, f it does not have works, is dead. Now, if a brother or sister who is saved and attending a church that has prosperity teaching comes into the church with true needs; they will most likely be sent out with a hope and a prayer, saying, "believe God for your needs." Not everyone has the same amount of strength in faith; and some just are not strong enough for "believing God for their needs." Do we just send them away and shake our heads at their weakness and lack of faith?
1Timothy 6:6 Now Godliness with contentment is great gain. And, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you...And, gives us this day our daily bread. Sometimes prosperity teachings sometimes leave people feeling ashamed of being content. If you are poor and happy; why must you believe God to prosper you? Is it not okay to be poor and happy? If you are not believing God to prosper you, are you weak in faith?
Alot of prosperity teaching has to do with the law of moses (as does the tithe, but that's another topic) If you live by one part of the law; you must live by the whole law.
I love the word of faith. I believe that the works that Christ did so shall we do, greater works still. But, prosperity teaching has never really felt right in my heart. Not that I don't believe in prosperity, I do. I just don't like the way it is sought after.
Peace unto you
Steve

Alive_Again · Feb 12, 2011

Hello Steve. Seeking God about so many things. I've been too busy to do justice to all things. One comment about "prosperity teachings"...

Now, if a brother or sister who is saved and attending a church that has prosperity teaching comes into the church with true needs; they will most likely be sent out with a hope and a prayer, saying, "believe God for your needs."

So many things have a "stigma" about it many times because the enemy moves in to cloud the issue and make things an offense. Also, covetousness by some seems to throw the entire matter into a "guilt by association" thing that people of balance want to steer clear of, or be cautious about. There's some baggage associated by the world (and Christians) because of the example set by others.

Overall, the prosperity thing as we might think of it is very complicated (to the natural man) because it is so against everything the world makes it. We're not of the world so with some measure of guilt people try to make sense of things. Not every scenario is dealt with the same in giving, so many Christians just "do what they believe is right" and do it in a measure of faith and hope in the goodness of God to sort it all out. Some requests for help are not righteous.

It's probably not a good thing to acknowledge the mistakes of others (as your final "take" in a matter) because the enemy's typically involved and he can make a good dish taste bad with his measure of filth attached to it.

...Godliness with contentment is great gain.
...seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you
...give us this day our daily bread.

These are all wonderful foundational truths that keep us from striving in the flesh.

If you are poor and happy; why must you believe God to prosper you?

You can be, but I believe you can live beneath your privilege. As a king in training and a joint heir (also in training), you are a son with the resources of God who wants to give you the kingdom. More importantly, He's interested in our heart condition, and won't give us things that will separate us from Him. The enemy gladly will. We have to pass God's tests of contentment and obedience.

I think that the church at large has a good deal of "false humility" (very well intended), but misplaced due to ignorance. A renewing of the mind (not just selectively about money) is to live by God's perspective. God has plans for us that exceed our imagination, yet many don't enter into this and their lives often greatly resemble how they lived before they knew God (with the exception of going to church and tacking on a lot of "don'ts in the behavior column).

Although the primary vision is to be conformed to the image of Jesus, ultimately God would like to use us to give big! If we don't have it, we can't give it. If you have resources, you can enable the gospel to be spread much faster. That's why the enemy will fight you harder on prosperity than even healing.

If we take your example scenario and most people in church outside of their tithe might be able to chip in, the odds of meeting a serious need is rather small. To the one who's funneling the resources of the kingdom, it's no problem at all. God's in the business of meeting needs and our heart condition and lack of knowledge are often the only things getting in the way of Him doing a lot more than He does.

The reason some people get turned away is because the church is suffering financially as well. Even churches have to be do'ers of the Word to fully prosper.

You mention the Law of Moses. That was written to God's servants. Their prosperity covered every area of life from financial to social and physical. The sons have a better covenant! If anything it shows us that in any covenant, if you obey God's voice with all of your heart, He will definitely prosper you.

There are many occasions where God would like you to prophesy to someone who really needs it, or lay hands on some sick person, or give sizeably to someone who really needs it, but due to lack of understanding and revelation knowledge (renewal), we're shaking hands and telling people we're glad to see them when we should be ministering to them. We might give a little if the pastor advertises a need, but if we were walking in God's perspective, we'd be prospering enough to meet the need and believe to be able to receive to meet our need. We'd be hearing God say give $500 to someone we don't know and wouldn't worry about meeting our bills. We would have heard God's voice and believed in the good news about God meeting your (as a giver) needs. We now rebuke the voice that said give $500 because that couldn't have been God because you need it to be able to cover your rent.

If prosperity really meant God could tell His children to give anything they had and still have faith for their own needs, in time, their would be a whole lot more rejoicing going on! Where we often are, any voice saying to give like this might kick in the cares of this world and our supernatural giving (and receiving) gets choked at the starting gate.

There have been many times when we felt compelled to give that an angel was standing beside you compelling you to give (unexplainably). That's one of the things they do. If you believe God prospers you to meet your needs, He commissions angels to bring about circumstances to make that happen. Since they hearken to the voice of God's Word, if you don't agree with the Word in what you say, you'll hinder God from doing what His Word says. You'll be left wondering why you were foolish enough to have even considered believing a "prosperity gospel" (of a full supply).

We're not under Law to tithe, but tithing to honor God was before the Law, going back to the friend of God -- Abraham. When you tithe, you're putting faith in God to be able to meet your needs. It's a supernatural act of faith. They say we're all tithing to something. If you don't tithe to God you'll tithe to your doctor or your dentist or mechanic!

But, prosperity teaching has never really felt right in my heart.

It is possible that we're hearing and acknowledging the enemy (unintentionally). From what I hear you saying, I basically agree with your take on it, but I don't want to leave the enemy on top (with his crappy taste in our mouths) on any doctrine of scripture.

An odd example, but if Jesus were in your church and He had a house (like us) and worked to provide His living, you can bet if God told Him to give His entire rent check to a stranger, He would believe God to make His rent. No barriers. I know this is a wild example.

The point is supernatural provision by supernatural hearing without natural censors getting in the way. I see this as a long way away from being concerned about what some group did to give it a bad name. Not even worth mentioning really. If we don't believe in supernatural provision, we limit God's work in our lives. We can be poor and content, but apart from a season in your life to pass God's tests, I don't see this meeting a lot of financial needs or providing for the message getting out.

Does this sound reasonable to you? I'm not knocking your perspective, but want to enlarge it to accommodate a big God doing big things for a lot of people without fear getting in the way.

Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

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