Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad said:

In 1 Thes. 4 Paul DOES NOT TELL US a final destination. Period. That was my point. It is not there. No matter how hard a pretribber looks for a direction to heaven, IT IS NOT THERE. No matter how hard a posttribber looks for a direction down to earth IT IS NOT THERE.

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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 tell us about the Coming of the Lord which is the same Coming of the Lord who will descend down to the Earth to DESTROY His ennenies at His Coming and establish His Kingdom on the Earth prophesied by all the prophets of the Old Testament and by Jesus Himself In Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19.

Verse 15 Unto the Coming of the Lord....

Verse 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven ...this tell us the final destination which is the Earth.

Verse 17 Our caught up and gathering unto JESUS in the air at His coming after the Tribulation will be like the Ark in Noah's time while that Jesus will destroy His ennemies (Those who will have bow to the AC/Beast/Satan and taken the mark)...

Bible2+ said:

Yes.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).



Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.



Note that the rapture won't be just a going up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

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The woman is Israel and remains Israel throughout chapter 12. Revelation 12:1. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel she wears the sun which is Jacob, who is Israel She wears or carries the name Israel, as this is Jacobs God given name. The moon is Rachel Joseph and Benjamin's mother. Rachel is recognized as the primary matriarch of Israel. As shown in Jeremiah 31:15 and Matthew 2:18. She was also the woman who Jacob loved very much. Jacob was duped by Laban and Rachel was withheld for another 7 years. Genesis 37:9-10 gives us a very clear explanation of this.

The woman, the nation of Israel gave us Jesus, the Son of Man, or Man Child. We can see the dragon comes down to make war with Israel, Revelation 12:13-14 but she is protected either supernaturally, or by some other means. She maintains this protection while she is in "her" place, which is inside the boundaries of Israel. After the dragon realizes she has protection she turns to make war against Christians and right standing Jews. Revelation 12:17. The ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus, are Christians. How could the dragon attack the woman (who you claim is the church), then turn from attacking her, because of the protection granted? only to make war against the church again (those who hold the testimony of Jesus), clearly the church. The church is the seed of the woman and those who hold her commandments (also her seed) are the right standing Jews, around the world. The woman in no way shape or form is the church in Revelation 12. Her seed in verse 17 are right standing Jews outside of the boundaries of Israel, and Christians. Really, it all comes down to listening to Genesis 37:9-10 because Joseph's dream, explains it all.

how could you say the woman is the church and in Revelation 12:13-14 she is granted protection. So the dragon can't get to her so he goes and attacks the church in Revelation 12:17 the ones who hold the testimony of Jesus. (THE CHURCH). So the dragon can't get to the church so he turns to attack the church? Your answer is in Genesis 37:9-10.

Fusion77 said:

Are you seriously trying to say that the final 3.5 years doesn't happen between the 6th and 7th trumpets? Revelation 11:2-3 run concurrently and end just before the 7th trumpet. But, you're saying they don't? Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 11:19 both mention great earthquakes.


How could you ever say the 2 witnesses aren't caught up just before the 7th trumpet? Revelation 11:12 Revelation 11:15 then the 7th angel sounded. How many trumpets are there after the 7th anyways? How many more until we get to the last, according to your belief?


Really it doesn't matter to me, as I know the truth. The danger is you willgive other people false hope. You yourself should be prepared, for what truly awaits. In 5 years, probably less, you'll understand.

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I don't just think the final 3.5 years will not be between the 6th and 7th trumpet I KNOW IT WILL NOT BE. Years ago God sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked," and told me how to find it. Then He said, "you could also find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" Then He told me how to find it.

The 70th week is indeed "clearly marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. So the second half of the week goes from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.

Did you not pay any attention to what Jesus told people when they see the abomination?

Mat. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

We see this beginning right here:

Rev. 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

We know then that Rev. 12:6 is only a second or two after the 7th trumpet has sounded in heaven to mark the time of the abomination on earth.

Revelation 11:2-3 run concurrently and end just before the 7th trumpet

You have completely missed the intent of the Author.

Here is John's true chronology:
11:1-2 the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. (After all, if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem.) He will probably arrive about 3 1/2 days before he enters the temple and does the abominable thing. The city will then be trampled for the next 42 months.

11:3 the two witnesses show up just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week, and begin their testimony. they will testify for 1260 days, which will take them to exactly 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then raise up (with all the Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial.
11:14 -15 the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven marking the exact midpoint of the week on earth.


Now, here is what you missed: Rev. 11:3-13 is written as a PARENTHESES and has no bearing on Chronology. John takes us on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week with them only. It only appears like these things happen in chapter 11. In reality they don't. They happen near the END of the week.

Next, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week - 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses begin their testifying.
There is worship in heaven, but at the same moment in time, perhaps a second or two later, those living in Judea see the abomination and FLEE (Rev. 12:6)

Because the 7th trumpet marks the END of the reign of Satan as the god of this world (the 6000 year lease of Adam expires or runs out) then at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus.

For the same reason, (earth lease ran out) Michael goes to battle with Satan and defeats him and he is cast down to earth, very angry.

The dragon goes after the woman who fled, but she has supernatural protection and will be protected for 3 1/2 years.

Then shortly after the Beast's 42 months will begin.

So all of the 5 mentions of the last half of the week, whether in days, months or years all run PARALLEL to the end of the week.

The two witnesses BEGIN their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. the 7th trumpet MARKS the midpoint. So 11:4-13 are a parenthesis. It may at first SEEM like they die before the 7th trumpet, but in reality they die before the 7th vial. ALL these countdowns to the end will end near the 7th vial that ends the week.

Fusion77 said:

The woman is Israel and remains Israel throughout chapter 12. Revelation 12:1. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel she wears the sun which is Jacob, who is Israel She wears or carries the name Israel, as this is Jacobs God given name. The moon is Rachel Joseph and Benjamin's mother. Rachel is recognized as the primary matriarch of Israel. As shown in Jeremiah 31:15 and Matthew 2:18. She was also the woman who Jacob loved very much. Jacob was duped by Laban and Rachel was withheld for another 7 years. Genesis 37:9-10 gives us a very clear explanation of this.

Good job here! In fact, because Jacob had to work an extra 7 years, the 70th week was also called the time of "Jacob's trouble." However, I don't think Rachael was withheld for 7 years. She was withheld until Jacob agreed to work another 7 years.

The woman, the nation of Israel gave us Jesus, the Son of Man, or Man Child. We can see the dragon comes down to make war with Israel, Revelation 12:13-14 but she is protected either supernaturally, or by some other means. She maintains this protection while she is in "her" place, which is inside the boundaries of Israel. After the dragon realizes she has protection she turns to make war against Christians and right standing Jews. Revelation 12:17. The ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus, are Christians. How could the dragon attack the woman (who you claim is the church), then turn from attacking her, because of the protection granted? only to make war against the church again (those who hold the testimony of Jesus), clearly the church. The church is the seed of the woman and those who hold her commandments (also her seed) are the right standing Jews, around the world. The woman in no way shape or form is the church in Revelation 12. Her seed in verse 17 are right standing Jews outside of the boundaries of Israel, and Christians. Really, it all comes down to listening to Genesis 37:9-10 because Joseph's dream, explains it all.

Sorry, but you miss it here. The 12th chapter is God introducing John to the Dragon and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. But God CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID when Jesus was born: he tried to MURDER Him! He used King Herod. So the first five verses of chapter 12 are written as a parenthesis and have very little to do with the rest of the chapter. Chapter 12 is a MIDPOINT chapter. By the way, "her place" is probably the city of Petra where she will flee to, NOT Israel.

John used an interesting word here, "remnant," or what is left over. Left over from WHAT? Of course the pretrib rapture! At the midpoint there is only a remnant left of believers in Jesus because the MAIN LOAD was taken to heaven.

how could you say the woman is the church and in Revelation 12:13-14 she is granted protection. So the dragon can't get to her so he goes and attacks the church in Revelation 12:17 the ones who hold the testimony of Jesus. (THE CHURCH). So the dragon can't get to the church so he turns to attack the church? Your answer is in Genesis 37:9-10.

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The woman is NOT the church: the woman is to represent ISRAEL as you well know. Good job here.

iamlamad said:

I don't just think the final 3.5 years will not be between the 6th and 7th trumpet I KNOW IT WILL NOT BE. Years ago God sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked," and told me how to find it. Then He said, "you could also find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" Then He told me how to find it.

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Build a time machine and set it to a time about 2,000 years ago or buy a copy of the book "The Atonement Clock" by Christian Gedge.

457 BC ---------------------------69 weeks--------------------------------> 27 AD --70th (30 AD= middle of week) week--> 34 AD


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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iamlamad said:

The woman is NOT the church: the woman is to represent ISRAEL as you well know. Good job here.

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As every Christian with a proper knowledge of the New Testament teachings should well know: Every person who believes in God and accepts Jesus' atoning sacrifice, is deemed by God to be an Israelite by faith and therefore His Church. Romans 9:6-8
What you say, Lamad and Fusion77, is patently untrue and only believed in order to support a rapture removal of the Church, while the Jews remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation. A complete fabrication.

Re the 'woman, and the rest of her offspring, of Rev.12: There are two other mentions of a separation of the people of God in the last days:
Daniel 11:32 says: one group 'are ready to violate the Covenant' and the other are 'faithful to their God'.
Zechariah 14:2b says:.... half of the city will go into exile, while the rest remain there.
The Covenant will be the one God makes with His people, as they all settle into all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 31:31-34 The violation will be when 'the many sign a treaty of peace with the Anti-Christ', Daniel 9:27 It will be the treaty of death. Isaiah 29:14-15
So when the AC breaks this treaty at the mid point, those who refused to agree with it, will be taken to safety on earth and the 'many' who did agree, will have to face the GT. 1260 days later Jesus will Return and gather the 'woman' those righteous people from the distant location, where they have lived safely for that 3.5 years. Matthew 24:31

As for thinking the 70th 'week' has happened in 27 to 34 AD, this is another, preterist fabrication.

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This "wonder" is a great sign in the heavens. The "woman" here is not the church, for a church building has never delivered any child. This "mother" has nothing to do with the church. This woman is "Israel", the twelve sons of Jacob, or tribes [John 16:21].

Revelation 12:2 "And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."
This "child" to be delivered is the Messiah, and the woman delivering the child is the symbol of "Israel", however, in the physical sense of this earth age, we call her "Mary". It is Satan's sole purpose to destroy this child. This woman is the wife and the son of Almighty God, and God wants us to feel and understand the events occurring then. What happens to them affects Him, exactly as it would you or I in a similar case.

iamlamad said in post 6357:

Pretrib points to John 14 - and with good reason.

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Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

iamlamad said in post 6357:

Posttrib points to Matthew 24 for no reason at all except a gathering. There is no scripture anywhere to prove that gathering is Paul's gathering, but there are scriptures that prove it is NOT.

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Actually, nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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iamlamad said in post 6363:

Because the 7th trumpet marks the END of the reign of Satan as the god of this world (the 6000 year lease of Adam expires or runs out) then at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus.

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Regarding "the 6000 year lease of Adam", note that 6,000 years since Adam could have occurred over a century ago. For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it is curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it is curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

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iamlamad said in post 6364:

. . . the 70th week was also called the time of "Jacob's trouble."

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Actually, the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation, for believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Fusion77 said in post 6362:

The woman, the nation of Israel gave us Jesus, the Son of Man, or Man Child.

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Actually, in Revelation 12:5 the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

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Also, note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Similarly, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Similarly, the book of Hebrews is about the church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

Similarly, John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

keras said in post 6366:

Every person who believes in God and accepts Jesus' atoning sacrifice, is deemed by God to be an Israelite by faith and therefore His Church. Romans 9:6-8

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That's right.

For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

Because of what Jesus told us and because it makes sense. If your kids are out playing in a field and you know a tornado is coming to the park they are playing at what would you do? Your kids are unaware it is coming but you know EXACTLY when it is coming. What do you do? You go get them!! You wish you could bring them all, but you respect the other ones' choices to not be with you...so you leave them be.

tanzel said:

I notice theres not one scripture or verse from the Bible to help with your apple experiment. I don't follow your point, but I do understand a little math, but not the Lord's math. A day to God is a thousand years to us on earth, so I'll just stick to the book. In 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. So if the Lord say in the mist of the week, I'm sure out of seven days we can a day that represents the mist of the week. Lets take a look Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I can see that you do not understand these things so I'll enlighten you a little. Jesus started his ministry at the age of thirty...why?...lets take a look in Numbers 4:3 From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This is the law to do service, still good to this day. Lets take a look in Jesus time in Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

So Jesus taught for about 3 1/2 years, which made him about 33 1/2 half years when died, give or take...and Jesus died on a Wednesday which was the midst of the week as the prophets Daniel prophesies. I can prove that Jesus died on a Wednesday, but before I do, I need to know if you understand thus far, or are you going to stick with the apples experiment...lol. If so I believe I'm done.

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My point is simple, to divide a week into half and end up with 1260 days or 42 months or 3.5 years as the SECOND half requires an ENTIRE APPLE to divide, or in this case the ENTIRE WEEK. This entire week is still future to us today. There is no scripture anywhere showing Jesus ministry lasted exactly 3.5 years. But we have five different mentions of the LAST 3.5 years given in Revelation.

My only point was that the ENTIRE WEEK is still ahead of us.

in the midst of the week

To divide the week and end up with a half week left we must have the ENTIRE WEEK. In your theory you wish to divide only a half which would end up with quarters. The ENTIRE WEEK is still ahead of us.

iamlamad said:

There is no scripture anywhere showing Jesus ministry lasted exactly 3.5 years.

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From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby came here.


Daniel 9:27


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
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Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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Jaxxi said:

Because of what Jesus told us and because it makes sense. If your kids are out playing in a field and you know a tornado is coming to the park they are playing at what would you do? Your kids are unaware it is coming but you know EXACTLY when it is coming. What do you do? You go get them!! You wish you could bring them all, but you respect the other ones' choices to not be with you...so you leave them be.

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Lets suppose that Jesus is the tornado who will destroy the unfaithful unto His Coming and gather his children (elect) unto Him for protection in that Day.
Here is how the message is written in the Bible.

Matthew 24;29-31
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive and remain, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

keras said in post 6366:
Every person who believes in God and accepts Jesus' atoning sacrifice, is deemed by God to be an Israelite by faith and therefore His Church. Romans 9:6-8

Bible2+ said:

That's right:
For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

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This Bible truth totally destroys the pre-trib rapture theory, that demands a separation between Church and Israel.

Jaxxi, you are a good mother who would do anything to care for your children, just as God will for His children. But we are just physical humans, not spiritual beings, as yet anyway. So God doesn't plan to remove us from the earth, many prophesies tell how all the Lord's righteous people will be protected during His Day of wrath. Then, there is still work for us do to here: we Christians must be 'a light to the nations and God's witnesses. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

Bible2+ said:

Actually, in Revelation 12:5 the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

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Also, note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Similarly, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Similarly, the book of Hebrews is about the church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

Similarly, John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

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Well, I'm sorry I disagree the correct interpretation is that the woman is Israel. Genesis 37:9-10 holds the CLEAR explanation. The stars, the sun the moon are all present and explained. This dream, of course, was before "she" was a nation. But, gee why follow the clear interpretation of scripture anyway, right.

Now that we have a clear understanding of who the woman is, before the church was born, the Lord was born on earth through Israel. Revelation 12:2 Revelation 12:4 is speaking of the nation of Israel in a time of persecution, wherein, Herod ordered every male child 2 and under killed...that's the trevail to the woman who is Israel. Explained here. Of course, the moon (Rachel) is weeping. Matthew 2:17-18. The Son of Man, or Man Child is Christ. Revelation 12:5 is speaking of Him. Psalms 2:7-9 A clear explanation that Jehovahs Son, who will rule the nations with a Rod of iron. Isaiah 11:4. After He is caught up to the right hand of the father, He gives birth to the church on the day of Pentecost. Very clear, very straightforward, no need to travel down rabbit trails.


This supports a post trib rapture. Because after the nation of Israel is protected in "her" borders, the dragon wages war on her seed (both through Christ, and also genetically who keep the commandments) which = Christians and right standing Jews. Revelation 12:17 mentions Christians, who will be here...because it tells us right here. We're grafted in by faith through Christ. None of that was possible until after the cross. After He was caught up it was possible, Revelation 12:5 before the cross, not possible for a Gentile to be grafted into the "tree of righteous Jews", as it is by faith in Christ. So then we (Christians) are the seed of the woman because of Christ. So Revelation 12:17 is speaking of Christians and right standing Jews outside the borders of Israel, who the dragon will wage war upon...because the "woman" Israel will be protected in Her borders. The Church didn't give birth to Christ, but rather Christ gave birth to the church.

Really, why not just take what the bible says directly? Genesis 37:9-10. Psalms 2:7-9

Fusion77 said:

Well, I'm sorry I disagree the correct interpretation is that the woman is Israel. Genesis 37:9-10 holds the CLEAR explanation. The stars, the sun the moon are all present and explained. This dream, of course, was before "she" was a nation. But, gee why follow the clear interpretation of scripture anyway, right.

Now that we have a clear understanding of who the woman is before the church was born the Lord was born on earth through Israel. Revelation 12:2 Revelation 12:4 is speaking of the nation of Israel in a time of persecution, wherein, Herod ordered every male child 2 and under killed...that's the trevail to the woman who is Israel. Explained here. Of course, the moon (Rachel) is weeping. Matthew 2:17-18. The Son of Man, or Man Child is Christ. Revelation 12:5 is speaking of Him. Psalms 2:7-9 A clear explanation that Jehovahs Son, who will rule the nations with a Rod of iron. Isaiah 11:4. After He is caught up to the right hand of the father, He gives birth to the church on the day of Pentecost. Very clear, very straightforward, no need to travel down rabbit trails.


This supports a post trib rapture. Because after the nation of Israel is protected in "her" borders, the dragon wages war on her seed (both through Christ, and also genetically who keep the commandments) which = Christians and right standing Jews. Revelation 12:17 mentions Christians, who will be here...because it tells us right here. We're grafted in by faith through Christ. None of that was possible until after the cross. After He was caught up it was possible, Revelation 12:5 before the cross, not possible for a Gentile to be grafted into the "tree of righteous Jews", as it is by faith in Christ. So then we (Christians) are the seed of the woman because of Christ. So Revelation 12:17 is speaking of Christians and right standing Jews outside the borders of Israel, who the dragon will wage war upon...because the "woman" Israel will be protected in Her borders. The Church didn't give birth to Christ, but rather Christ gave birth to the church.

Really, why not just take what the bible says directly? Genesis 37:9-10. Psalms 2:7-9

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Really, why not just take what the bible says directly?

That would certainly solve a lot of problems seen on this thread!

Great response, Fusion77.

iamlamad said:

Really, why not just take what the bible says directly?
That would certainly solve a lot of problems seen on this thread!

Great response, Fusion77.

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It's the truth of who are the Israel of God, which is exactly the same as the Church [Ekkelasia] of God, is where you rapture believers fall into error.
Thinking that true, righteous Israel is the arrogant, apostate, atheistic, homophobes, etc, who currently occupy a small part of the holy Land, is actually laughable.
And if you think they will miraculously change, then you haven't read much Bible prophecy. Ezekiel 21:4, Jeremiah 13:19, Zephaniah 1:4-6, Luke 19:27, Matthew 21:41-43

keras said:

It's the truth of who are the Israel of God, which is exactly the same as the Church [Ekkelasia] of God, is where you rapture believers fall into error.
Thinking that true, righteous Israel is the arrogant, apostate, atheistic, homophobes, etc, who currently occupy a small part of the holy Land, is actually laughable.
And if you think they will miraculously change, then you haven't read much Bible prophecy. Ezekiel 21:4, Jeremiah 13:19, Zephaniah 1:4-6, Luke 19:27, Matthew 21:41-43

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I'm confused. Are you saying Revelation 12:5 is not speaking of Jesus? Psalms 2:7-9 Jehovahs son? John 20:17 Acts 1:9-11 Romans 8:34. All these are very clear that Revelation 12:5 is speaking of the Son of Man or Man Child, there's really no way around Psalms 2:7-9. It was Christ who ascended Acts 1:9-11 (was caught up), to the right hand of the Father. It is He who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Or do you also dispute the fact that Revelation 12:5 is speaking of Christ?