Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Postvieww · Nov 27, 2015

tanzel said:
Lets start with the first and second head...we will start this study in Daniel chapter 2. Each nation or people had a chance to rule, but only one people ran the entire world, and that was the sons of Japheth. The Bible speaks of other great nations such as Egypt and her Pharaohs, and also Israel and her Kings but, these people never rule the entire world. The sons of Japheth are called Gentiles. This has nothing to do with religion or beliefs. Gentiles are simply sons of Japheth. We will start at the beginning of the Gentile dynasty with the King of Babylon, which was Nebuchadnezzar. We will end this study at the Roman Empire. Today you will find out all that was written in your history book was already written by the Prophets. You will see that man could in no way have tampered with the Holy Scriptures on the scale that some believe. Let’s get started, watch how history lines up with the Holy Scripture.

Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and the dream troubled him. The problem was he could not remember or understand the dream. The King called all of his wise men and told them if they did not tell him the dream he would cut them in pieces

Daniel 2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him. 2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to show the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. 3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream. 4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.

5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.

The Kings wise men could not tell him the dream. The King then put out a decree to kill all the wise men, the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to be put to death. The Kings guard also sought Daniel Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, these four were among the captives of Israel. Daniel asked Arioch the captain of the king's guard, why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel. Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would show the king the interpretation. Daniel prayed to the God of Heaven and he answered Daniel in a vision by night. Daniel was brought to the King and gave him the interpretation of the dream.

Daniel 2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation. 26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? 27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king; 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. 30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

There is no need for a person to try to interpret the Word of God, all you have to do is continue to read and your entire question will be answered. What did the image represent?

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Notice what is says, wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Where ever men or fowl or beast of the field were Nebuchadnezzar had rule over them. He was also the head of gold on the image. Look at the next verse. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Notice what it says, after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, in verse 39 after the head of gold the image breast and arms were made of silver, this would represent the second kingdom.The third part of the image the belly and thighs of brass, represented the third kingdom that will rule the entire earth. Look at the next verse.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Remember in verse 33 when it said the feet of the image was mix with iron and clay. Here in the 40th verse the iron represent the fourth kingdom to rule the earth. If you continue to read your question will be answered. The next verses are future. Pay close attention to 44th and 45th verses.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Look at verse 44, it says in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. This verse lets you know these kings or kingdom will rule until the Lord comes. Look at verse 45, who is this stone cut out without hands? Look at this verse in Psalms 18.

Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

The Lord is that Stone that will destroy these kingdoms at his second coming.

The next set of scriptures will show how the second kingdom came into power.

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

What are the 4 beast and what do they represent? Let’s go to Daniel chapter 5 and find a couple of these beast and find out what they mean. The Bible can speak of it’s self, there is no reason for anyone to try and guests what’s on the Lord’s mind, all you have to do is read it and take it for what it says.

In Daniel chapter 5 Belshazzar made a serious mistake, that very night he lost his life. When he lost his life another kingdom came into power. Here you will begin to see how recorded history lines up with the word of God. Take a look at who took over form Belshazzar after his death.

Daniel 5:1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. 2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. 5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaster of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. 6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. 7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and show me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.

Once again Daniel was called to give an interpretation of a vision. Look what Daniel told the king.

Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

The king asked and Daniel gave it to him. Take a look.

Daniel 5:25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. 29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

As you see the kingdom was given to the Medes/Persian Empire after Belshazzar was killed. Before we move into recorded history we will list all the parts to the image and what they represent.

This image represent the entire Gentile ruler ship as seen by Nebuchadnezzar in the 2nd chapter of Daniel. Head of gold: Represents the Babylonian Empire. Breasts and arms of silver: Represents the Medo-Persian Empire Belly and thighs of brass: Represents the Greek Empire. Legs of iron: Represents the Roman Empire Feet part iron and party clay with the toes: Represent the ten nations combined to make up the European Common market

Keep these in mind as we go through the study.

This is a from Funk and Wagnall’s Encyclopedia under BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY.

BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY or BABYLONIAN EXILE, term applied to the period between the deportation of the Jews from Palestine to Babylon by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II and their release in 538 BC by the Persian king Cyrus. Two main deportations are recorded: one in 597 BC, when Israelite nobles, warriors, and artisans were transported; and one in 586 BC when Nebuchadnezzar's army destroyed Jerusalem, and the major part of the remaining Israelite community was taken to Babylon. At the time of the second deportation an important group of Israelites fled to Egypt; thereafter, only the poorest peasants were allowed to remain in Palestine, and the political dissolution of independent Israel was an accomplished fact. The majority of the Jews living in Babylon did not return to Palestine at the end of the exile period, but became a part of the Diaspora, or body of Jews dispersed among nations outside Palestine.

Darius the Median wasn’t mentioned is. Why? The Medes were not as powerful as the Persian Empire. That’s why history jumps to Cyrus the Great. Some of the Persian Kings took on the tile of Darius this let you know that the Medes were there first.

Now we will return to the scripture going to the Book of Ezra showing Cyrus reign, and what was his dealing with children of Israel.

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem. 5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

Take a look at verse 2, Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Notice what it says, “The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth”. This let you know Cyrus ran the entire earth. Not only that, the Lord gave him an order to rebuild His temple at Jerusalem, using only the children of Israel. If you read further in Ezra you would find out that the people of the land tried to help. The Lord used only His People (Israel) to build the temple. Take a look at this in Ezra chapter 2.

Ezra 2:1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; 64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

Let’s return to world history and see if it lines up with the scripture. This is from Funk and Wagnall’s encyclopedia. Remember Cyrus has inherited the kingdom from the Babylonians.

CYRUS THE GREAT (c. 600-529 BC), king of Persia (550-529 BC). He was the son of Cambyses I, a descendant of Achaemenes (Hakhamanish) (fl. 681 BC), and a member of the Achaemenid dynasty. When Cyrus became ruler (558 BC) of the Persian district of Anshan, the district was subject to the Medes; in 593 BC he led a rebellion against the Medes that resulted in the capture of King Astyages (r. about 584-c. 550 BC) and the overthrow (550 BC) of the Median Empire. Thereafter Cyrus called himself king of Persia and ruled a territory extending from the Halys River in Asia Minor, eastern border of Lydia, to the Babylonian Empire on the south and east. Babylon, Egypt, Lydia, and the city-state of Sparta in Greece combined to curb the power of Cyrus, but in 546 BC the Persians added Lydia to their realm, and in 539 BC the kingdom of Babylon fell to Cyrus. The Persian Empire was the most powerful state in the world until its conquest two centuries later by Alexander the Great. Cyrus was an able and merciful ruler. Significant among his deeds was his granting of permission to the Jews to return from their exile in Babylon to their native Israel to rebuild the Temple of Solomon. Cyrus died while leading an expedition against the eastern tribe, the Massagetae, and was succeeded by his son, who became Cambyses II.

As you can see it lines up very well.

Thanks I'm studying it and will get back to you.

BABerean2 · Nov 27, 2015

Short Timer said:
If Jesus/church are a mystery and the rapture coming is a mystery, but the second coming has been known since the beginning of time,

why do you keep insisting that the rapture coming is the same coming that has been know since the beginning of time???

The passage below is clearly a Second Coming passage. However, it also uses the word "mystery".

This makes your argument above useless.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
Short Timer said:

If Jesus/church are a mystery and the rapture coming is a mystery, but the second coming has been known since the beginning of time,

The first part of your statement is true Eph 5:32 your statement “the rapture coming is a mystery” is nowhere in scripture, but apparently that doesn’t matter to you. You just keep saying it and never show a scripture to back it up.

Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for "US", (church) and would come to receive "US" (church) himself,
that where he is, placed prepare, there "WE" (church) would be also.

why do you keep insisting that the rapture coming is the same coming that has been know since the beginning of time???

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead. There is no mystery coming of which you speak in scripture. We are all still waitng for you to show it in the BIBLE. If the revelation you have is not in scripture it is worthless and not a revelation at all. Chapter and verse please.

The fact is that no one is resurrected from a grave in the second coming doesn't matter, all OT/Church and martyred saints of the trib return with Jesus, and unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a grave.

or that in the rapture, only the righteous living and dead are resurrected and leave the earth while in the second coming angels "FIRST" remove the Tares from the earth and angels gather the righteous remaining to stay here on the earth for the MK, only the tares leaving the earth.

In the rapture righteous leave the earth going to heaven, tares remain behind,
at the second coming, tares leave the earth going to hell, righteous remain behind.

This mystery rapture has to be part of this other mystery of Jesus/church, and not part of the second coming known since the beginning of time or it wouldn't be a mystery.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Why do you explain what this "Fulness of the Gentiles" means and why this "Stumbling stone" must be "taken out of the way" before the blinders can come off of Israel.

You keep denying that the church gets to go to the place Jesus went to prepare for us, and deny that "many" will have the covenant confirmed with them during the week of the trib.

Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.

New Jerusalem doesn't come to this earth, but to the new earth, which is over a thousand years after the second coming.

You certainly don't understand this "Mystery" of Jesus/Church/Rapture.

If you understand it, point it out in the scripture, just that simple. Stop with the you are more spiritual and understand all mysteries talk. You wrote this whole post and did not answer one point from my post you quoted. Go back quote it again and start over. Stop hiding behind this jargon you use all the time and if you are going to debate this subject do it with scripture, no one here cares about anything else.

Watch the video BaB posted and if you think its wrong show us from scripture.

I can't show you anything if you don't know the scripture well enough to recognize the differences between the two remaining coming of Jesus,

Or, if you're so "dead set" on being right that it doesn't matter what the scripture say, in that case even the spirit will keep you blinded.

Here's the bottom line, "if you have the ears to hear, Jesus will teach you the truth, if you don't, he won't".

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

BABerean2 said:
The passage below is clearly a Second Coming passage. However, it also uses the word "mystery".

This makes your argument above useless.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

God been known since the beginning, but Jesus/church/rapture was a mystery not revealed until he came.

Angels didn't die for the sins of the world, so only the one who "Redeemed" people from their sins can call/redeem them from the grave,

The "last trump" of Jesus voice is the rapture, Jesus coming himself, not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

Bible2+ · Nov 28, 2015

Short Timer said in post 4173:

And part of that "Mystery" is the "pre trib Rapture" involving nobody but the "Saints" that belong to that "Mystery".

Note that the "mystery" in verses like Colossians 1:26 and Romans 16:25-26 is "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

For example, Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' first coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

Also, Paul quotes 4 Old Testament verses in Romans 15:9-12 that foretold the salvation of the Gentiles (2 Samuel 22:50/Psalms 18:49, Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalms 117:1, Isaiah 11:10).

God chose Peter the apostle to be the first one to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7, Acts 10:34-48), to make Gentile believers partakers of the Jews' spiritual things (Romans 15:27, John 4:22b), just as Paul sometimes preached the gospel to Jews (e.g. Acts 13:16-41).

This mystery (Ephesians 3:4) is also explained in Ephesians 3:6, which means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.

Short Timer said in post 4173:

They don't know what fulness of the Gentiles means or who this "HE" represents that is 'taken out of the way" before the wicked is revealed, or who those are that have the covenant confirmed with them during the week of the trib,

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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Short Timer said in post 4179:

You keep denying that the church gets to go to the place Jesus went to prepare for us, and deny that "many" will have the covenant confirmed with them during the week of the trib.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

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Short Timer said in post 4183:

The fact is that no one is resurrected from a grave in the second coming doesn't matter, all OT/Church and martyred saints of the trib return with Jesus, and unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a grave.

Actually, the church is.

For before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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Short Timer said in post 4184:

The "last trump" of Jesus voice is the rapture, Jesus coming himself, not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

The trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, note that nothing requires that the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be blown by God himself instead of by an angel under God's command, just as nothing requires that the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 will be blown by an angel instead of by God himself. That is, the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 can be the same trumpet as in Matthew 24:31. For both 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 refer to the trumpet which will sound at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).

Short Timer said in post 4184:

The "last trump" of Jesus voice is the rapture, Jesus coming himself, not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

Regarding "Jesus coming himself", note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 doesn't say "by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31. Jesus will send forth his angels at that time in order to gather together (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) all the "caught up" believers (1 Thessalonians 4:17) in myriad different places in the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31) to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus will be, before he lands on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).

Similarly, note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

BABerean2 · Nov 28, 2015

Short Timer said:
The fact is that no one is resurrected from a grave in the second coming doesn't matter, all OT/Church and martyred saints of the trib return with Jesus, and unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a grave.

The judgment of the dead occurs at the Second Coming, sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

These are the words of the Son of God, who will be doing the judging.
He will resurrect all that are in the graves and then judge them.
This occurs at the 7th trumpet.

How much clearer could it be?

.

iamlamad · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
Short Timer said:

If Jesus/church are a mystery and the rapture coming is a mystery, but the second coming has been known since the beginning of time,

The first part of your statement is true Eph 5:32 your statement “the rapture coming is a mystery” is nowhere in scripture, but apparently that doesn’t matter to you. You just keep saying it and never show a scripture to back it up.

why do you keep insisting that the rapture coming is the same coming that has been know since the beginning of time???

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead. There is no mystery coming of which you speak in scripture. We are all still waitng for you to show it in the BIBLE. If the revelation you have is not in scripture it is worthless and not a revelation at all. Chapter and verse please.

This mystery rapture has to be part of this other mystery of Jesus/church, and not part of the second coming known since the beginning of time or it wouldn't be a mystery.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

You keep denying that the church gets to go to the place Jesus went to prepare for us, and deny that "many" will have the covenant confirmed with them during the week of the trib.

Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.

Evidently, according to scripture the "Mysteries of God" haven't been revealed to you.

Is this the only type of response you have? Paul talks of several mysteries in his writings, but a mystery rapture is not among them.

Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

You certainly don't understand this "Mystery" of Jesus/Church/Rapture.

If you understand it, point it out in the scripture, just that simple. Stop with the you are more spiritual and understand all mysteries talk. You wrote this whole post and did not answer one point from my post you quoted. Go back quote it again and start over. Stop hiding behind this jargon you use all the time and if you are going to debate this subject do it with scripture, no one here cares about anything else.

Watch the video BaB posted and if you think its wrong show us from scripture.

Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.
Postview, you amaze me! You KNOW in your thinker that the day the New Jerusalem comes down will be after this heaven and earth are destroyed and God has made a NEW Heaven and earth. You write it as if it will take place at His coming for the battle of Armageddon! IN CONTEXT John 14 is talking about Jesus going to heaven, NOT HEAVEN COMING TO EARTH!

"3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He is talking about HIM going to heaven, so IN CONTEXT "where I am" would be HEAVEN.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
WHEN? WHEN "shall all be changed?" You know the answer: AT THE RAPTURE. PAUL WAS THE FIRST WRITER TO WRITE OF THE RAPTURE!

I know this really irks you, but neither you nor anyone else can prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as the Rev. 19 coming. You would LIKE to have it written in stone, but it is not. Humans have been arguing of this for years, which is proof enough that it cannot be proven - especially by ONE VERSE.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

PROVE THIS BY ONE VERSE! Just show us a verse! You KNOW you cannot, yet you post is a absolute truth!

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

I could write something similar but far more true:
THERE IS NO gathering in Rev. 19! (except for God's "guests.")

Posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper!
The ONLY way you can answer this is by rearranging scripture to fit your theory. You know this as well as I know it.

BABerean2 · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
I know this really irks you, but neither you nor anyone else can prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as the Rev. 19 coming. You would LIKE to have it written in stone, but it is not. Humans have been arguing of this for years, which is proof enough that it cannot be proven - especially by ONE VERSE.

Paul gave one verse which shows the timing.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The Greek word "parousia" or "coming" connects all of the passages that show a 7th trumpet gathering of the church, including Matthew chapter 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Your side has not been able to show a 7 year stay in heaven within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, because it does not exist.

The timing of the judgment of the dead is given at Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There was not a lot of arguing about the issue, before John Darby brought the Irvingite "Secret Rapture" to America...
.

keras · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
"3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He is talking about HIM going to heaven, so IN CONTEXT "where I am" would be HEAVEN.

Wrong Lamad. It is talking about Him coming again, to receive His people to where He is, that is: in Jerusalem, on earth.

The places He is, has, prepared are initially in the Holy Land, Isaiah 54:2-3, Jeremiah 30:18, Ezekiel 36:33, then after the Millennium, in the new Jerusalem. Revelation 21:2

Postvieww · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.
Postview, you amaze me! You KNOW in your thinker that the day the New Jerusalem comes down will be after this heaven and earth are destroyed and God has made a NEW Heaven and earth. You write it as if it will take place at His coming for the battle of Armageddon! IN CONTEXT John 14 is talking about Jesus going to heaven, NOT HEAVEN COMING TO EARTH!

"3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He is talking about HIM going to heaven, so IN CONTEXT "where I am" would be HEAVEN.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
WHEN? WHEN "shall all be changed?" You know the answer: AT THE RAPTURE. PAUL WAS THE FIRST WRITER TO WRITE OF THE RAPTURE!

I know this really irks you, but neither you nor anyone else can prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as the Rev. 19 coming. You would LIKE to have it written in stone, but it is not. Humans have been arguing of this for years, which is proof enough that it cannot be proven - especially by ONE VERSE.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

PROVE THIS BY ONE VERSE! Just show us a verse! You KNOW you cannot, yet you post is a absolute truth!

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

I could write something similar but far more true:
THERE IS NO gathering in Rev. 19! (except for God's "guests.")

Posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper!
The ONLY way you can answer this is by rearranging scripture to fit your theory. You know this as well as I know it.

Postvieww bold type:

Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.

Postview, you amaze me! You KNOW in your thinker that the day the New Jerusalem comes down will be after this heaven and earth are destroyed and God has made a NEW Heaven and earth. You write it as if it will take place at His coming for the battle of Armageddon! IN CONTEXT John 14 is talking about Jesus going to heaven, NOT HEAVEN COMING TO EARTH!

"3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He is talking about HIM going to heaven, so IN CONTEXT "where I am" would be HEAVEN.

I know very well where the New Jerusalem fits into scripture. I gave the references. I did not say it was at the battle of Armageddon, you assumed that. Yes scripture says it is after the new heaven and earth have been created. My statement didn’t add to scripture or make assumptions. It is your doctrine that says we go back to heaven to wait out the tribulation. Don’t make assumptions on what I am saying or believe based on what you believe.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven, and He did that 2000 years ago. He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself. When He comes He will be here not there, it is you who assumes we all will return. You also assume when He receives us we are immeadiately to go live in those mansions. When He comes there is a battle to fight and a 1000 reign to fulfill. The only verse in scripture that says when we will enter into that place He prepared is in Rev 21:27. Yes I know when that is. It is you who adds to John 14:3 what it does not say.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

WHEN? WHEN "shall all be changed?" You know the answer: AT THE RAPTURE. PAUL WAS THE FIRST WRITER TO WRITE OF THE RAPTURE!

Just as you believe because no catching up is mentioned at the second coming in Rev 19, there is not one, in your theory , and since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!! There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.

I know this really irks you, but neither you nor anyone else can prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as the Rev. 19 coming. You would LIKE to have it written in stone, but it is not. Humans have been arguing of this for years, which is proof enough that it cannot be proven - especially by ONE VERSE.

Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other. You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.

No it doesn’t irk me, it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection. That is the topic of the entire chapter. There is no trip to heaven written, implied or alluded too. It simply is not there. Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

PROVE THIS BY ONE VERSE! Just show us a verse! You KNOW you cannot, yet you post is a absolute truth!

You post as absolute truth many things you cannot prove. Let’s try it again. Jesus only spoke of one, and He should know. John 6:39, 40, 44, 54. There is 3 verses without even mentioning Daniel or Paul. You show me one verse that says multiple resurrections.

Don’t give me that it was only revealed to Paul line, show me one verse that says that!

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

I could write something similar but far more true:

Not and back it up with scripture.

THERE IS NO gathering in Rev. 19! (except for God's "guests.")

Already got this one!

Posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper!

I’m not even going quote what the scripture says about the marriage supper, you know your bible well enough. Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do. See what I mean about assumptions.

The ONLY way you can answer this is by rearranging scripture to fit your theory. You know this as well as I know it.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you?

Lamad, you amaze me as well.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

BABerean2 said:
The judgment of the dead occurs at the Second Coming, sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These are the words of the Son of God, who will be doing the judging.
He will resurrect all that are in the graves and then judge them.
This occurs at the 7th trumpet.

How much clearer could it be?

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There is no Judgment of the unsaved until the GWT.

People who don't have "ears to hear him today" won't hear him in the Rapture, unsaved people won't hear him until they're called from the grave at the GWT.

Only the Righteous are judged at the second coming, for "Rewards".

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:.......and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You fellows are not familiar enough with scripture to know where you contradict other parts of scripture.

Postvieww · Nov 28, 2015

tanzel said:
Lets start with the first and second head...we will start this study in Daniel chapter 2. Each nation or people had a chance to rule, but only one people ran the entire world, and that was the sons of Japheth. The Bible speaks of other great nations such as Egypt and her Pharaohs, and also Israel and her Kings but, these people never rule the entire world. The sons of Japheth are called Gentiles. This has nothing to do with religion or beliefs. Gentiles are simply sons of Japheth. We will start at the beginning of the Gentile dynasty with the King of Babylon, which was Nebuchadnezzar. We will end this study at the Roman Empire. Today you will find out all that was written in your history book was already written by the Prophets. You will see that man could in no way have tampered with the Holy Scriptures on the scale that some believe. Let’s get started, watch how history lines up with the Holy Scripture.

Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and the dream troubled him. The problem was he could not remember or understand the dream. The King called all of his wise men and told them if they did not tell him the dream he would cut them in pieces

Daniel 2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him. 2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to show the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. 3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream. 4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.

5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.

The Kings wise men could not tell him the dream. The King then put out a decree to kill all the wise men, the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to be put to death. The Kings guard also sought Daniel Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, these four were among the captives of Israel. Daniel asked Arioch the captain of the king's guard, why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel. Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would show the king the interpretation. Daniel prayed to the God of Heaven and he answered Daniel in a vision by night. Daniel was brought to the King and gave him the interpretation of the dream.

Daniel 2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation. 26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? 27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king; 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. 30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

There is no need for a person to try to interpret the Word of God, all you have to do is continue to read and your entire question will be answered. What did the image represent?

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Notice what is says, wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Where ever men or fowl or beast of the field were Nebuchadnezzar had rule over them. He was also the head of gold on the image. Look at the next verse. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Notice what it says, after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, in verse 39 after the head of gold the image breast and arms were made of silver, this would represent the second kingdom.The third part of the image the belly and thighs of brass, represented the third kingdom that will rule the entire earth. Look at the next verse.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Remember in verse 33 when it said the feet of the image was mix with iron and clay. Here in the 40th verse the iron represent the fourth kingdom to rule the earth. If you continue to read your question will be answered. The next verses are future. Pay close attention to 44th and 45th verses.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Look at verse 44, it says in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. This verse lets you know these kings or kingdom will rule until the Lord comes. Look at verse 45, who is this stone cut out without hands? Look at this verse in Psalms 18.

Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

The Lord is that Stone that will destroy these kingdoms at his second coming.

The next set of scriptures will show how the second kingdom came into power.

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

What are the 4 beast and what do they represent? Let’s go to Daniel chapter 5 and find a couple of these beast and find out what they mean. The Bible can speak of it’s self, there is no reason for anyone to try and guests what’s on the Lord’s mind, all you have to do is read it and take it for what it says.

In Daniel chapter 5 Belshazzar made a serious mistake, that very night he lost his life. When he lost his life another kingdom came into power. Here you will begin to see how recorded history lines up with the word of God. Take a look at who took over form Belshazzar after his death.

Daniel 5:1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. 2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. 5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaster of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. 6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. 7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and show me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.

Once again Daniel was called to give an interpretation of a vision. Look what Daniel told the king.

Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

The king asked and Daniel gave it to him. Take a look.

Daniel 5:25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. 29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

As you see the kingdom was given to the Medes/Persian Empire after Belshazzar was killed. Before we move into recorded history we will list all the parts to the image and what they represent.

This image represent the entire Gentile ruler ship as seen by Nebuchadnezzar in the 2nd chapter of Daniel. Head of gold: Represents the Babylonian Empire. Breasts and arms of silver: Represents the Medo-Persian Empire Belly and thighs of brass: Represents the Greek Empire. Legs of iron: Represents the Roman Empire Feet part iron and party clay with the toes: Represent the ten nations combined to make up the European Common market

Keep these in mind as we go through the study.

This is a from Funk and Wagnall’s Encyclopedia under BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY.

BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY or BABYLONIAN EXILE, term applied to the period between the deportation of the Jews from Palestine to Babylon by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II and their release in 538 BC by the Persian king Cyrus. Two main deportations are recorded: one in 597 BC, when Israelite nobles, warriors, and artisans were transported; and one in 586 BC when Nebuchadnezzar's army destroyed Jerusalem, and the major part of the remaining Israelite community was taken to Babylon. At the time of the second deportation an important group of Israelites fled to Egypt; thereafter, only the poorest peasants were allowed to remain in Palestine, and the political dissolution of independent Israel was an accomplished fact. The majority of the Jews living in Babylon did not return to Palestine at the end of the exile period, but became a part of the Diaspora, or body of Jews dispersed among nations outside Palestine.

Darius the Median wasn’t mentioned is. Why? The Medes were not as powerful as the Persian Empire. That’s why history jumps to Cyrus the Great. Some of the Persian Kings took on the tile of Darius this let you know that the Medes were there first.

Now we will return to the scripture going to the Book of Ezra showing Cyrus reign, and what was his dealing with children of Israel.

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem. 5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

Take a look at verse 2, Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Notice what it says, “The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth”. This let you know Cyrus ran the entire earth. Not only that, the Lord gave him an order to rebuild His temple at Jerusalem, using only the children of Israel. If you read further in Ezra you would find out that the people of the land tried to help. The Lord used only His People (Israel) to build the temple. Take a look at this in Ezra chapter 2.

Ezra 2:1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; 64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

Let’s return to world history and see if it lines up with the scripture. This is from Funk and Wagnall’s encyclopedia. Remember Cyrus has inherited the kingdom from the Babylonians.

CYRUS THE GREAT (c. 600-529 BC), king of Persia (550-529 BC). He was the son of Cambyses I, a descendant of Achaemenes (Hakhamanish) (fl. 681 BC), and a member of the Achaemenid dynasty. When Cyrus became ruler (558 BC) of the Persian district of Anshan, the district was subject to the Medes; in 593 BC he led a rebellion against the Medes that resulted in the capture of King Astyages (r. about 584-c. 550 BC) and the overthrow (550 BC) of the Median Empire. Thereafter Cyrus called himself king of Persia and ruled a territory extending from the Halys River in Asia Minor, eastern border of Lydia, to the Babylonian Empire on the south and east. Babylon, Egypt, Lydia, and the city-state of Sparta in Greece combined to curb the power of Cyrus, but in 546 BC the Persians added Lydia to their realm, and in 539 BC the kingdom of Babylon fell to Cyrus. The Persian Empire was the most powerful state in the world until its conquest two centuries later by Alexander the Great. Cyrus was an able and merciful ruler. Significant among his deeds was his granting of permission to the Jews to return from their exile in Babylon to their native Israel to rebuild the Temple of Solomon. Cyrus died while leading an expedition against the eastern tribe, the Massagetae, and was succeeded by his son, who became Cambyses II.

As you can see it lines up very well.

1. Head of gold: Represents the Babylonian Empire

2. Breasts and arms of silver: Represents the Medo-Persian Empire

3. Belly and thighs of brass: Represents the Greek Empire

4. Legs of iron: Represents the Roman Empire

5. Feet part iron and party clay with the toes: Represent the ten nations combined to make up the European Common market

Above are the five empires cut and pasted from your post. I’m with you on the first four. My question is how did you arrive at #5 being ten nations of the European Common Market? The common market has not been 10 since 1986 when Spain and Portugal joined and made 12. I was saved in 1980 there were 9 at that time, then in 1981 Greece joined and made 10. Prophecy teachers said this is it, there are now ten. Now there are 28. How do we make that work? Thanks for the time you've put into this.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

I’m not even going quote what the scripture says about the marriage supper, you know your bible well enough. Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do. See what I mean about assumptions.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you?

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.(Gospel taken to the Gentiles)

Mt 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Mt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

You, or any other want to explain
1. who this is that refuse the invitation to the wedding
2. and who it is that does attend,
3. and where this wedding takes place,
4. and at what time period in scripture
5. who is the man without a wedding garment
6. how he got up there where the "KING" lives???????

Don't beat around the bush, give direct answers.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
Above are the five empires cut and pasted from your post. I’m with you on the first four. My question is how did you arrive at #5 being ten nations of the European Common Market? The common market has not been 10 since 1986 when Spain and Portugal joined and made 12. I was saved in 1980 there were 9 at that time, then in 1981 Greece joined and made 10. Prophecy teachers said this is it, there are now ten. Now there are 28. How do we make that work? Thanks for the time you've put into this.

The Seven Kingdoms.
http://i50.tinypic.com/m7pc7.jpg

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

This seventh kingdom (ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT) divides the world into 10 regions, each governed by a "board of directors" appointed by the "Central government", which the United Nations has already done, including a 13 month calendar so there is no "leap years", and it doesn't have any "Religious Holidays" either.

Man sets up this OWG, but the AC seizes control of it and uses it on them, demanding they take his mark or die,

Men dig a pit for people but end up falling it themselves.

Pr 26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:

iamlamad · Nov 28, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Paul gave one verse which shows the timing.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The Greek word "parousia" or "coming" connects all of the passages that show a 7th trumpet gathering of the church, including Matthew chapter 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Your side has not been able to show a 7 year stay in heaven within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, because it does not exist.

The timing of the judgment of the dead is given at Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There was not a lot of arguing about the issue, before John Darby brought the Irvingite "Secret Rapture" to America...
.

You really need an English lesson.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We have here ORDER as in something first, something next, and we have an event that NO ONE can prove the timing of.

Neither can you prove that the "judgment of the dead" really comes at the 7th trumpet. That is imagination on your part. It is written there, but ONLY as prophecy of future events.

iamlamad · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
1. Head of gold: Represents the Babylonian Empire

2. Breasts and arms of silver: Represents the Medo-Persian Empire

3. Belly and thighs of brass: Represents the Greek Empire

4. Legs of iron: Represents the Roman Empire

5. Feet part iron and party clay with the toes: Represent the ten nations combined to make up the European Common market

Above are the five empires cut and pasted from your post. I’m with you on the first four. My question is how did you arrive at #5 being ten nations of the European Common Market? The common market has not been 10 since 1986 when Spain and Portugal joined and made 12. I was saved in 1980 there were 9 at that time, then in 1981 Greece joined and made 10. Prophecy teachers said this is it, there are now ten. Now there are 28. How do we make that work? Thanks for the time you've put into this.

I'm with you on this one. I don't think it is the European Common Market. I wonder if there are 10 'Stan countries?

BABerean2 · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
Neither can you prove that the "judgment of the dead" really comes at the 7th trumpet. That is imagination on your part. It is written there, but ONLY as prophecy of future events.[/QUOTE]

I do not have to prove anything. It is plainly written in God's Word.

You make the choice to ignore it or explain it away, because it destroys John Darby's doctrine.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That is the thing about unscriptural doctrine. It soon shows itself, for what it really is...

.

See the quote above...

iamlamad · Nov 28, 2015

Postvieww said:
Postvieww bold type:

Jesus brings the place He has prepared to us Rev 21: 1-3 Rev 21:10.

Postview, you amaze me! You KNOW in your thinker that the day the New Jerusalem comes down will be after this heaven and earth are destroyed and God has made a NEW Heaven and earth. You write it as if it will take place at His coming for the battle of Armageddon! IN CONTEXT John 14 is talking about Jesus going to heaven, NOT HEAVEN COMING TO EARTH!

"3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He is talking about HIM going to heaven, so IN CONTEXT "where I am" would be HEAVEN.

I know very well where the New Jerusalem fits into scripture. I gave the references. I did not say it was at the battle of Armageddon, you assumed that. Yes scripture says it is after the new heaven and earth have been created. My statement didn’t add to scripture or make assumptions. It is your doctrine that says we go back to heaven to wait out the tribulation. Don’t make assumptions on what I am saying or believe based on what you believe.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven, and He did that 2000 years ago. He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself. When He comes He will be here not there, it is you who assumes we all will return. You also assume when He receives us we are immeadiately to go live in those mansions. When He comes there is a battle to fight and a 1000 reign to fulfill. The only verse in scripture that says when we will enter into that place He prepared is in Rev 21:27. Yes I know when that is. It is you who adds to John 14:3 what it does not say.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

WHEN? WHEN "shall all be changed?" You know the answer: AT THE RAPTURE. PAUL WAS THE FIRST WRITER TO WRITE OF THE RAPTURE!

Just as you believe because no catching up is mentioned at the second coming in Rev 19, there is not one, in your theory , and since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!! There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.

I know this really irks you, but neither you nor anyone else can prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as the Rev. 19 coming. You would LIKE to have it written in stone, but it is not. Humans have been arguing of this for years, which is proof enough that it cannot be proven - especially by ONE VERSE.

Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other. You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.

No it doesn’t irk me, it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection. That is the topic of the entire chapter. There is no trip to heaven written, implied or alluded too. It simply is not there. Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

PROVE THIS BY ONE VERSE! Just show us a verse! You KNOW you cannot, yet you post is a absolute truth!

You post as absolute truth many things you cannot prove. Let’s try it again. Jesus only spoke of one, and He should know. John 6:39, 40, 44, 54. There is 3 verses without even mentioning Daniel or Paul. You show me one verse that says multiple resurrections.

Don’t give me that it was only revealed to Paul line, show me one verse that says that!

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

I could write something similar but far more true:

Not and back it up with scripture.

THERE IS NO gathering in Rev. 19! (except for God's "guests.")

Already got this one!

Posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper!

I’m not even going quote what the scripture says about the marriage supper, you know your bible well enough. Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do. See what I mean about assumptions.

The ONLY way you can answer this is by rearranging scripture to fit your theory. You know this as well as I know it.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you?

Lamad, you amaze me as well.

I did not make assumptions. I knew you knew when the Holy City would come down. What amazes me is that you can imagine John 14 being about that time way past the 1000 year reign and after the white throne judgment. Of course I understand it MUST BE SO to hold onto your posttrib belief! Jesus was just telling them about Him ascending back to heaven.

I think you MISSED the context:

John 13
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Verses in question

Rev. 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So when Jesus said, "where I am" and "there ye may be also" IN CONTEXT would be heaven. He WENT, He did not come.
I think it is a HUGE stretch to make this about the heavenly city coming down.

In the pretrib scenario, we have a home prepared. We will be there for the 7 years. When the millennial reign comes, we will have a place to go when we are not busy judging. Perhaps we could call it a "vacation home." In your scenario, we would have no real home of our own until after the 1000 year reign. I think my theory fits scripture.

I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord." I am conforted and can comfort others knowing we will be caught up before the Day of the Lord. I am not sure what comfort it would be to know you would be staying here and being overcome by the Beast. Somehow that is just not a comfort.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven

Thank you! Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going. So the verses we are discussing are enclosed by verses about Him going. No preconceptions here! It is in black and white.

1: going to heaven
2. Going to make houses for you
3. I will come and take you to myself.

How can you make this about the houses prepared coming down? If the FIRST readers of John read this, NOT KNOWING about Revelation at all, what would THEY think about these verses? I submit they were NEVER come up with the idea that heaven would come down to them! The theme of this passage is his going. Sorry, but you are the one stretching this one!

He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself.

But the readers of John THEN, when John wrote, did not know that! All they knew (in context) was they He was going, they could not follow, and He would prepare houses for them in "My Father's house." They did not know about Armageddon. They did not know about His coming on a white horse. All they knew at that time was that He was going, and they were not going with Him. I believe they DID know there would be a time that Jesus would set up an earthly kingdom. I doubt seriously if any suspected heaven would come to them. When Jesus mentioned "His Father's house, their minds went to HEAVEN. Then when He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," their mind was still on heaven. I am convinced of it.

it is you who assumes we all will return.
It is not an assumption: it is written that "He comes with 10,000's of His saints." It is you who assume He comes with 10,000's of His saints who have died and He is only bringing their spirits.

You also assume when He receives us we are immeadiately to go live in those mansions.
It is obvious to me in the context written. I am convinced it is what the first readers of John's book thought.

since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!!
Touché! It works both ways.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.
If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6. Again this is a point that simply cannot be proven. People have been arguing this point for years. All we can prove is that there WILL BE a resurrection of the righteous.

Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other.
Sorry, but 2 Thes. 2 only says what you wish it to say when apostasia is translated as KJV did it. It does not say what you think it says when we translate that one word another way. This is not inserting, it is exegeting. We just disagree on what the intent of the Author is here.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departing occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I wonder, if you had read it this way years ago, before you had ANY opinions, how you would have believed it? Or, I could say it this way, if the KJV had translated it this way, how many would have guessed on a falling away from truth - especially when the theme is the gathering? Here is a "Hebrew roots" translation I have never seen before:

2Thessalonians 2:1-10:
Concerning the coming of Adonu Yahshua HaMashiach and our being
gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily
unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to
have come from us, saying that the Day of YHWH has already come.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the [great departure] occurs proton [first in the sequence of
events] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to
destruction.
(Note, this is copied from a web site, not from a bible. Someone else could have added for emphasis.)

if Paul had stated the theme like this:

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the great falling away.... OR:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the great falling away that will come first......

Then most would immediately think if they saw "there will come a departing first..." as a falling away from truth or sound doctrine.

However, Paul wrote it this way:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...
...except there come the departing first...

I think these two fit together far better than the theme being the gathering and then go one with the passage and never get to the gathering.

We have beat this horse to death, and you still don't see it! ;-)

You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.
I certainly make an issue out of rearranging Rev 19 to make it fit! WHAT am I ignoring in 1 Cor. 15?

it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection. No it is not! "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." the MYSTERY is that some will not die but be CHANGED. And that, my friend happens at the rapture.

Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like. The truth is, we need to take all verses on a subject, not just one or two! I don't think even you would disagree that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 are sister passages. Therefore, we take them TOGETHER, not separately. 1 Cor. 15 does not show any kind of timing, 1 Thes. does.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.
You make this statement as if 100% of the church believed it and as if you could prove it! Sorry, neither is true.

Jesus only spoke of one The church was a MYSTERY at the time. There would not have been another coming unless Israel rejected Jesus and God turned to the Gentiles. But since they DID reject their own Messiah as a nation, God DID turn to the Gentiles, and the church age is pretty much of a parenthesis: rapture included.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!! Yet, when Paul wrote in 1 Cor. about some not dying but changing, he called it a mystery. There is NOTHING in the bible about living people being suddenly changed UNTIL PAUL WROTE IT.

Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do.
You already KNOW that John wrote of the marriage before he wrote of Jesus on the white horse. You wish for that to be reversed. John is giving us an extremely brief outline in Rev. 19. When he tells us it is time for the marriage, he did not mean later! He meant RIGHT THEN in that verse.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you? No you can't! You are dreaming! You have to rearrange Rev. 19. You have to assume 2 thes. 2 really means what you think it means. You have to assume the Matthew 24 gathering is the same a Paul's gathering. You have to assume the Day of the Lord begins when Jesus comes. Indeed, you make many assumptions.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
You really need an English lesson.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We have here ORDER as in something first, something next, and we have an event that NO ONE can prove the timing of.

Neither can you prove that the "judgment of the dead" really comes at the 7th trumpet. That is imagination on your part. It is written there, but ONLY as prophecy of future events.

What they don't know is that those killed during the trib and under the altar would be in heaven before the "Firstfruit" of Jesus, the church.

And their argument that no one goes to heaven also goes down the drain by those being under the altar.

Short Timer · Nov 28, 2015

iamlamad said:
I'm with you on this one. I don't think it is the European Common Market. I wonder if there are 10 'Stan countries?

The "Central Banks" (Federal Reserve/ours) are the ones who start this one world government, with the "Bank of International settlements" Basel, Switzerland being the "Apex Bank".

"History shows that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit and
violent means possible to maintain control over governments by controlling the money and the
issuance of it."

President James A. Madison

"The powers or financial capitalism had (a) far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world
system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country
and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist
fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in
frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for
International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the
world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought
to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign
exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the
country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the
business world."

Prof. Carroll Quigley in his book Tragedy and Hope

"The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is eager to enter into close relationship with the Bank
for International Settlements....The conclusion is impossible to escape that the State and
Treasury Departments are willing to pool the banking system of Europe and America, setting up
a world financial power independent of and above the Government of the United States....The
United States under present conditions will be transformed from the most active of
manufacturing nations into a consuming and importing nation with a balance of trade against it."

Rep. Louis McFadden - (Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency) quoted
in the New York Times (June 1930)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The
issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly
belongs."

President Thomas Jefferson

"The few who can understand the system (Federal Reserve) will be so interested in its profits, or
so dependent on its favors, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other
hand, the great body of the people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous
advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and
perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."

Rothschild Brothers of London

"All the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arise, not from defects in the
Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from (people's) downright
ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation."

President John Adams

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Matthew 4:4

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Lamad

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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