Why do Muslims call to Islam? And why others must listen to them?

let the bible speak · Dec 7, 2004

Montalban said:
Wrong!
Russia is.
European Russia is situated in the western part of the country, occupying an area of 4,294,400 square kilometres, or about a quarter of the total area of the Russian Federation.
http://www.quasar.ualberta.ca/edit202/modules/module1/samplewebs/drees/Euro.htm
(In total, including Asia, Russia is
Area:total: 17,075,200 sq km
land: 16,995,800 sq km
water: 79,400 sq km
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html)

compared to
Spain...
Area: total: 504,782 sq km
land: 499,542 sq km
water: 5,240 sq km
note: there are 19 autonomous communities including Balearic Islands and Canary Islands, and three small Spanish possessions off the coast of Morocco - Islas Chafarinas, Penon de Alhucemas, and Penon de Velez de la Gomera
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html

You could say "Spain is the largest nation wholly within Europe", but that's not what you said. Sorry. Although I don't know what the size of Spain has to do with anything, other than to give me an opportunity to show empirically you're source is wrong. Thanks, bud.

And?

Show me the 'test for charm' and we can compare if it was more charming than another nation.

And? Even accepting this 'call for help', if the Moslems intended 'peace' why'd they send a general and an army.
By the way, I don't think you'll find Roderick ruled all Spain, but rather Spain was divided into many petty kingdoms; left-overs from the Germanic invasions.

Obviously they were armed with rubber bullets.

You claimed in your previous post

(emphasis mine)
How did this happen?

There comes a time when one can not have a reasoned debate, because one person wants to claim anything and everything.
As an apologist for Islam, you made the claim that not a single drop of blood was shed, and in the same thread you claim that some bloke lead an army, arrived in Spain and defeated another army... without any deaths?
"the King was killed in the battle of Guadalete"
http://www.icbh.org/topics/islam_in_spain.htm
I suppose he could have been suffocated (not a drop of blood spilt!) The Muslim army snuck up behind the Gothic one and suffocated them all!

Show me the prophecy.

By the way, what's the fact that Spain is a constitutional monarchy got to do with your argument?

Also, successive Muslim waves attacked Spain over the centuries, and local Spanish Muslims often had to seek Christian protection; from great men such as El Cid.

In 722, at Covadonga, a small army under the Visigothic king Pelayo inflicted the first defeat on the Muslims. Symbolically, this battle marked the beginning of the Reconquista, the reconquest of Spain by the Christians.

If you read it carefully you will see that your own link answer s the presence of Islam in Europe:
ISLAM IN SPAIN

In the beginning of the 8th century, the Goths had been ruling Spain for 200 years. They were Christians, but were very corrupt and oppressive and the people of Spain were suffering tremendously. Corruption and high taxes created two classes of people: the poor working class and the rich ruling class.

Islam was the new religion of Arabia in the 7th century. It promoted justice, fairness and morality. Islam was spreading very fast from Arabia to Northern Africa. All the Muslim lands were separated from Spain by the Strait of Gibraltar.

In 710, Moortarik, with 7,000 troops, raided Andalusia and conquered Gebal-Tarik (Gibraltar). Tarik had a firce battle with King Roderick of Spain, who had 12,000 men with him. Nevertheless, the King was killed in the battle of Guadalete and Spain was defeated. Next was the Jewish town of Cordova, which fell without resistance.

Christians and Jews prospered in Spain during the centuries that Muslims were in control. The Muslim Army went north toward France and soon Bourdeaux in the South of France, became Muslim.
So the muslims came there to bring peace and justice to Jews and chrstians, these people prospered, were better of under Muslim reign than their own king,so what are you trying to prove that muslims were barbaric,If they brought prosperity to the nation they captured how could they be bad.
They came and and took down a ruler who was corrupt any and a tyrrant,the same means that The US is using today when they say they enterred Iraq to free the people, the differecnce is that in Iraq the people are now worst off then they were before.No prosperity, they even have to queue up for their own petrol.which is in shortage for them yet Millions of barrels are heading to the west.
CYA

The_true_path · Dec 7, 2004

Montalban said:
Well done, that's it exactly.

What he doesn't understand is the idea of someone doing something out of principle, rather than expediency. For Muhammed, when he was in Mecca and they threatened him, rather than stand up to them (even in peace), he fled!

Only when he had military power did he return, and not to just say "Hello", either

Mohammad (peace be upon him) was a prophet from humankind, he came mercy for all world

He did not fled anytime, how many war he has faced and triumphed and he spread the truth and still his religion grow up despite the unbelievers nose.

The_true_path · Dec 7, 2004

Montalban said:
The true God made a promise of salvation to the Jews. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the world.
.

Does that mean the Christians will do sins and Jesus will forgive it for them without punishment?!!!

Bevlina · Dec 7, 2004

Jesus forgave us on the Cross when He died for us. Now that we walk with Jesus, we aim for more spirituality so that we can be just like Him. Through the Holy Spirit. The Fruit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The_true_path · Dec 7, 2004

Bevlina said:
Jesus forgave us on the Cross when He died for us. Now that we walk with Jesus, we aim for more spirituality so that we can be just like Him. Through the Holy Spirit. The Fruit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

No wonder that the Christians commit sins !!!

Paladin Dave · Dec 7, 2004

The_true_path said:
This is my evidences, and give your evidence that prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was a false prophet.

6. And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you confirming the Taurât [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed . But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad ) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic." (Quran 61: 6)

157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad ) whom they find written with them in the Taurât (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16), - he commands them for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islâm has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibât [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khabâ'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allâh's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad ), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur'ân) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.(Quran 7:157)

So you consider your self follow the truth ????!!!!!

Just logically if Jesus was a God or son of God tell me why he hid not protect himself from crucify on the cross !!!!!!?????
and don't tell me he did that for us, because if he was a God he can do that without sacrifices himself ??!!!!!

Are you familiar with the concept of sacrificing a lamb to redeem your sins, an old testament practice? This is the same thing. To redeem a sinful man, you need a sinless man. Jesus was the only sinless man, and dont act like Muslims dont sin,(reference to your post directly above this one.) Here is my evidence:
Mark 13:22-23

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect if -- that were possible. So be on your guard. See I have told you everything ahead of time.

Matthew 7:15-20 Signs of the End of the Age

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Matthew 24:10-11

At that time many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Matthew 24:24-25

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

And here's some more:

Jesus Christ came into the world to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16 He came into the world to bring us to His Father.
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.' " John 14:6 He died in our place to pay the penalty for our sin.
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit." 1 Peter 3:18 He rose from the dead to show that His claims were true.
"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep." 1 Corinthians 15:3-6

Why dont you want us to say that he did it as a sacrifice? Do you not want us to believe that God loves us enough to do that? I dont see it as impossible rabble, I and all other Christians see it as the ultimate sacrifice and act of love, far more passionate and true than any other. You, me, and everyone else will always sin, and to think otherwise is nothing short of arrogance and biggotry. Jesus is the only hope for humanity because of this.

peaceful soul · Dec 7, 2004

The_true_path said:
Does that mean the Christians will do sins and Jesus will forgive it for them without punishment?!!!

Does that really sound logical to you? Do you think that God freed us from obedience? Evidently there must be more to the picture than you see.

Montalban · Dec 8, 2004

let the bible speak said:
If you read it carefully you will see that your own link answer s the presence of Islam in Europe

If you read my post you'll see that I said it is an Islamic apologist site. It is not 'my site', but yours and yours states that there was a battle, and therefore your statement about 'not a drop of blood is patently false

Erratum: I did suggest Spain is next biggest, and forgot Ukraine. Clearly you are wrong too about Spain being the biggest nation in Europe.

The rest of your post simply is an attempt to ignore the factual errors you have made in such haste to act as an apologist for Muslim aggression

Montalban · Dec 8, 2004

The_true_path said:
Mohammad ...was a prophet from humankind, he came mercy for all world

Who's example was relative to a particular time and place according to your co-religionist Ibn_leroy.

The_true_path said:
He did not fled anytime,

This is probably one of the single biggest factual errors I've seen made by this forums Muslim apologists.
Muslims calculate their calendar by his flight from Mecca. It's even got its own name; Hegira. (see Note below)

The_true_path said:
how many war he has faced and triumphed and he spread the truth and still his religion grow up despite the unbelievers nose.

Yes, this is true, he did lead armies into battle. So much for 'peace', and 'no compulsion'. This is what I stated before. In Mecca, when his position was weak, he preached peace. When he was threatened, he ran. When he needed allies, he made them, even with Jewish tribes. When he wanted more wives than the four promised to other believers, suddenly Al-lah reveals he's a special case, and allowed nine. (and even here he didn't stop; having numerous concubines). As he acquired power, he lead armies into battle. When he was strong enough, he turned on his former allies and had them slaughtered, even after they had surrendered. Then he lead his armies back into Mecca and put to death people who'd once questioned him, or made fun of him.
This is the 'example of behaviour for all time'.

Note...
July 16, 622 in History
Event:
Moslem Era begins-Mahomet begins flight from Mecca to Medina (Hejira)
http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/622/july_16_622_30442.html
By the year A.D. 622, the prophet Muhammad had learned that painful lesson. In that year, he was forced to flee his native city, Mecca, to escape persecution from those who rejected his message. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, and a number of his followers migrated to Medina, where they were guaranteed protection by local clans. This event, which traditionally marks the beginning of the Islamic era, is known in Arabic as the "hijrah," -- literally, "flight." That Arabic term passed into Medieval Latin (where it was modified to "hegira"), and from there it eventually made its way into English. By the 18th century, English speakers were using "hegira" for other journeys, too, especially arduous ones.
http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/hejira.cfm

The_true_path · Dec 8, 2004

Montalban said:
Who's example was relative to a particular time and place according to your co-religionist Ibn_leroy.

This is probably one of the single biggest factual errors I've seen made by this forums Muslim apologists.
Muslims calculate their calendar by his flight from Mecca. It's even got its own name; Hegira. (see Note below)

Yes, this is true, he did lead armies into battle. So much for 'peace', and 'no compulsion'. This is what I stated before. In Mecca, when his position was weak, he preached peace. When he was threatened, he ran. When he needed allies, he made them, even with Jewish tribes. When he wanted more wives than the four promised to other believers, suddenly Al-lah reveals he's a special case, and allowed nine. (and even here he didn't stop; having numerous concubines). As he acquired power, he lead armies into battle. When he was strong enough, he turned on his former allies and had them slaughtered, even after they had surrendered. Then he lead his armies back into Mecca and put to death people who'd once questioned him, or made fun of him.
This is the 'example of behaviour for all time'.

Note...
July 16, 622 in History
Event:
Moslem Era begins-Mahomet begins flight from Mecca to Medina (Hejira)
http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/622/july_16_622_30442.html
By the year A.D. 622, the prophet Muhammad had learned that painful lesson. In that year, he was forced to flee his native city, Mecca, to escape persecution from those who rejected his message. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, and a number of his followers migrated to Medina, where they were guaranteed protection by local clans. This event, which traditionally marks the beginning of the Islamic era, is known in Arabic as the "hijrah," -- literally, "flight." That Arabic term passed into Medieval Latin (where it was modified to "hegira"), and from there it eventually made its way into English. By the 18th century, English speakers were using "hegira" for other journeys, too, especially arduous ones.
http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/hejira.cfm

From your link if you check this link you will find the whole life of Muhammad (peace be upon him) .

http://www.muhammad.net/

Why do Muslims call to Islam? And why others must listen to them?

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