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why do jews reject jesus?

do jews reject jesus?

  • yes jews do reject jesus.

  • jews don't reject jesus.

  • don't know that jews reject jesus.


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LoAmmi

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What had they spoken? Let's start with all the books in the Tanach in the "Prophets" section. All of that. That stuff we had to listen to. Many failed, but there were always Jews who followed the Torah and the Prophets.

We make no distinction between prophets. This law-bearing stuff is your thing, not ours so obviously it's not making a distinction. All prophets are prophets.

Joshua is a prophet like Moses is a prophet. They are both prophets. That's what we see as "like me" meaning. It will be a person that HaShem speaks to so that they can speak to the people. Exactly like verse 16 says! The people didn't want to hear the voice of the Lord directly, so someone else hears it and reports to them.

I see no reason in the text for verse 15 and verse 18 to be referring to different people. It's what you are bringing with you when you read the text not what the text actually states.
 
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LoAmmi

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Hi,

So there is no verse which states that Joshua is a prophet, and there is no verse which states that [Deut 18:18] was fulfilled in any Israelite prophet.

So there is no verse which states this is a future prophet and not the person coming right after Moses since the CONTEXT is that Israel will continue to hear the voice of the Lord. The prophet that came after Moses was Joshua.

You do realize that verses didn't exist in the original, right? If you get a Torah scroll today, there will not be any chapters or verses at all in the text. They are an addition that came much, much later. So things are either correctly read in context of the surrounding passages, just as you must read my sentences in context with everything around them, or they are incorrectly pulled out of context and applied willy-nilly to whatever people want.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I haven't made it a habit of trying to argue and try and prove Jesus is the Messiah to LoAmmi--or any of the other Jewish posters here.

Chiefly because I don't see that as being a particularly fruitful exchange. I'm not going to be changing any minds here about whether or not Jesus is, indeed, the Christ.

I can't argue someone into being a Christian, that's not a super power I have, so that isn't something I'm going to attempt.

But since I am a Christian, I'm going to continue to believe Christian things and confess Christian confessions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoAmmi

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Chiefly because I don't see that as being a particularly fruitful exchange. I'm not going to be changing any minds here about whether or not Jesus is, indeed, the Christ.

Pretty much. I argue to show that what we believe isn't stupid or silly or without merit, as I have heard some Christians claim. I don't even have a desire to turn someone from their faith.
 
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ViaCrucis

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And the Jews have always believed in the physical return of the selfsame Elijah who they believe physically ascended into the heaven/sky, and feel they will cease to be Jews if they believe someone else came in his stead.

I'm not Jewish so I can't speak on behalf of Judaism.


As a Christian the answer is simply that if they aren't Jesus then they aren't Jesus.

Jesus' Parousia isn't a matter of earthly signs and heavenly portents. Jesus says His Parousia will be sudden and without warning, like a thief in the night; comparing it to the days of Noah when people were eating and drinking and suddenly the flood came. He says two will be in a field, suddenly one will be taken and the other left. When He comes at the end of history, in judgment, it will be sudden, without warning, loud, and obvious.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yes, that particular question was mostly rhetorical.

I simply posted to this thread because you brought up Baha'u'llah as not meeting your standards (and those of your Church) for the Return of Christ, and then you explained your beliefs in a physical return of Jesus of Nazareth.

I thought the point about John the Baptist / Elijah was worth a mention given how it constituted a large stumbling block for Jewish recognition of Jesus.

Does the Lutheran belief regarding the return of Christ include flying down out of the physical sky through physical clouds? What about physical fire shooting out of His eyes, and a physical sword coming out of His mouth? It seems unlikely that those are interpreted literally, but I honestly don't know the answer.

How do Christians determine which aspects of prophecy are to be interpreted literally, and which could be symbolically fulfilled?
 
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LoAmmi

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I thought the point about John the Baptist / Elijah was worth a mention given how it constituted a large stumbling block for Jewish recognition of Jesus.

To be honest, often Elijah's return isn't even mentioned in the whole affair. The fact that the messianic prophecies are, to this day, unfulfilled is the big issue. It's like squabbling over if Jesus was of David's line since it can't pass though the mother. Who cares? The prophecies are not complete so it's arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Lutheran belief is what has been taught down through the ages, i.e. in the Creeds.

Our Confessions also argue that the locality of Christ, ascended and seated at the right hand of God, is not a matter of restricted place; but instead God who is everywhere present, in heaven and earth, means that He who lives and reigns with God at His right hand is likewise Lord over and through all things. Thus not only is His divinity everywhere present, but the humanity too by virtue of the union with the divinity; for this reason Christ can be present "in heaven" as well as being present in/under the bread and wine of the Supper. The human-and-divine Jesus, with unconfused and inseparable natures, is everywhere present as He is ascended to the right hand, the power of God the Father, who is everywhere present.

His descent, that is His Parousia--His over-the-horizon appearing--is not a matter of descending from "some place up there", but rather from the right hand of God, above/beyond all heavenly places.

But it is still Jesus who appears, the flesh-and-blood offspring of Mary.

How do Christians determine which aspects of prophecy are to be interpreted literally, and which could be symbolically fulfilled?
Understanding that apocalyptic language is apocalyptic is certainly helpful. Chances are that a book talks about multi-headed beasts, dragons, and human-faced armored locusts that perhaps it's not meant to be literal. But when it says Jesus Himself will appear on the last day, well we think that means Jesus, Mary's own flesh-and-blood offspring.

In the case of the Elijah - John the Baptist connection, it's simply for us a matter of believing what Jesus Himself plainly say about the matter. In other words we believe John fulfills the apocalyptic/prophetic role of Elijah because Jesus says so.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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danny ski

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I think that's exactly right. That word or this verse matter not at all. It's the big picture that disqualifies him from his claim.
 
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danny ski

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Or one could say why were few uneducated Jews wrong about Jesus and everybody else got it right? Jesus failed as a Jewish messiah, but succeeded as a Christian god. Unfortunately he can't be both, hence the attempts to eradicate Judaism.
 
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TG123

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I see zero evidence for the resurrection. It is something you accept on faith that I do not. It would need proof
I think that we have historical evidence from Tacitus that Jesus was crucified. This is also attested to in early Christian writings, even the heretical ones. Even those who rejected that He was crucified claimed that His body was put up on the cross, while His spirit remained.

Why do you think people would go around saying that Jesus resurrected, if He didn't? They had a lot to lose, facing not only ostracism but also persecution for their stance.
 
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LoAmmi

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No idea how many went around at the start. Only a few deaths are recorded in the NT. For all I know, a small number remained with the cause after he died and came up with the resurrection to be able to say he would complete the task and tap into the dying resurrecting cults that were popular in the area for followers.
 
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TG123

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Wa alaikum salaam.
Peace be unto you also.
Well, given the fact that we descend from Adam and Eve, one could argue we are all brothers and sisters.

The first three verses of Deuteronomy 18 outline what the word "brothers" means.

Deuteronomy 18:1-3

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offerings[a] as their[b] inheritance. 2 They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them.

Clearly, inheritance among brothers meant inheritance with Israel.

Jesus didn't claim He was Elijah. He claimed John the Baptist is.


Matthew 17:1-13

17 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,[a] with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.



9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” 10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

If you can find me some things in Isaiah 53 that cannot apply to Jesus, please point them out.

I have pointed out that in Deuteronomy 18, it is made very clear that "brothers" are a reference to Israel. If Muhammad was an Israelite, he maybe would have fit into that prophecy. However, that isn't the case.

So, why do you give such explanations for other prophecies, but when it comes to Muhammad s.a., you reject the perfectly valid explanation outright? Is this not similar to what the Jews do when it comes to Jesus?

Peace.
Another reason why I could not accept Muhammad would be that the book he claimed came from God to Him directly via Gabriel has some errors in it that demonstrate that He is not its author. Of course, I believe that the rejection of Christ's crucifixion and divinity are the biggest errors in the Quran, but to state that Jesus is God is a matter of faith, and many Muslims I speak to reject Tacitus' account.

So there are some more obvious things in there that can be easily proven are not from Him. I brought this up at one point already, in a different thread. I will paste what I wrote earlier.


As for a historical mistake in the Quran, I would advise you to refer to the thread below, which is about the Quran's claim that the Thamud carved their homes out of rock in the mountains, and that their dwellings can be seen and make clear the Quran's account.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7813817/

You can actually see massive buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr and Petra. However, they were not made by the Thamud before Moses, but rather by the Nabataeans a few centuries before Christ and some time after Him.



If you want a scientific error, refer to the verses 55:19,20.

There are no two seas or bodies of water that meet and do not "transgress".


55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
 
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TG123

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Yeah, but don't forget that one of these people was Paul. Why would someone who was a respected Pharisee abandon everything he believed in, as well as all his friends and position of authority, and go around saying he met Jesus and that He was crucified? Only some deaths are recorded in the New Testament, but plenty of persecutions. Why would people subject themselves to so much suffering for something that they would have known wasn't true? It makes no sense.
 
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LoAmmi

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Why would a Pharisees jump ship to the Sadduces to start? Why should I trust Paul when his letters show a disregard for Torah that is in conflict with the Psalms description of Torah being more precious than silver?

At the time you are describing it is said that the road to Jerusalem was lined with crucified Jews. Why should our suffering be any less a sign when compared to yours?
 
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TG123

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Why would a Pharisees jump ship to the Sadduces to start? Why should I trust Paul when his letters show a disregard for Torah that is in conflict with the Psalms description of Torah being more precious than silver?
Perhaps because he met God face to face and was told that there is now more to being a follower than the Torah.

At the time you are describing it is said that the road to Jerusalem was lined with crucified Jews. Why should our suffering be any less a sign when compared to yours?
I'm not saying that Jews crucified by the Romans suffered any less. I am saying that unlike them, the early Christians would have known whether their beliefs were true or false. It wasn't a matter of someone telling them the belief that Jesus died and was resurrected. From their accounts, they saw Him. And they were willing to suffer for Him and some of them even die.
 
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LoAmmi

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Perhaps because he met God face to face and was told that there is now more to being a follower than the Torah.
The Torah seems to think it's all about keeping the Torah. The Prophets seem to think so too. Why the sudden change of heart by the divine? The Torah says it is for EVERY generation. Not those until Messiah comes. I don't think Paul met anybody fave to face. I think he jumped onto a new faith because he disliked his previous one.

Which early accounts? The Gospels were years later by unidentified authors and Paul wasn't there.
 
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TG123

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The Torah seems to think it's all about keeping the Torah. The Prophets seem to think so too.
They were right. Then God came in the form of Jesus, and said there is more to being a follower than keeping the Torah.
Why the sudden change of heart by the divine?
Why can God not change His instructions for us?
The Torah says it is for EVERY generation. Not those until Messiah comes.
Christians are to still keep those parts of the Torah which Jesus said to keep. You say that the Torah is for every generation. Do you follow all of its commandments?

I don't think Paul met anybody fave to face. I think he jumped onto a new faith because he disliked his previous one.
Why would he dislike his previous one? And what would be the point of going all he went through if he just made this all up?

Which early accounts? The Gospels were years later by unidentified authors and Paul wasn't there.

According to most Biblical scholars, the Gospels were written in the 1st century AD. Their authors could very well have been the disciples.

No one is arguing that Paul was a witness to the events recorded in the Gospels. However, Jesus met him on the road to Damascus.


Dating

Estimates for the dates when the canonical gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Scholars variously assess the majority (though not the consensus [34]) view as follows:


  • Matthew: c. 70–100,[35] c. 80–85.[36]

  • Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[35] c. 80–85.[36]

  • John: c. 90–100,[36] c. 90–110,[37] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
Traditional Christian scholarship has generally preferred to assign earlier dates. Some historians interpret the end of the book of Acts as indicative, or at least suggestive, of its date; as Acts mentions neither the death of Paul, generally accepted as the author of many of the Epistles and who, according to the ecclesiastical tradition transmitted by Eusebius, was put to death by the Romans shortly before AD 68,[38] nor any other event post AD 62, notably the Neronian persecution of AD 64–65 that had such impact on the early church.[39]
Acts is attributed to the author of the Gospel of Luke, which is believed to have been written before Acts, and therefore would shift the chronology of authorship back, putting Mark as early as the mid 50s. Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible:

  • Matthew: c. 50 to 70s

  • Mark: c. 50s to early 60s, or late 60s

  • Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70s to 80s

  • John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50s to 70
Such early dates are not limited to conservative scholars. In Redating the New Testament John A. T. Robinson, a prominent liberal theologian and bishop, makes a case for composition dates before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Few academic scholars, however, take Robinson's work seriously. For example, Raymond Brown of the Union Theological Seminary specifically rejects "Bishop John A.T. Robinson's maverick attempt."[40] J.V.M. Sturdy said regarding Robinson's work that he "one sidedly ignores difficulties for his views, steamrollers the evidence, again and again advances from an improbable possibility to a certainty."[41]

Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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