Why Do Good?

[Faith In God]

Which they believed was sanctioned by the Bible (well wouldn't you if you could pick out verses that said to kill witches? And to kill the non-believers?).

We are not to kill anyone. We are not the nation of Israel, and neither were the colonists or the Spanish.

If God exists outside of time, we don't have free will; how can you have free will when all your actions are known both past and future?

Threads for that all over this site. Well, I know I have free will because I chose to be here. What does God have to do with choice? Well, for one, He knows your decisions. It'd be foolish to say that He doesn't. And He acts in your life according to what He knows you will do.

According to??? I think the definition of good is when the good outweighs the bad, when you have "good karma" in other words.

That is not the definition of good in the bible or in the dictionary. By the way, that recursion is a little out of place.

Should I say, "Duh," to this? And why do people have to love each other in order to take pleasure in each other's bodies?

Say it with me: S T D. With no agreement to stick with each other and only take pleasure in each others' bodies, then there is opportunity (and likelyhood) that they will eventually leave and go for another.

Conscience is just society ingraining in a person "right and wrong".

Not really. Society can numb it, but even a baby oblivious to society knows he's in trouble when he doesn't do what his mother tells him.

I was trying to demonstrate that there aren't moral absolutes.

Then there are no morals. With no clear-cut line, we become our own judges over other people's actions.

Monogamy, for one, is unnatural; there are no "monogamous" animals, scientific studies have shown this.

Animals are not moral beings. To be married includes an agreement that the two will stay together for life. To break it is to go back on your word. A lie.

Maybe in Asia, people are more comfortable and rational about their sexuality; they know infidelity will occur, and they take it in stride. But Asia is a whole different culture.

It sure is.

I have looked at the Constitution, and it seems to me that the Consititution is in direct disagreement with the Bible on many many points. And "Nature's God" is not the Bible's God, most of the Founding Fathers knew this, which brings me to my next point. Most of the Founding Fathers were deists, not Christians; read some of their writings sometime, you'll find their opinion on Christianity is very clear. The pledge, as all people know, was modified during the fifties during the Red Scare. We had to show we were "different" from the Communists.

And we still are. Remember that discussion about changing the pledge? Look at the Supreme Court. You will see engraved in the building the great lawgivers of the past. And in the center of that attention is Moses holding the Ten Commandments. More than 90% of the people in the US proclaim to be Christian. How many Moslim radio, television, or other media influences do you know of in America? There are thousands of Christian media influences in the US.

 

[Chrono Traveler]

We are not to kill anyone. We are not the nation of Israel, and neither were the colonists or the Spanish.

Not to kill? What about all that lot of, stoning a woman for adultry? When I bring that up most Christians even say "Times Change" or..What Jesus said "Let he who is withouht sin, cast the first stone"(which of corse to imply she not need to be stoned).

But really, times have chaned, and I think if there is a god, even he must accept the evolution of his creation.

And we still are. Remember that discussion about changing the pledge? Look at the Supreme Court. You will see engraved in the building the great lawgivers of the past. And in the center of that attention is Moses holding the Ten Commandments. More than 90% of the people in the US proclaim to be Christian. How many Moslim radio, television, or other media influences do you know of in America? There are thousands of Christian media influences in the US.

Um, I thought it was 80% of all americans. And only about 20% of the WORLD are Christians.

 

[MJT]

We are not to kill anyone. We are not the nation of Israel, and neither were the colonists or the Spanish.

Is this to imply that the nation of Israel, the colonists, and the Spanish were "allowed" to kill?

Not to kill? What about all that lot of, stoning a woman adultry? When I bring that up most Christians even say "Times Change" or..What Jesus said "Let he who is withouht sin, cast the first stone"(which of corse to imply she not need to be stoned).

Yep, I hear the "times change" line a lot. It's pretty lame actually. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, but he broke it many times (he stole [in Luke 19 he orders his disciples to steal], he never turned the other cheek like he preached [Remember the temple? Remember the Pharisees?], Jesus was a self-exalting rabble rouser [which is what he was crucified for, rabble rousing, which is in direct contradiction to his other teachings]). So I can only wonder why no Christian follows OT law (oh, except the first set of the Ten Commandments seem to still be in effect according to some Christians, I wonder how they know which laws are in effect and which aren't...) these days.

But really, times have chaned, and I think if there is a god, even he must accept the evolution of his creation.

I agree, people these days aren't subservient robots anymore like they used to be; they've realized that the brain is there to be used (and this isn't to say that if you use your brain you won't be a Christian, on the contrary, I know a lot of Christians who use their brains).

Um, I thought it was 80% of all americans. And only about 20% of the WORLD are Christians.

I agree with butxifxnot in that many "Christians" are Christians in name only, forgive me for this butxifxnot, but I celebrate that, lol. "Christian" though is obviously very vague. Catholics are Christians, Mormons are, then all the various sects within Protestantism and Mormonism (thousands).

 

[Bradford]

Moved from General Apologetics- Formal Debates to Philosophy and Morality.

 

[repentandbelieve]

One of the main reasons that turned me off christianity is that in essence its a selfish religion. Its all about getting a 'key' to get into heaven, I wonder how many would still follow god if there was no heaven.

I was recently reading an article by a Christian who had 10 questions to ask Lord Buddha. Two of which were on the topic of being good and doing the right thing. The article was basically asking how would people be encouraged to do good without any God, so I ask this to you Christians. Why do you do good things? Is it because God tells you to or is it for the good of the person on the receiving end?

When I was a Christian I got the impression that a lot of people were only doing good things (ie not sinning) because its gods will! Why not just do good things for the good of others? Is that so alien?

What also concerned me was how many prayers are asked for self, ie "Please let me pass that exam, please let x happen etc" Very little of it was thanks or asking for help for others. Then there was the 'Totonto Blessing' which is another story!

I agree with your observation that we as Christians often pray selfishly. But I do not agree with your statement that Christianity is a selfish religion. It's the world that teaches selfishness.

The foundation of Christianity is based on the life of Jesus Christ who lived an unselfish life. In precept Christianity is as pure , it's principals are Holy. All corruption within the Church and it's members have been brought about through the devices of men.

Men are individually accountable to God, and each must act as God moves upon him, not as he is moved by the mind of another; for if this manner of labor is pursued, souls cannot be impressed and directed by the Spirit of the great I am. They will be kept under a restraint which allows no freedom of action or of choice.

It is not the will of God that His people remain in their present condition of selfishness.

The work of sanctification is a progressive work; it is not attained to in an hour or a day, it's the work of a lifetime and it cannot be maintained without special effort on our part.

So when you see Christians falling short of the life that Christ lived be understanding and forbearing with them.

 

[OccamsLaser]

Not to kill? What about all that lot of, stoning a woman for adultry? When I bring that up most Christians even say "Times Change" or..What Jesus said "Let he who is withouht sin, cast the first stone"(which of corse to imply she not need to be stoned).

Actually, it implies she still needed to be stoned, but only by God, since everyone else has committed sins. Unless, that is, if she believes in Jesus, then her sins are forgiven by God. The problem, of course, is that the sins of the stone-throwers are completely irrelevant to the imposition of punishment for the woman's sin of prostitution or adultery - punishment which was commanded by God. It's all fairly wacky.

But really, times have chaned, and I think if there is a god, even he must accept the evolution of his creation.

That would come as a huge disappointment to those who would hold fast to ancient laws prohibiting things like homosexuality and atheism. God's laws certainly shouldn't bend and sway to the whims of public preferences, should they?

Um, I thought it was 80% of all americans. And only about 20% of the WORLD are Christians.

It's more like 85% of Americans, and 32% of the world's population. That's only affiliation, though, not necessarily firm belief.

 

[SarcasmDispenser]

Actually, it implies she still needed to be stoned, but only by God, since everyone else has committed sins. Unless, that is, if she believes in Jesus, then her sins are forgiven by God. The problem, of course, is that the sins of the stone-throwers are completely irrelevant to the imposition of punishment for the woman's sin of prostitution or adultery - punishment which was commanded by God. It's all fairly wacky.

That's saying that we have no place to judge other people. I don't find it wacky at all.

 

[Bellyjean]

That's saying that we have no place to judge other people. I don't find it wacky at all.

I agree with the theory, but whether we like it or not we all judge each other. and if a person we loved was threatened we would have a biased veiw against the person who was threatening them, no matter what religion we are and what we preach...so perhaps it is a little wacky...

 

[SarcasmDispenser]

Yes we definitely do judge, and I understand where you're coming from ( I don't know if that's so much judging as it is protecting). I just don't get how Occam got that it to God should be stoning her out of it.

 

[sculpturegirl]

Strange... I was under the impression our good works do not get us into heaven?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves [it is] the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:5

AMEN! Good works are a result of an overabundance inthe heart because "He first loved us." Now, many people act as though good works earn them brownie points with God, but in Christianity that is not true.

 

[cabbitgrrrl]

I realise,and believe that without God I could not love,and enjoy the love my dear ones give me.

why not?

 

[FullyAmbivalent]

One of the main reasons that turned me off christianity is that in essence its a selfish religion. Its all about getting a 'key' to get into heaven, I wonder how many would still follow god if there was no heaven.

I was recently reading an article by a Christian who had 10 questions to ask Lord Buddha. Two of which were on the topic of being good and doing the right thing. The article was basically asking how would people be encouraged to do good without any God, so I ask this to you Christians. Why do you do good things? Is it because God tells you to or is it for the good of the person on the receiving end?

When I was a Christian I got the impression that a lot of people were only doing good things (ie not sinning) because its gods will! Why not just do good things for the good of others? Is that so alien?

What also concerned me was how many prayers are asked for self, ie "Please let me pass that exam, please let x happen etc" Very little of it was thanks or asking for help for others. Then there was the 'Totonto Blessing' which is another story!

I know how you are feeling bmoynihan. I was very turned off by the Christian religion for a long time. My main reason for this was because I saw most of those who go about telling everyone they are great Christians often did not so great things. So many times I encountered people who would pray and then use racial slurs in conversation. So many times I saw people in church balancing their check books or some other non important task. So many times did I see people with raised hands in worship, but the second they left the church could care less about the people around them. How selfish, to use religion as a means to bring temporary glorification to yourself; to make you feel good. It was like a lust for religion; a lust for Jesus and God. The problem with lusting after anything is that you miss the real meaning. When you lust for a woman, you miss her mind and spirit. When you lust you are only seeking to gratify yourself and your own needs. It is great to feel great, but is feeling great save us?



I know now that there are Christians that see the true meaning of what God teaches.



I read the Bible in order to disprove it. I wanted to justify my disapproval for the actions of people around me. Not in the sense that I could tell them they are wrong because the bible says this, but more so that I could say look what the bible preaches, what good is it.



I realized after reading the Bible that it is not the Bible or the Religion that had it wrong. It was the people. So many people allow the world to influence their religion. That man on TV said to kill them all in the name of the Lord? It must be true! NO.



The Bible and the Christian Religion (Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist religions as well.. plus others.) teach us to be mindful of our time on earth and that we should love and respect each other. We are taught that we must be mindful. We must live a righteous life. We must love and seek peace. We must explore and understand. We must be strong when we are weak and weak when we are strong. We must give to those who are in need.



All of these can be done without the Bible or without Jesus. Some would like to tell you differently. What Jesus gives us is something to be faithful in and something to remind us of what our life is meant to be like. What Jesus gives us is a foundation to build on. He is our rock. He is our goal. We are to live as Jesus lived. Just as a Buddhist is to live as Buddha did. Just as a Muslim is to live as Mohammad did.



We should have faith that in believing in Jesus we will be saved, but part of believing and accepting Jesus is living as Jesus lived.



How can you have faith in Jesus but not have faith that we can live as Jesus lived? The biggest message in the New Testament is that we must worship in action. We must love in action. We must forgive in action. We must give in action. We must be selfless.



In 1 Peter 1:13-17 we read, “Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy (lev. 11:44,45; 19:2 ; 20:7)’ Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.”



In 1 Peter 1:22-23 we read, “Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”



We learn here that we must obey the truth of Gods law to purify your self and to be saved. Jesus teaches God’s law. Jesus and God are one. So to be pure you must first take action and obey the law of God and then you are fit for salvation through Christ.



However, if we look to Romans 2:6-15 we learn from Paul, “God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done. (Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12).’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.



All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, now even defending them.)”



This tells me that actions are more important then words and faith is nothing without actions. We are not saved if we sit around saying, “oh, I believe in Jesus and I feel warm in side” and do nothing to obey the Laws of God. Do you think God will really see this ideal selfishness as a saving grace? What Paul is saying to us in the text above is that actions are so important that even if you do not have the law, but by natural desire for good follow them, that you are just as faithful as those who know the law and follow it. If you have faith in and obey the law without having the law or knowing the law are you not in a subconscious way showing your faith in the Teachings of Jesus?



What I also read here is that if you have the law and you know the law but you still fall short of the law you are not saved. Simple faith without action does not bring salvation. What good are you to God if you do no good to your own self or other creations of God?



I know some of you are now going to rebuke with the line, “we are not perfect and cannot ever truly follow the Law of God without failing” but I tell you to read Deuteronomy 30:1-14. This text reads as follows:



“When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, 'Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, 'Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."



Why do you say it is so difficult to follow God’s Laws when he tells you it is not? It is a matter of faith. Do you have faith in love? Do you have faith in forgiveness? Do you have faith in turning the other cheek? Do you have faith in Jesus?



To enter heaven through Jesus is to take Jesus in your heart. To take Jesus into your heart means to make your self as Jesus was.



Are not those who make themselves as Jesus was, even without knowing, also taking Jesus into their hearts and in so doing are they not also granting themselves salvation?



With all that said. It seems that the most important lesson to learn is to be selfless and to love.

 

[elman]

Why do you do good things? Is it because God tells you to or is it for the good of the person on the receiving end?"

It is because I know that is what God want me to do and I know that the consequences of being loving are good for me and for others around me both now and forever. I also know that being unloving has bad consequences for me and for the people around me.

 

[sculpturegirl]

Fully Ambivelent- You have mentioned a lot of good points. I would just like to add and reiterate, that it isn't OUR righteousness that gets us to heaven, but Christ's. We are saved by grace through faith.

 

[FullyAmbivalent]

Interesting that you use the word "compassion," because it means inner suffering.

Compassion is a deep awareness of suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.