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Why do Dispies count Daniels 'weeks' from Artaxerxes 20th year?

Christian Gedge

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Admittedly, the twentieth-year start point for Daniel’s 70 weeks has had its supporters. Their problem though, is that a count of 483 years (69 x 7) from 444 BC comes to AD 40, a date which arrives well after Jesus died. So, proponents of the 444 BC terminus a quo resort to various 'short-year' theories to make the prophecy fit. For example, the early church historian, Julius Africanus, proposed that Daniels ‘weeks’ were being counted on a pure lunar year of 354 days. Others wondered if the calendar found in the Book of Enoch might solve the problem? That one had 364 days.

The best-known theory is the 360-day 'prophetic year' put forward by Sir Robert Anderson in AD 1895 to bolster the then emerging ‘dispensational’ system of prophecy. He multiplied 483 years by 360 and got 173880 days. He then divided it by the number of days in a normal year (365¼ days), added it to 445 BC, and arrived at the time (he said) of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem in AD 32.

Anderson’s dates had to be adjusted by Dr. Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary to 444 BC and AD 33 (Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ. Harold Hoehner, 1973) where they remain the basic foundational dates for the doctrine of a future 'seventieth week' held by many prophetic teachers to this day

This is where it comes from! There is no other scriptural source for the claim that the seventieth week was unhooked from the 69 weeks and sent to the future. However, Anderson and Hoehner’s theory is seriously flawed.
 
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Christian Gedge

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I don't recall Sir Robert Anderson's theory being debated here, or Harold Hoehner's amendment. If not, it needs to be, because it provides the mathematical basis for the weeks being "stopped" after the 69th week.
 
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food4thought

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Admittedly, the twentieth-year start point for Daniel’s 70 weeks has had its supporters. Their problem though, is that a count of 483 years (69 x 7) from 444 BC comes to AD 40, a date which arrives well after Jesus died. So, proponents of the 444 BC terminus a quo resort to various 'short-year' theories to make the prophecy fit. For example, the early church historian, Julius Africanus, proposed that Daniels ‘weeks’ were being counted on a pure lunar year of 354 days. Others wondered if the calendar found in the Book of Enoch might solve the problem? That one had 364 days.

The best-known theory is the 360-day 'prophetic year' put forward by Sir Robert Anderson in AD 1895 to bolster the then emerging ‘dispensational’ system of prophecy. He multiplied 483 years by 360 and got 173880 days. He then divided it by the number of days in a normal year (365¼ days), added it to 445 BC, and arrived at the time (he said) of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem in AD 32.

Anderson’s dates had to be adjusted by Dr. Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary to 444 BC and AD 33 (Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ. Harold Hoehner, 1973) where they remain the basic foundational dates for the doctrine of a future 'seventieth week' held by many prophetic teachers to this day

This is where it comes from! There is no other scriptural source for the claim that the seventieth week was unhooked from the 69 weeks and sent to the future. However, Anderson and Hoehner’s theory is seriously flawed.

Hi, Christian Gedge. Even dispensationalists are not in agreement here. I see validity to the 360 day "prophetic" year, but 445/444 BC is not the only date proposed by dispensationalists. One particularly interesting view is the one that starts the first 69 weeks at the decree of Artaxerxes I to Ezra in 458 BC. Adding 483 regular years to this decree would bring us to 26 AD, a time when many scholars believe that Jesus was baptized and began His public ministry.

Hope this helps;
Michael
 
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Christian Gedge

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Yes, I agree with Artaxerxes 7th year to start. However, it doesn’t require a 360-day year to make it work. Just good ol’ 365.25 days gets us to Christ’s revealing without any tricky arithmetic.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is where it comes from! There is no other scriptural source for the claim that the seventieth week was unhooked from the 69 weeks and sent to the future. However, Anderson and Hoehner’s theory is seriously flawed.
I do not know exactly what you mean by the words "no other scriptural source" in this statement. For you did not give even one "scriptural" source in your entire post. But it appears that you are speaking of sources commenting about the scriptures. And if that was what you meant, your information is sorely lacking.

The hard truth is, that all the earliest "Church Fathers" who commented on this passage interpreted it to involve a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks.

The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day is the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heretics." In this work, Irenarus said:

"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." (“Against Heresies”, by Irenaeus, book 5, chapter 25, “The fraud, pride, and tyrannical kingdom of Antichrist, as described by Daniel and Paul,” paragraph 4.)

Here we see Irenaeus, in describing the events he foresaw as coming in the future, explicitly quoting from Daniel’s prophecy of the seventieth week, saying, “And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.” This is a quotation of Daniel 9:27, the last verse of Daniel’s discussion of what would take place in the seventy weeks of his prophecy.

Again, the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) that has survived to the present day is a commentary on the book of Daniel written by Hippolytus. In this work Hippolytus said:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world.
"After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (“Commentary on Daniel”, by Hippolytus, Book 4, 35.3, from a draft copy of the forthcoming translation by T. C. Schmidt.)

Much has been made of the comments by Clement of Alexandria, as he thought that the seventieth week had been fulfilled. But he interpreted the last half week to be the time of the siege of Jerusalem, which, as we all know, is thought to have ended in 70 A.D., or nearly 40 years after Messiah was cut off, which Daniel explicitly states would be "after the sixty-two weeks." As 40 years is MUCH longer than a "week," regardless of how the term is interpreted, we see that Clement of Alexandria also had a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks. Yes, it was much shorter than the gap seen by Irenaeus and Hippolytus, but it was just as definitely there in his interpretation as well.

Again, although his works have not been independently preserved, Jerome quoted Apollinarius of Laodicea as having said that “Jerusalem and the Temple shall be rebuilt during three and a half years within the final week.”(Jerome’s translation of the comments of Apollinarius of Laodicea on the seventy weeks, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” by Jerome, pp. 104-105, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., pub. by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

The only other "Church Fathers" that we know about who commented on this passage were Eusebius, Origen, and Tertullian, all of whom thought the seventy weeks had been fulfilled.

But from this we see that more than half of all the so-called "Church Fathers" who commented on this passage, including the earliest ones, saw a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks.

You correctly observed that Juilus Africanus thought we should calculate these years based on a 354 day year, but he said this due to an erroneous conclusion that the Hebrew year was 354 days. But numerous scriptures clearly show that in Bible days, the Hebrew "year" was divided into 12 "months" of 30 days each, that is, 360 days total. This is seen in the twelve (30day) courses of the priesthood set up by Solomon and by the fact that all the time periods specified in Bible prophecy line up and correspond exactly when we count a year as 12 months of 30 days each. Thus, when calculated this way, half a week, 3-1/2 years, 42 months, and 1260 days, are all exactly the same. So just by inspection, it is obvious that this was done.

We also should note that the Bible never, even once, calls any of these periods a "year." In both testaments, it uses terms that would obviously be understood to mean a year, but it never, even once, uses that word. So people who want to insist that 365-1/4 day years were meant, have zero scriptural or historical basis for their claim.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Bump :liturgy:

The dispensational system needs to use the decree of Artaxerxes in the 20th year of his reign in the month of Nisan. But no where does the text say what date in Nisan. They "assume" Nisan 1 without any proof whatsoever. Yes, Artaxerxes’ earlier decree was on the 1st day of Nisan of his seventh year, (457 BC) whereas the second command given in his twentieth year (444 BC) is only recorded as *sometime* during the month of Nisan.

"In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes ... I said to the king, "If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, that you send me to Judah." (Nehemiah 2:1,5)

So, Anderson’s 360-day year theory requires the count to start on the first day of Nisan. Indeed, his entire construction – an edifice of numbers stands or falls on this date even though it is not actually mentioned. Such an assumption should not be allowed to go unchallenged!

But the correct day can be found. To find it with accuracy, we need to work backwards from the completion of the Jerusalem wall. Solid dates are provided for this project, the most obvious being its completion on the 25th of Elul 444 BC. (Nehemiah 6:15) This was 21st September. Therefore, tracing back 52 days leads us to 31st July when the job began. Nehemiah had rested three days after his journey from Babylon, so his arrival in Jerusalem was on the 28th July 444 BC.

Let us now discover the time it took to travel from Babylon to Jerusalem and our answer will be there …
 
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