Why do Creationists Hate Animals?

[SkyWriting]

In theory it's possible for the world to be vegetarian, but not vegan.

You mean vegans can't live? I thought they do ok. Though they usually look a bit thin.

And we are the only species on the planet to consume milk from other animals. Some say it's a dietary mistake.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

You mean vegans can't live? I thought they do ok. Though they usually look a bit thin.

Lots of people live as vegetarians (India alone has 399 million vegetarians) but I don't think veganism on a large scale is possible. It's not healthy and they rely too much on synthetic products.

And we are the only species on the planet to consume milk from other animals. Some say it's a dietary mistake.

Dairy products are only one example - there's also eggs, honey, skin, feathers. Other animals like cows, horses, birds and even otters are used for farming and hunting.

 

[SkyWriting]

Lots of people live as vegetarians (India alone has 399 million vegetarians) but I don't think veganism on a large scale is possible. It's not healthy and they rely too much on synthetic products. Dairy products are only one example - there's also eggs, honey, skin, feathers. Other animals like cows, horses, birds and even otters are used for farming and hunting.

I can't fathom what your talking about. Vegans are about .5% of the population for the US and UK. As for the animal kingdom, I imagine most vegetarian animals are Vegan. Wild animals rarely get their claws on synthetic foods.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I can't fathom what your talking about. Vegans are about .5% of the population for the US and UK. As for the animal kingdom, I imagine most vegetarian animals are Vegan. Wild animals rarely get their claws on synthetic foods.

You originally wrote "Because the earth is cursed, it no longer provides enough food for us [to] easily eat just plants." I replied by saying there is clearly enough plant food in the world to support billions of people - not to mention billions more animals.

Now you've contradicted yourself by pointing out plenty of animals are herbivores and plenty of people are vegan. So obviously the Earth does provide enough plant food for us to eat ...

Which goes back to my OP: why aren't most Creationists vegetarians? It's not as though we'd starve to death if we didn't eat meat.

 

[SkyWriting]

So obviously the Earth does provide enough plant food for us to eat ...

I'mmmmmm not seein' it...

World Hunger Notes Homepage

 

[Mr.Waffles]

...Creationists wrongly assume that there was literally no death before the Fall. This means there was no predation or extinction. This is turns leads to more wrong assumptions...

1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7 Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea. 10 Then in that day
The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
Who will stand as a [b]signal for the peoples;
And His resting place will be [c]glorious.

-Isaiah 11

Speaking of predation. Though those ideas are kind of inevitable when we exchange theological truth for materialistic rationalizing.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I'mmmmmm not seein' it...

World Hunger Notes Homepage

World hunger is caused by inequality, not lack of food. In most first world nations (and even some developing nations) obesity-related disorders are one of the leading causes of death. Almost a third of the world's food is wasted (link). People in poorer countries are hungry not because there is no food, but because they can't afford it.

 

[Assyrian]

1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7 Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea. 10 Then in that day
The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
Who will stand as a [b]signal for the peoples;
And His resting place will be [c]glorious.

-Isaiah 11

Speaking of predation. Though those ideas are kind of inevitable when we exchange theological truth for materialistic rationalizing.

There are two problems with the popular creationist use of this passage, firstly, it is a prophecy about the future not a description of the creation. Even more problematic, it is a highly figurative passage so it is not clear it is describing actual reformed predators. If those are literal lions and tigers and bears, was David's dad a literal tree stump?

 

[SkyWriting]

World hunger is caused by inequality, not lack of food.

I don't know what inequality means to you, so it's hard to agree or not.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I don't know what inequality means to you, so it's hard to agree or not.

It means "not equal". In other words only a tiny percent of the world's population is getting the majority of the world's food.

 

[SkyWriting]

It means "not equal". In other words only a tiny percent of the world's population is getting the majority of the world's food.

And the world's computers, access to stimulating forums, shoes, clean air, viruses, war, raised bed gardens, wallpaper, toothpaste, good dirt, crude oil, wind power, lake Michigan, Chicago deep dish pizza, snow cones, good surfing waves, permanent markers, greeting cards, post it notes, wireless mice, halogen bulbs, usb slots.
Lots of inequality to rail about.
Shingles, window glass........

 

[jackmt]

You mean vegans can't live? I thought they do ok. Though they usually look a bit thin.

And we are the only species on the planet to consume milk from other animals. Some say it's a dietary mistake.

One species of ants are dairy farmers of sorts. They herd and 'milk' aphids. A minor point, but God says to study the ant. Prov.6:6

There was a statistic about 30 years ago that didn't get the air time I think it needed. It needs to be updated for the increase in population, but the value of it still holds. In the 1980's you could fit the entire population of the world within one half of the city limits of Jacksonville, Fla. with every person having 1 square yard of space, leaving the rest of the world to grow food in.

Another framing of the population situation had everyone in the world, four to a household, occupying 7 acres of land in only the lower 48 states.

Concerning starvation: There are 3 main causes of starvation and they are all localized causes. 1. Natural disasters. 2. Bad religion (e.g., Hinduism). 3. Incompetent or evil government.

So much for the world being overpopulated. There is room enough in this world for all of God's creatures, right next to the mashed potatoes.

 

[gluadys]

Concerning starvation: There are 3 main causes of starvation and they are all localized causes. 1. Natural disasters. 2. Bad religion (e.g., Hinduism). 3. Incompetent or evil government.

So much for the world being overpopulated. There is room enough in this world for all of God's creatures, right next to the mashed potatoes.

I agree that overpopulation is not the problem and in any case it would take care of itself if all families could feed their kids.

But I don't think there are three causes of starvation: only one. That is treating food as a commodity on which to make profit instead of as a right everyone is entitled to.

Coincidentally, I was listening to Frances Moore Lappe tonight, live, in Toronto. She says (and I agree) that talk of "scarcity" should always be modified by the phrase "human-made". Nature provides in abundance; it takes human greed and mismanagement to turn that abundance into scarcity.

 

[shernren]

I don't know what inequality means to you, so it's hard to agree or not.

What inequality means to me is this:

"If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million," David Pimentel, professor of ecology in Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, reported at the July 24-26 meeting of the Canadian Society of Animal Science in Montreal.​

Cornell Science News: Livestock Production

Do you get that? The current population of the entire African continent is about 1 billion people. If the entire US were to go vegan, 80% of those people could be fed.

Indeed, creationism has the potential to do some extremely radical, responsible theologizing - God's original plan for creation was for the land to sustain all life by the produce of green plants (or so creationists claim to believe), AND He mandates that the poor must be provided for. Why not kill two birds (oops!) with one stone, champion a vegetarian creationism (since apparently half the US is creationist - or so they claim), and funnel all the hence-uneaten grain to poor countries? That would be an unprecedented act of charity which nobody could deny, while probably bringing good profit to US farmers.

The problem, of course, is that most creationists believe that animal death is a terrible, tragic thing - as long as they're not benefiting from it.

 

[shernren]

Actually, I'm considering going vegetarian.

UN urges global move to meat and dairy-free diet | Environment | guardian.co.uk

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

What inequality means to me is this:

"If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million," David Pimentel, professor of ecology in Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, reported at the July 24-26 meeting of the Canadian Society of Animal Science in Montreal.
​

Cornell Science News: Livestock Production

Do you get that? The current population of the entire African continent is about 1 billion people. If the entire US were to go vegan, 80% of those people could be fed.

Sorry to trample all over your argument Shernren but I doubt that would work:

Going vegetarian would lead to less meat comsumption, but we would still need to provide food for animals if we intend to use their milk, eggs, feathers or skin - not to mention animals we use for work, such as horses. We'd be giving them the same amount of resources and getting less in return.

Going vegan would mean giving animals no resources at all, since they don't use any animal products, but it's not a very healthy lifestyle. There have been lots of studies on vegetarian diets, most of them saying how much healthier they are than meat-eating diets, but very few on vegans. The ones they have are not encouraging. One study (link) showed that while vegetarians children have a higher IQ than meat-eaters, vegans had lower IQs than both.

Vegans also rely too much on synthetic products, which are just as bad (if not worse) for the environment than natural ones.

-------------------

Here's something I'll bet many of us didn't know - obesity is becoming a huge problem in developing countries:

Yes, millions of people around the world still suffer from malnutrition and starvation, yet the rich people are becoming increasingly fat.

The problem - as it has always been - is not lack of food but poverty. Notice that the fattest areas are the Middle East and North Africa, home to all those Arab billionaires and monarchs. Some of them even force-feed their daughters like geese because, unlike Europe or the USA, in these places fat women are very desireable.

 

[SkyWriting]

Some of them even force-feed their daughters like geese because, unlike Europe or the USA, in these places fat women are very desireable.

Are you sure it's due to intentional choices?

Lab Animals and Pets Face Obesity Epidemic: Scientific American

Can Birth Control Hormones Be Filtered from the Water Supply?: Scientific American

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

SkyWriting: I don't know all the details about why people in developing countries are getting so fat, it's probably a combination of things. I originally wrote that it was the rich who were becoming obese but maybe I'm wrong - for the first time in history (in the USA and Europe at least) the poor are fat and the wealthy are slim.

Perhaps we can blame fast food for that. You can go to places which have no indoor plumbing, perhaps not even running water, and still buy a coca-cola ...

 

[SkyWriting]

SkyWriting: I don't know all the details about why people in developing countries are getting so fat, it's probably a combination of things. I originally wrote that it was the rich who were becoming obese but maybe I'm wrong - for the first time in history (in the USA and Europe at least) the poor are fat and the wealthy are slim.

Perhaps we can blame fast food for that. You can go to places which have no indoor plumbing, perhaps not even running water, and still buy a coca-cola ...

If lab rats are getting obese, you have to consider the water.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

There are two problems with the popular creationist use of this passage, firstly, it is a prophecy about the future not a description of the creation. Even more problematic, it is a highly figurative passage so it is not clear it is describing actual reformed predators. If those are literal lions and tigers and bears, was David's dad a literal tree stump?

Please explain to me how such a passage can possibly be metaphorical, or how it is "highly figurative"? Did it not occur to you that you are attempting to apply one interpretation across the board? We know that David's dad isn't a tree stump, so that means everything else in the Bible must be figurative, of course!

Yes, the lamb will graze with the lion "metaphorically", the child will play by the viper's den "metaphorically". Hm, I read that the whole earth will be "filled with the knowledge of God, and they shall not cause harm in all of His holy mountain", I guess that is metaphorical too. In fact, I guess the entire Bible is one giant figurative story.

And please, do not reference me as a creationist. Ever. I am no more a creationist than you are, and yes you are if you believe in the Creator. Reason being I've come to know what comes attached with that term, and I cannot stand it. This whole categorizing of fellow believers is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.