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Why do Creationists Hate Animals?

SkyWriting

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So which is it? Was creation meant to be vegetarian or not? Should creationists really be outraged that "the perception of animals eating other animals is seen as normal in today’s secular, evolution-influenced society" (here) when it is also a reality in almost every creationist home?

The idea of all animals living off the bounty of the earth, if it was the case, only applies to the earth before man caused our earth to be separated from God. You can be sure that when God walked in the Garden, it provided all that any animal needed.

After the separation, the earth was no longer plentiful, and man would have to work "to make a living." After after Sin and Death entered to world, through Adam, the entire Cosmos became an illustration for Hypocrisy. We ALL live in Sin. Those who accept forgiveness for our sins are obligated to not sin on purpose as much as we can. But we are not yet in Heaven so our environment usually wins out.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'll bite.

Life as defined by the Bible does not include plant "life". Life doesn't come about until animals on the 5th day.

It wasn't a trick question, so no reason to bite. I think it's worthy of thought is all.

How do you conclude that the Bible doesn't regard plant life to be actual life?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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According to AiG plants are not classified as nephesh so no. Insects are a bit of a gray area maybe?

The ICR apparently has an article dedicated to this very thing. And it seems to place sponges and "lower animal life" outside of actual life.

I'll be honest, this wasn't something I remember ever encountering when I was a YEC, and it's not something I thought about until recently (even though I'm not a YEC any longer).

This seems....bizarre....to me.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gozreht

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Predation was never mention directly in the creation story - and there's certainly no mention of it being sinful. Other passages say God willingly provides food for carnivores.
Sure. No disagreement.

This just raises even more questions - predation supposedly came after the Fall. But here you say it came after the flood. Which is it? If eating meat came after the Fall, what did wolves and lions on Noah's ark have to eat? If eating meat came after the flood (because there were no plants), what did creatures like rabbits and deer eat?
That was my opinion. However, I will stick to it. All animals were herbivores. Evolutionists have a probelm with that because animals such as dogs have teeth designed for ripping and tearing. Why would they have these teeth if they didn't need them? Who said they had them at first. Maybe this is where evolution comes in. Maybe God called animals that had mutated teeth into the ark. Most of you say evolution can be a fast change in a small amount of time. If you can accept that then this could be a possibility. I don't know I wasn't there. So on the ark they ate grain, berries, fruit, grass, whatver they had eaten before is what I would say.


Keep in mind that the story of the Fall was only directed at people - which is why it seems so strange that animals should be affected by human sin. What about all the creatures which went extinct before humans appeared? Or were humans the only creatures in Eden which could have lived forever?
That is a belief held by evolutionist so in my opinion there was no extinction before the fall. Anything that had access to the Tree of Life probably would live forever.
 
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jpcedotal

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It wasn't a trick question, so no reason to bite. I think it's worthy of thought is all.

How do you conclude that the Bible doesn't regard plant life to be actual life?

-CryptoLutheran

Gen 1:11-13 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. (12) And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. (13) So the evening and the morning were the third day.

No mention of life here, just plant growth and plant reproduction. Now, man defines this as life but God does not.

Gen 1:20-23 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." (21) So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. (22) And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." (23) So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Here is where God defines life with creatures. There is no soul here, only physical life.

Gen 1:29-31 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. (30) Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so. (31) Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Plants are only food for life, but not life itself. To God, life is more than just growth and reproduction though it does include these things.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No mention of life here, just plant growth and plant reproduction. Now, man defines this as life but God does not.

That seems like pretty gigantic stretch to make that claim based on what the text actually says.

Here is where God defines life with creatures. There is no soul here, only physical life.

How is this properly life but not the former? I don't see how you're addressing this beyond a rather large eisegesis on your part.

Plants are only food for life, but not life itself. To God, life is more than just growth and reproduction though it does include these things.
Then not just plants aren't living, but other things as well such as single-celled organisms. How about sponges or sea cucumbers?

How is this line drawn exactly?

It seems not only arbitrary, but also--again--like a complete and irresponsible misappropriation of the text.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Gozreht said:
That was my opinion. However, I will stick to it. All animals were herbivores. Evolutionists have a probelm with that because animals such as dogs have teeth designed for ripping and tearing. Why would they have these teeth if they didn't need them? Who said they had them at first. Maybe this is where evolution comes in. Maybe God called animals that had mutated teeth into the ark. Most of you say evolution can be a fast change in a small amount of time. If you can accept that then this could be a possibility. I don't know I wasn't there. So on the ark they ate grain, berries, fruit, grass, whatver they had eaten before is what I would say.
As you say, that's an opinion. It still doesn't explain why animals should suffer because of sins humans commited, nor does it explain why animals which lived before humans were clearly carnivores, or even what herbivores ate if there were no plants - but that's a different topic.

The more the literal interpretation of Gensis is disproved, the more liberties we have to take to try and explain it.

ViaCrucis said:
Then not just plants aren't living, but other things as well such as single-celled organisms. How about sponges or sea cucumbers?

How is this line drawn exactly?

It seems not only arbitrary, but also--again--like a complete and irresponsible misappropriation of the text.

Good point. The biological definiton is that life ...
  1. Is Organic / Carbon-based. Not everything organic is alive, but all living things are organic.
  2. Has four DNA bases: Guanine (G), Adenine (A), Thymine (T) and Cytosine (C). G is aways paired with C and A is always paired with T.
  3. Replicates itself.
These three features are shared by all living things. DNA and reproduction in particular distinguish life from non-life. So why are animals and people considered "life" but plants and insects are not?
 
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shernren

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The idea of all animals living off the bounty of the earth, if it was the case, only applies to the earth before man caused our earth to be separated from God. You can be sure that when God walked in the Garden, it provided all that any animal needed.

After the separation, the earth was no longer plentiful, and man would have to work "to make a living." After after Sin and Death entered to world, through Adam, the entire Cosmos became an illustration for Hypocrisy. We ALL live in Sin. Those who accept forgiveness for our sins are obligated to not sin on purpose as much as we can. But we are not yet in Heaven so our environment usually wins out.

Yes, but don't forget that in the curse of Genesis 3 man was to sweat for his food because the ground would bear him thorns and thistles. Not because chasing down wild boar and buffalo herds is tough.

And can you really imagine yourself or any other creationist standing before God and blaming ... the environment? "Yes, God, I know You didn't create chickens and cows to be eaten. Animal death was never a part of Your good plan for creation. But why did You have to make them so delicious?"

If you really are willing to acknowledge that to eat meat is (if you are consistent) to wallow in the consequences of sin, then I can only echo Jesus' words: "Go, and sin no more." If you are not, then you don't really believe that there's anything so much better about animals not dying than about them dying.

The ICR apparently has an article dedicated to this very thing. And it seems to place sponges and "lower animal life" outside of actual life.

I'll be honest, this wasn't something I remember ever encountering when I was a YEC, and it's not something I thought about until recently (even though I'm not a YEC any longer).

This seems....bizarre....to me.

-CryptoLutheran

And to me too! But you need to remember that within the creationist worldview almost any biology done in the past hundred years has got an evolutionist tinge to it, and that includes the indiscriminate labeling of animal and plant alike as "life". ("Yeah, sure, after all you assume that they all descended from the same primitive gloopy soup!")

Biblically at least there was certainly a phenomenological distinction between animal and plant life. One can say with Ecclesiastes that the breath of an animal returns to the Earth when it dies; but without modern biology there is no similar line to be drawn between a live tree and a dead tree, or indeed a good and a bad one (you have to wait for it to fruit or not fruit - whence many of Jesus' parables and sayings about tree and fruit). There are clean and unclean animals, but not clean and unclean plants (though some certainly aren't fit for consumption).

And this accords with our qualitative experience as well. Sure, it's a cute little technicality to trip creationists up on, but do we actually live that way - as if plant life is qualitatively the same as animal life? We certainly feel very little for a plant when we pluck its fruit, seed or flowers. (Has anyone ever sparked moral outrage over us celebrating Valentine's Day with the dismembered gonads of angiosperms, or feasting everyday on the babies or limbs of a million green lives?) For that matter, when you swallow an oyster or eat a scallop, it's hard to feel that you've just swallowed whole something alive - unlike the moral outrage people feel when they see a suckling pig, say, or the Japanese specialty of sushi prepared using fish fresh enough to show muscular spasms. For that matter, people still debate whether or not even crustaceans like lobsters actually have a complex enough nervous system to even feel what we would call "pain".

So I would say that, new though the idea seems (you're right, I'd never encountered it before switching sides), it does make some sense from their point of view.
 
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Gozreht

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As you say, that's an opinion. It still doesn't explain why animals should suffer because of sins humans commited, nor does it explain why animals which lived before humans were clearly carnivores, or even what herbivores ate if there were no plants - but that's a different topic.

The more the literal interpretation of Gensis is disproved, the more liberties we have to take to try and explain it.
Nothing will "explain" why animals suffer because of us. Nothing I say, even if it was in the Bible specifically, "And animals suffer because of...", can explain to us why they have problems due to us. It doesn't make sense to me either. If I was God I would have done everything different. But maybe me not being God is a good thing. I am not omnipotent. :wave:

And just because we would have more liberties does not make us any better. Sometimes it makes things worse. Paul said all things are permitted but not all is beneficial. The question is why do we want to disprove Genesis like that? Just because it doesn't agree with evolutionary science? I hope not.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Gozreht said:
The question is why do we want to disprove Genesis like that? Just because it doesn't agree with evolutionary science? I hope not.
That's pretty much what every question in Origins Theology is about. :p I could claim that all the evidence from science is completely wrong and follow everything in the Bible. Not only is it very unlikely that all the natural sciences are wrong, but makes me look ignorant.

Alternatively I could say science has a lot of evidence which contradicts the Bible and ignore it altogether, but I don't like the idea of becoming one of those egotistical atheists who treat science as though it were a religion.

Or I could take the third option - which is that my interpretation of Genesis is wrong. Maybe Adam wasn't the first human, but perhaps he was the first human to receive a soul. Or maybe he was a symbol for early humanity. That's the option most theistic evolutionists take.
 
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shernren

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Nothing will "explain" why animals suffer because of us. Nothing I say, even if it was in the Bible specifically, "And animals suffer because of...", can explain to us why they have problems due to us. It doesn't make sense to me either. If I was God I would have done everything different. But maybe me not being God is a good thing. I am not omnipotent. :wave:

But that's just the problem, isn't it? There simply isn't anything in the Bible that specifically says "And animals suffer because of ... ". If there was, you can bet this thread would have been a lot shorter.

Furthermore, do you really believe that it is such a terrible shame that animals die? Do you really believe that it is such a terrible shame that animals suffer? If you do, then why are you participating daily in the torture and slaughter of animals? Or are we like children who will weep bitterly when our pets die and ask "Will my dog go to heaven?" - only to care nothing for the thousands of chickens we have eagerly gobbled up over dinner?

Maybe, just maybe, the idea that animals die only because of our sin doesn't make any sense to you because it doesn't make any difference to you either.

And just because we would have more liberties does not make us any better. Sometimes it makes things worse. Paul said all things are permitted but not all is beneficial. The question is why do we want to disprove Genesis like that? Just because it doesn't agree with evolutionary science? I hope not.

I'm not disproving Genesis - all I'm suggesting is that maybe when God said "very good", He was saying it over a world in which animals could and did die. Creationists fling themselves over that edge every time they say "That was a really good steak!" anyway. It's simply a matter of recognizing what you implicitly believe.
 
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Gozreht

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Furthermore, do you really believe that it is such a terrible shame that animals die? Do you really believe that it is such a terrible shame that animals suffer? If you do, then why are you participating daily in the torture and slaughter of animals? Or are we like children who will weep bitterly when our pets die and ask "Will my dog go to heaven?" - only to care nothing for the thousands of chickens we have eagerly gobbled up over dinner?

Maybe, just maybe, the idea that animals die only because of our sin doesn't make any sense to you because it doesn't make any difference to you either.
HOW DARE YOU! This was uncalled for, rude, and very assuming on your account. I do have 8 pets. My wife and I rescue them from the outside world. I believe in all life. I would never kill one of these animals. If times were different and I had to kill for food, it may be different and you would too. So do not sit there and condemn me for what YOU DO NOT KNOW.

The Bible, not me, says God gave everything for food. The body needs protein, and plants do not give all we need. Yes. I have steak. I do not torture the animals. If I find that the farm it was raised in tortures the animals I protest and boycott. If they are fed animal stock, I protest and boycott.

Do you think God was wrong for animal sacrifices? He actually handed over a lamb to Abraham. Do you think God is wrong for allowing humans to suffer when all He has to do is breath and the situation can change. God must be a murderer. God must be a jerk then huh?

To sit there and say these things just shows your ignorance of all the things around you. So out of respect for each other I will not comment to you or on anything else you say and I expect the same from you.
 
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Gozreht

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That's pretty much what every question in Origins Theology is about. :p I could claim that all the evidence from science is completely wrong and follow everything in the Bible. Not only is it very unlikely that all the natural sciences are wrong, but makes me look ignorant.
(in a calmer mode) That may be what many "creationists" have a problem with. It seems to many of them that science/evolutionist/ and as you said egotistical atheists:thumbsup:, ar eonly out there to prove Genesis wrong. Not even as just literal history but the foundations of Christianity. I try not to fit science into the bible and I try not to fit the bible into science. I try and see if there is any connections. If I see a contradiction, then I stay on what I see as the biblical side.

Alternatively I could say science has a lot of evidence which contradicts the Bible and ignore it altogether, but I don't like the idea of becoming one of those egotistical atheists who treat science as though it were a religion.
Thank you for this paragraph.

Or I could take the third option - which is that my interpretation of Genesis is wrong. Maybe Adam wasn't the first human, but perhaps he was the first human to receive a soul. Or maybe he was a symbol for early humanity. That's the option most theistic evolutionists take.
Maybe. I just see the bible saying it differently.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, but don't forget that in the curse of Genesis 3 man was to sweat for his food because the ground would bear him thorns and thistles. Not because chasing down wild boar and buffalo herds is tough.

And can you really imagine yourself or any other creationist standing before God and blaming ... the environment? "Yes, God, I know You didn't create chickens and cows to be eaten. Animal death was never a part of Your good plan for creation. But why did You have to make them so delicious?".

God is aware that we live on an Earth ruled by Satan. We are saved by Grace not of our own efforts.

Because the earth is cursed, it no longer provides enough food for us easily eat just plants. So animals are allowed. Evidently humans are not animals, else that would be permissible as well. "Religion" bias or not.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Gozreht said:
That may be what many "creationists" have a problem with. It seems to many of them that science/evolutionist/ and as you said egotistical atheists:thumbsup:, ar eonly out there to prove Genesis wrong. Not even as just literal history but the foundations of Christianity. I try not to fit science into the bible and I try not to fit the bible into science. I try and see if there is any connections. If I see a contradiction, then I stay on what I see as the biblical side.
I don't think believing in evolution will get you into heaven, but a Christian should have a fairly good knowledge of science. Evolution in particular gets a lot of attention because it unites a lot of the natural sciences - like germ theory and genetics. Creationism creates a pointless fight between science and religion; the more belligerent atheists like to use this because they have evidence on their side.

BTW I'm pretty sure Shernren wasn't trying to annoy you. :p

----------------------------------

SkyWriting said:
We are saved by Grace not of our own efforts.
This isn't really the place to talk about it, but we're not saved by grace / faith alone. James 2:24 says "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

The reason I mention it is because being moral is one of the things which separates us from animals. We can't just sit back and do nothing, confident that we're going to heaven just because we believe all the right things - any religion which advocates that idea is probably a con.
 
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SkyWriting

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This isn't really the place to talk about it, but we're not saved by grace / faith alone. James 2:24 says "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." The reason I mention it is because being moral is one of the things which separates us from animals. We can't just sit back and do nothing, confident that we're going to heaven just because we believe all the right things - any religion which advocates that idea is probably a con.

Then you must have the wrong idea of what " considered righteous " means.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Further study.
Bible and Library Search: grace saved
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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SkyWriting said:

You can't disprove one passage from the Bible by using another; that would be cherry-picking. Should we just ignore what the Book of James says? Besides, the rest of the passage reads -
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

But if you want to talk about it, best create another thread.
 
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jackmt

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As you say, that's an opinion. It still doesn't explain why animals should suffer because of sins humans commited, nor does it explain why animals which lived before humans were clearly carnivores, or even what herbivores ate if there were no plants - but that's a different topic.

The more the literal interpretation of Gensis is disproved, the more liberties we have to take to try and explain it.





Good point. The biological definiton is that life ...
  1. Is Organic / Carbon-based. Not everything organic is alive, but all living things are organic.
  2. Has four DNA bases: Guanine (G), Adenine (A), Thymine (T) and Cytosine (C). G is aways paired with C and A is always paired with T.
  3. Replicates itself.
These three features are shared by all living things. DNA and reproduction in particular distinguish life from non-life. So why are animals and people considered "life" but plants and insects are not?

The modern scientific definition of life is all those things. God's definition is that life is in the blood. If it doesn't have blood, arguments about life do not apply to Scripture.

We have to take meanings from how the word was used at the time it was written and not how it is used today. This holds for old translation as well; we must use the word as it was used at the time of
translation.

And the ancients were much more knowledgable than you may recognize. Their arguments and theories are still being debated. The Greeks had words that distinguish between plant life and animal life; bios and zoe, respectively. The latter is what refers to the spirit in the NT.
 
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SkyWriting

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You can't disprove one passage from the Bible by using another; that would be cherry-picking. Should we just ignore what the Book of James says? Besides, the rest of the passage readsFor it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.(Ephesians 2:8-10) But if you want to talk about it, best create another thread.

If I get banned for being off-topic, I live in fear then.
You can't disprove one passage from the Bible by using another;
There are two things one can do....rebuke your interpretation of a passage and illustrate the true meaning of one passage, using other passages.

I posted all the references to "saved" and "faith", and they all show that works has no value in redemption. Good works is an expected result from accepting Gods grace.

But if a person accepts God's grace in the final moments before they die, their lack of good works tally is not counted against them. So works do not count. But they are expected. That's what your passage means.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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SkyWriting said:
There are two things one can do....rebuke your interpretation of a passage and illustrate the true meaning of one passage, using other passages.

I posted all the references to "saved" and "faith", and they all show that works has no value in redemption. Good works is an expected result from accepting Gods grace.

But if a person accepts God's grace in the final moments before they die, their lack of good works tally is not counted against them. So works do not count. But they are expected. That's what your passage means.

In which case we agree. I thought you were saying that simply accepting Jesus would automatically get a person into a heaven, and we didn't need to actually do anything.

But back to what you originally wrote:
Skywriting said:
Shernren said:
And can you really imagine yourself or any other creationist standing before God and blaming ... the environment? "Yes, God, I know You didn't create chickens and cows to be eaten. Animal death was never a part of Your good plan for creation. But why did You have to make them so delicious?".
God is aware that we live on an Earth ruled by Satan. We are saved by Grace not of our own efforts.

Because the earth is cursed, it no longer provides enough food for us easily eat just plants. So animals are allowed. Evidently humans are not animals, else that would be permissible as well. "Religion" bias or not.
Not really - many people in countries like India and China are vegetarians, and they eat very well without the need for meat. Indeed for most of history meat was a luxury most people couldn't afford. There's clearly enough plant matter to feed billions of people.
-----------------------------------------

This reminds me of another thread down in the Society Section. One user pointed out we could save a lot of food if we if we ate all the grain ourself, rather than giving it to animals and then eating the animals. I replied by saying this would only work if we became vegans and gave up looking after animals altogether. Vegetarians don't eat meat, but they still need eggs and milk - and we still need to keep and feed animals in order to get them.

In theory it's possible for the world to be vegetarian, but not vegan.
 
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