Why Do Christians Want Creationism Taught In Public Schools?

Nathan David said:

Newsmax=lie.

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That's a little strong isn't it? Slanted and biased yes...err, never mind.

Anyway I did some checking and apparently the story is true. Hamilton ruled that because it was part of a secular excercise in the study of foreign cultures it was not promoting religion and therefore constitutional.

I don't fault Hamilton for her ruling as much as I question the common sense of the school system that ok'ed the curriculum. Sounds a tad overboard to me.

Soc12 said:

I'm a christian and I don't care about those things at all, I just think it's stupid that people think the dollars need to be changed or we can't say "under God" in schools.

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So you "don't care about those things at all" as long as the status quo is maintained, which ohbytheyway just happens to overtly favor monotheism?

Yeah, try again.

placebo2 said:

Why do Christians want creationism taught in public schools?

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(That should read "some Christians".)

In any case, I think it makes them feel more secure if as many others as possible believe the same nonsense that they believe.

Or "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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This enables them to pretend that thy are faithfully serving two masters, nationalism and religion.

Or, "In God We Trust" on currency?

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Where better to affirm our faith than where we place our faith?

What purpose do the above serve? How do the above benefit the country?

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Public piety shows everyone that we are virtuous, and justified in our idolatries, blasphemies, cruelties, greed, thefts and murders.

Serapha said:

Hi there!



In America, Christianity has become "oppressed" by every other religion, denomination, and civil organization that could possibly muster enough news coverage to create a big squeak. Everyone gets rights now EXCEPT the Christian...

It's reverse discrimination.

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Other than those things you list below, would you answer a few questions for me?

1. Have you ever been spit on because you are a Christian?
2. Have you ever had a brick thrown through the window of your car because you are a Christian?
3. Have you ever been screamed at while you were walking to work because you are a Christian?
4. Have you ever had your way to your car blocked by a proselytizing atheist because you are a Christian?
5. Have you ever been hit so hard that both of your eyes were blackened because you are a Christian?

Substitute the word atheist for Christian in all the above questions and my answer would be yes to every single one. Who's "oppressed" here?

Why mandate that Darwinism must be taught and creationism must be shelved?

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It isn't Darwinism, it's called Evolution. And yes, it should be taught in science classes. Creationism isn't science it's theology. Personally, I have no problem with theologies being taught in school...as long as it's in a theology class. In fact, I think that learning about different religions would be a good thing for all of us.

Why hand out condoms and refuse to teach abstinance as an alternative?

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In every sex education class I've attended, I was taught the mechanics of sex, how diseases are transmitted, prevention measures AND that the only sure-fire way NOT to get pregnant or an STD is abstinence. However, abstinence only programs do not work.

Why remove Christian prayer from the schools yet allow muslims to pray?

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Anyone can pray in school. They just can't be lead by staff or students during class time. Nor can a school require a person to pray. In my highschool, there was a 60 second silence in the first class of each day. Each student could use the time for prayer, quiet contemplation or whatever. What is wrong with that?

As for the comment about allowing Muslims to pray...so what? As long as they do so outside of class time. Are you saying it's not ok for them to pray?

Unless your referencing that nonsense that went on in California. Well, I would be strongly opposed to that too. Do you think that forcing someone to pretend that they are a certain religion is something that atheists in general would support?

Why should we remove all religious symbolisms at Christmas and replace them with Santa and the reindeer, after all, it's CHRIST-mas.

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The only religious symbolism I have a problem with is when it's sponsored by a state or federal government. I have no problems with manger scenes otherwise. Some of them are quite pretty.

Christianity and Christian teachings deserve the same amount of time as everyone and everything else gets.


It's been shelved for a long time, and look what's happened to our society.


~serapha~

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I truly do not understand what you are saying in this last bit. Can you not worship in the church of your choice? Aren't you free to teach your children your beliefs? How is Christianity denied time? And what exactly has happened to our society that makes it worse than before?

I am one of many thousands of Christians and non-Christians that favor the inclusion of the theory of "Intelligent Design" as an adjunct to our school curriculum.

"Evolution" from lower to higher taxonomic orders is wrought with scientific holes including...

• The large systematic gaps between major groups in the fossil record.
• The sudden appearance of virtually all phyla in the fossil record.
• The ENORMOUS improbability of life emerging spontaneously from raw chemicals.
• The extreme rarity of beneficial mutations, if they exist at all.
• The total absence of any known mutations that actually add information to the genome of the species.
• The “irreducible complexity” principle in biochemical machines… and many more.

The most recent estimate of the volume of assumed fossil record we have discover to date is around 0.1%. This enormous LACK of evidence prompted noted evolutionist Stephen Gould to state...Instead, what the fossil record DOES show is that essentially all phyla appear suddenly and without ancestors in a geologically instantaneous moment in time called the "Cambrian Explosion", prompting Charles Darwin to write in his book "On the Origin of Species"...Recent findings and studies of early Earth's atmosphere, as well as the codependent and complex nature of life protiens has proven to make synthesis of life from lifeless chemicals impossible, or far beyond improbable.


Our recent understanding of DNA and the replication process also reveals that there is no natural mechanism and no evidence to show that mutations or natural selection has ever added information to a genome. In fact, we only have evidence of life forms becoming extinct, thereby loosing information. The areas within the DNA that we once thought to be filled with "junk" DNA are actually filled with introns and telomeres, which are necessary parts of the DNA, like the spaces, tabs and punctuation found in encyclopedias. Indeed, even the simplest know organisms have enough precisely coded, syntax dependant information to fill a standard volume of a law journal, while human DNA would fill approximately 1100 such volumes.

This precision and functionality, similarity of taxonomic groups SCREAM out "designed", not "evolved". In fact, I believe that there is FAR more scientifically justifiable evidence of design than there is for evolution.

Interestingly, even the leading British atheist, Antony Flew has come to the same conclusion only last week, after more than fifty years of study and debate on the topic.

As a Christian, I would like to associate the "designer" to the God of the Bible, to whom we should be grateful and accountable. As a scientist, I could accept that the designer may have been some other being, with creative skills far beyond our own and possibly on another planet in the universe.

I see no indication that teaching our children to look at ALL the evidence presented to them in this area of study will drive us back into the "dark ages". Instead, it should help them to think more critically in the long run.

Son-cerely,
Nate

Garnet2727 said:

Other than those things you list below, would you answer a few questions for me?

1. Have you ever been spit on because you are a Christian?
2. Have you ever had a brick thrown through the window of your car because you are a Christian?
3. Have you ever been screamed at while you were walking to work because you are a Christian?
4. Have you ever had your way to your car blocked by a proselytizing atheist because you are a Christian?
5. Have you ever been hit so hard that both of your eyes were blackened because you are a Christian?

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Christains are not usually physically assaulted here in the United States, but it happens and it is happening with regularity, even unto death in countries such as Sudan, China, the Phillipines, Iran, India, Afganastan, Pakastan and thoughout Eurasia. Just this week, two women were beaten, one to death, for passing out Bibles in a market in China.

And, yes, I have been spit at, screamed at and assaulted because I was a Christian. BUt I never stopped showing those that were spitting, screaming or assaulting the love of Christ, and even won one over, if not to Christ, then as a friend, and it was worth it.

Son-cerely,
Nate

Serapha said:

Hi there!



In America, Christianity has become "oppressed" by every other religion, denomination, and civil organization that could possibly muster enough news coverage to create a big squeak. Everyone gets rights now EXCEPT the Christian...

It's reverse discrimination.


Why mandate that Darwinism must be taught and creationism must be shelved?

Creationism is a Christian belief, it's religious not scientific.

Why hand out condoms and refuse to teach abstinance as an alternative?

Who says one precludes the other?

Why remove Christian prayer from the schools yet allow muslims to pray?

No one can stop you from praying and never have. What a crock.

Why should we remove all religious symbolisms at Christmas and replace them with Santa and the reindeer, after all, it's CHRIST-mas.

So, when did the Christmas police come to your house and take away your manger?


Christianity and Christian teachings deserve the same amount of time as everyone and everything else gets.

Wrong, this is a secular nation, if you want to preach, do it at church-bible school-sunday school-prayer meetings.


It's been shelved for a long time, and look what's happened to our society.

Yes, we've established civil rights, women's rights, and children's rights. Blacks can vote freely, women can buy birth control and vote, and children are no longer considered property. Yea for us.
~serapha~

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What a list of bogus grievances. Obviously you don't understand discrimination. There are churches on every corner in American towns, every Christian is free to worship where and whenever they wish, or not at all. Christian churches, schools, amusement parks, gold mines and crystal cathedrals operate tax free, unlike the rest of us mortals, Christians can gather anywhere they wish, go to school anywhere they wish, build their own schools, colleges, and other nefarious places where they can ban anyone who isn't like them. Christians are given the same legal protections, rights and priveleges as everyone else. So what are you whining about?

Let me guess, you don't have exclusive privileges anymore because others have stood up for their rights. That's your real complaint, you just aren't that special anymore. Descriminated against, please, go join a group that are descriminated against and then complain about your lot.

Natman said:

Christains are not usually physically assaulted here in the United States, but it happens and it is happening with regularity, even unto death in countries such as Sudan, China, the Phillipines, Iran, India, Afganastan, Pakastan and thoughout Eurasia. Just this week, two women were beaten, one to death, for passing out Bibles in a market in China.

And, yes, I have been spit at, screamed at and assaulted because I was a Christian. BUt I never stopped showing those that were spitting, screaming or assaulting the love of Christ, and even won one over, if not to Christ, then as a friend, and it was worth it.

Son-cerely,
Nate

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Well,when you go to muslim countries and hand out bibles when it's forbidden by law, then you are going to have some problems. When you go into another culture that treats Christians the way Christians have treated indigenous people around the world, you're going to be uncomfortable. The difference is, you chose to go there, you chose to take your risks, the indigenous peoples of the world, they didn't get a choice, you Christians just trashed their culture at will. If you don't like being treated like invading hordes or infidels, don't go there. Stay here where you are soooo mistreated.

placebo2 said:

Why do Christians want creationism taught in public schools? Or "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Or, "In God We Trust" on currency? What purpose do the above serve? How do the above benefit the country?

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More and more information is coming in that Intelligent Design is behind everything. Evolution is now passe.

Besides, Creationism implies accountability for behavior. This is what makes Christian morals the highest of all and makes what immigrants from very poor countries call the United States......paradise.

The large systematic gaps between major groups in the fossil record.

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That is false, there is a massive ammount of fossils in these so called "gaps"

The sudden appearance of virtually all phyla in the fossil record.

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Because of the evolution of photosynthesis, it's pretty obvious.

The ENORMOUS improbability of life emerging spontaneously from raw chemicals.

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It wasn't very spontaneous, it's like throughing eggs in the dryer and saying that the eggs broke is spontaneous.

The extreme rarity of beneficial mutations, if they exist at all.

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Theres a huge ammount of them, mainly children being born without appendixes (not just a few, alot).

The total absence of any known mutations that actually add information to the genome of the species.

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Wrongity : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/ (this also explains your preceding misinformation)

The “irreducible complexity” principle in biochemical machines… and many more.

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Just because the cave system under the
Yucatán is "irreducible complex" doesn't mean nature didn't form it.

Also, the majority of Christians are pro-evoution in education, FYI

Serapha said:

Hi there!



In America, Christianity has become "oppressed" by every other religion, denomination, and civil organization that could possibly muster enough news coverage to create a big squeak. Everyone gets rights now EXCEPT the Christian...

It's reverse discrimination.


Why mandate that Darwinism must be taught and creationism must be shelved?

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It has been said that nothing in Biology makes sense unless under the light of Evolution. Understand that in school you learn things that have facts to back them up. Creationism is a faith, it contradicts facts. It's like teaching Astrology as a fact and putting Astronomy in the background, that's what we like to call regressing educationally.

Why hand out condoms and refuse to teach abstinance as an alternative?

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Bush has assigned $170 million to Abstinence only programs. First off I wouldn't have a problem with this, even though it's been proven that over 70% of kids who pledge for abstinence end up having sex anyway and are ill-equipped, but in a recent study that Waxman commented on 11 of 13 big programs taught nothing but lies. Things like, "Over half of gay teenagers have AIDs." "You can catch AIDs from sweat and tears." "Condoms don't work." I mean what BS is that? When a condom is used correctly, how can you screw up with putting on a condom, it has less than a 3% chance of failing. If you care about kids you'll hand them a condom and teach them about STDs.

Why remove Christian prayer from the schools yet allow muslims to pray?

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The only Christian prayer that was removed from school was the ones that had open prayers. THe government is not allowed to help out religion in any way. People were being forced to have prayer time in public school, that's wrong. Anyway you guys have your moments of silence, quit complaining.

Why should we remove all religious symbolisms at Christmas and replace them with Santa and the reindeer, after all, it's CHRIST-mas.

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X-mas only came around because Christians wanted to compete with the Roman holidays. The only Christian things that come from X-mas are the birth of Jesus, which happened in April. Caroling - Celtic


The Christmas Tree - Roman Saturnalia Festival


Gift-giving and Christmas Lights - Saturnalia


Wreath - Most likely derived from the Olympics


Holly and Ivy - From a Norse and Celtic myth


Mistletoe - Froma Norse myth


St. Nicholas - A nice guy from Myna, Turkey


Sinter Klass (Santa Claus) - Dutch version of St. Nicholas


Yule Log - Burned at Yule in honor of Thor

As you can see, alot of things about X-mas come from other regions and religions. The government isn't suppose to help religion in any way so not allowing the religious portions of X-mas in any government place is a nice thing for them to do. They could easilly say, screw that. If you wanna set up a thing to celebrate the birth of Jesus do it in your home, otherwise, stick to Satan giving presents to the good kids.

Christianity and Christian teachings deserve the same amount of time as everyone and everything else gets.


It's been shelved for a long time, and look what's happened to our society.

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You know, I could easilly point out the Crusades, Vlad the Impaler was a catholic, the Churches in the Dark Ages had more torture chambers than any king. The point is America was founded on freedom of religious choice or freedom for lack of. They don't promote any religion, that's your decision.

Stinker said:

More and more information is coming in that Intelligent Design is behind everything. Evolution is now passe.

Besides, Creationism implies accountability for behavior. This is what makes Christian morals the highest of all and makes what immigrants from very poor countries call the United States......paradise.

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You're being sarcastic...AREN'T YOU?

Stinker said:

More and more information is coming in that Intelligent Design is behind everything. Evolution is now passe.

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Er... have you bothered to inform the biological sciences at large of this?

Last time I spoke with a biologist... oh, three days ago, evolution was still the most reasonable explanation...

Natman said:

I am one of many thousands of Christians and non-Christians that favor the inclusion of the theory of "Intelligent Design" as an adjunct to our school curriculum.

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And as soon as you guys come up with such a theory, you might get your wish.

"Evolution" from lower to higher taxonomic orders is wrought with scientific holes including...


The large systematic gaps between major groups in the fossil record.

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False. There are a surprising number of fossils that have features from different families, orders, classes, even phyla.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

There are even modern organisms, like the monotremes, that have cross-class features.

The sudden appearance of virtually all phyla in the fossil record.

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Ah, the Cambrian Explosion mythos. The Cambrian fossils only represent a few modern animal phyla, and none of the plant, fungus and protist/bacteria groups. Furthermore, the "sudden appearance" took at least 5 million years and was characterized by the first appearance of hard body parts which fossilize much easier.

The ENORMOUS improbability of life emerging spontaneously from raw chemicals.

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Only surpassed by the enormous misunderstandings that inevitably accompany lay-discussions of abiogenesis. Which, by the way, are completely irrelevant to evolution.

The extreme rarity of beneficial mutations, if they exist at all.

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Feh.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html

The total absence of any known mutations that actually add information to the genome of the species.

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Double-feh.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html

The “irreducible complexity” principle in biochemical machines… and many more.

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All examples of which having been thus far refuted.

The most recent estimate of the volume of assumed fossil record we have discover to date is around 0.1%.

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Source, please?

This enormous LACK of evidence prompted noted evolutionist Stephen Gould to state...

"the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology - we fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favoured account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study."​

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Instead, what the fossil record DOES show is that essentially all phyla appear suddenly and without ancestors in a geologically instantaneous moment in time called the "Cambrian Explosion", prompting Charles Darwin to write in his book "On the Origin of Species"...

"The case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained."​

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"Geologically instantaneous" is a very cute, and disingenuous, way to say "at least 5 million years."

As for the Darwin wing of the quote mine: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part2.html

Recent findings and studies of early Earth's atmosphere, as well as the codependent and complex nature of life protiens has proven to make synthesis of life from lifeless chemicals impossible, or far beyond improbable.

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Findings and studies which you can no doubt present us with, yes?

Our recent understanding of DNA and the replication process also reveals that there is no natural mechanism and no evidence to show that mutations or natural selection has ever added information to a genome. In fact, we only have evidence of life forms becoming extinct, thereby loosing information.

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Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The areas within the DNA that we once thought to be filled with "junk" DNA are actually filled with introns and telomeres, which are necessary parts of the DNA, like the spaces, tabs and punctuation found in encyclopedias. Indeed, even the simplest know organisms have enough precisely coded, syntax dependant information to fill a standard volume of a law journal, while human DNA would fill approximately 1100 such volumes.

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Some of the "junk DNA" performs regulatory functions. Most of it is still poorly-understood. The classic example of genomic excess is the onion, which has something like 10 times the number of base pairs as does the human genome.

This precision and functionality, similarity of taxonomic groups SCREAM out "designed", not "evolved".

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Wow, hyperbole and caps. I'm sold.

In fact, I believe that there is FAR more scientifically justifiable evidence of design than there is for evolution.

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'Tis a shame that actual scientists do not agree.

Interestingly, even the leading British atheist, Antony Flew has come to the same conclusion only last week, after more than fifty years of study and debate on the topic.

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Interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, you don't seem to be up on the whole story behind the Flew article.

In any case, "leading... atheist" is a chuckle-worthy comment.

I see no indication that teaching our children to look at ALL the evidence presented to them in this area of study will drive us back into the "dark ages". Instead, it should help them to think more critically in the long run.

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No problem, then. We are presenting them with all the scientific evidence for intelligent design/creationism - none.

Do some actual science and that might change.

Natman said:

Christains are not usually physically assaulted here in the United States, but it happens and it is happening with regularity, even unto death in countries such as Sudan, China, the Phillipines, Iran, India, Afganastan, Pakastan and thoughout Eurasia. Just this week, two women were beaten, one to death, for passing out Bibles in a market in China.

And, yes, I have been spit at, screamed at and assaulted because I was a Christian. BUt I never stopped showing those that were spitting, screaming or assaulting the love of Christ, and even won one over, if not to Christ, then as a friend, and it was worth it.

Son-cerely,
Nate

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Hiya Nate. The purpose of my list was to respond to the claim of Christian persecution here in the US. I know that atrocities are committed all over the world in the name of religion. Nor do I doubt that you have been assaulted etc. The point I was trying to make...and apparently badly...is that isn't just Christian. On my list, all except one thing has happened to me since I moved to Alabama in April. (The smack incident occured in college courtesy of one of Brother Jed's followers.) I have NEVER in my life felt unsafe before simply because I don't believe in God. Now understand, I don't go around talking about my lack of belief. I really discuss beliefs on this board and a couple of others and VERY rarely in the "real" world. But here, God is shoved in one's face with regularity. People at work found out that I'm an atheist because I kept (politely) refusing invitations to church. Finally, someone said to me, "What are you an atheist or something?" I replied, "Yes, as a matter of fact I am." All I shall say is that opened the flood gates.

Where I live now, being an atheist simply isn't safe. That seems to me to be more persecution than preventing a teacher from leading a class in prayer during class.

And yes...I'm doing my best to get out of Alabama and move back to Michigan where it seems that the Christians there are more sane and a lot less violent.

searchingforanswers1 said:

If fundamentalist christians had total control what would america be like?

2. Christian only mandated prayer in every school.

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2. Fundamentalist Bible study in school.

5. Maybe no birth control.

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Almost certainly no birth control and most certainly only married couples would have access to contraceptives.

6. No genetic research.

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This is the only one I consider to be an exaguration, certainly no fetal stem cell research, but there is other genetic research they would allow.

placebo2 said:

Pretending for a minute that you are correct that "Christian morals are the highest of all" could you answer the following:
(1) Are Christians more law-abiding than non-Christians?
(2) How do Christian divorce rates compare with non-Christians?
(3) How about Christian child abuse rates ... ?
(4) Did this high moral standard of Christians just kick in recently, or has it existed for the last 2000 years?
(5) Were the Crusades moral? The Inquisition? The witch burnings? And on, and on?
That should be enough to get you started.

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Ah, but a true Scotsman ....

I truly wish I could understand why some Christians think that a religious concept belongs in a science class....4 pages and I am not enlightened on that matter, although I've seen some of the same hyperbole that is spouted everytime Creationism vs. Evolution comes up....