Why do Charismatics die?

[hraedisc]

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

 

[Trish1947]

The Sciptures say that it is appointed for every man to die, then the judgement. However, it is written nowhere that it is appointed that we have to be sick or remain sick. Everyone has a day set by God to die. Do we have to be sick to die? Probably not. But yes Charismatics certainly do die. But why not be healthy according to the word of God up unto that day?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

This is actually a straw man argument.
First off, this is not as much Charismatic teaching as it is WOF teaching.
What is taught is that it is the will of God that we live a measured length of time with health. I know of no-one who teaches that you do not grow old and die.

Psalms 90:10 KJV
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


It is always the will of God for His children live healthy to a ripe old age and die satisfied with their life.

Psalms 91:16 KJV
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Proverbs 3:1-2 KJV
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.


Ephesians 6:1-3 KJV
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


Proverbs 9:10-11 KJV
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.


3 John 1:2 KJV
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.


Peace
Didy

 

[Jim B]

It is always the will of God for His children live healthy to a ripe old age and die satisfied with their life.

Always, Didy?

Was it in God’s will that Paul left Trophimus at Miletum sick (2 Tim. 4.20)?

Why couldn’t Paul or the apostles heal Timothy’s stomach condition? Instead, Paul wrote, “Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses” (1 Timothy 5.23).

If healing works, as I was always taught, like a formula where you simply quote the appropriate scriptures and believe the right doctrine (i.e., “It is always the will of God for His children live healthy to a ripe old age and die satisfied with their life”) then why aren’t we all well all the time? Why would men who followed the greatest Christian example we have (other than Jesus) be left behind by him because of sickness and the another be prescribed “a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”

How could Timothy, the protégé of the Great Apostle himself have frequent illnesses if it is always God’s will for His children to be well?

Even Christ Himself said, “I was sick and you visited Me not” and when his disciples asked, “When did we see you sick and go to visit you?” Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.” (Matt 25.45).

My WOF friends say that, of course, we visit them in order to heal them but the context does not bear this out. It is simply talking about visiting the sick and helpless. We don’t visit prisoners at the County Jail to spring them, either.

Year’s ago I sat down and re-thunk all I had been taught by Pentecostals, Charismatics, and WOFers and asked the Lord to help me understand things from His perspective and not from the P/C/W teachers point of view. The journey remains difficult because I loved some of the itchy-ear teachings of Hagin via Kenyon and others, not to mention my Pentecostal “healing in the atonement” views, but I had to admit, those teachings looked better on paper than they actually worked in real life. To make a long story short, my journey brought me out of the P/C/W camp and set me somewhere between them and, say, evangelicals.

Today I believe God heals, but not always and not because of us. Healing doesn’t come at our command. It is not the end product of a faith formula. Everything is subject to the will of God. Period. And the old cop-out, "Well, it is always God's will to heal," just doesn't cut it for me like it used to. Sometimes it is in His will that we are sick, despite P/C/W claims to the contrary, or else we can only explain Trophimus and Timothy’s illnesses as failures of the Apostle's faith.

Furthermore, although I will expect the usual arguements to the contrary, I think there is good evidence that Paul's thorn in the flesh may have been a phsyical infirmity. There is also evidence from his personal remarks in his epistles that the Apostle had chronic (and unhealed) failing vision.

Following the WOF doctrine that God is ALWAYS obligated to heal when we get the formula right takes healing out of God’s hands (and will) and places it in our’s. It can also produce hypocrisy in its strongest proponents. Back in the 80s one of the leading WOF teachers (name withheld to protect the guilty) was admitted to Oral Robert’s City of Faith hospital in Tulsa for surgery under an assumed name. His surgery was kept a big secret because it conflicted with his WOF teaching, of which he was a champion, that God always heals all the time if you just get all your ducks in a row. He could not have ever justified his admittance into a hospital and remained true to his errant doctrine and so elected to deceive his supporters by keeping the truth a secret. If it was not a lie (which, of course, it was), at the very least it was a lack of integrity. I was privy to this information only because of my connections with a televangelist colleague on whose board I served at the time.

Today, when I am sick, I simply say, I am sick. I pray, request prayer ... and go the doctor and take my meds (or, preferrably, a little wine for the stomach's sake ). All of that is part of God's provision for our healing. Not just the prayer part.

Jim
\o/

 

[Svt4Him]

Furthermore, although I will expect the usual arguements to the contrary, I think there is good evidence that Paul's thorn in the flesh may have been a phsyical infirmity. There is also evidence from his personal remarks in his epistles that the Apostle had chronic (and unhealed) failing vision

Oh, don't discredit the arguments like that. I expected this usual response any time healing is talked about. There is no evidence from his remarks, and a thorn in the flesh is an idiom, and is used elsewhere in the Bible. Large writing is not evidence, nor is it chronic.

Now what does the Bible say about it?

 

[Jim B]

Oh, don't discredit the arguments like that. I expected this usual response any time healing is talked about. There is no evidence from his remarks, and a thorn in the flesh is an idiom, and is used elsewhere in the Bible. Large writing is not evidence, nor is it chronic.

Now what does the Bible say about it?

There you go judging my motives again, S. Sigh. But, FYI. this is not an “usual response” or an “idiom.” This is what I believe. I believed it even when I swallowed all the other WOF teachings. To me, it’s simply obvious. And remember, I asked questions, too?

My unanswered questions:

1. Why, if healing is just a matter of saying/doing the right faith stuff, did Paul leave Trophimus at Miletum sick? Why didn't he heal him?

2. And why did Timothy, the Apostle’s protégé, have "frequent illnesses" for which Paul prescribed wine instead of laying on of hands and/or speaking things that are not as though they are, etc.​

As for Paul’s poor eyesight – to me it is the best explanation for the thorn in the flesh. I have always believed this, even when I swallowed (to use your language) all the other “usual” WOF “idioms.”

Easton’s Bible Dictionary offers this explanation: “With a great amount of probability, it has been alleged that his malady was defect of sight, consequent on the dazzling light which shone around him at his conversion, acute opthalmia. This would account for the statements in Galatians 4:14; 2Co. 10:10; also Acts 23:5, and for his generally making use of the help of an amanuensis (Compare Romans 16:22, etc.).”

Possibly, as Easton suggests, it all stemmed from the loss of his eyesight the day he was saved. Or maybe it was congenital. But Paul suffered from some problem with his vision that would cause him to say such things as, beginning with the verse you are so dismissive of:

Galatians 6.11

“See what big letters I make when I write to you with my own hand.” NLT
“See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!” NIV
“Look at the big letters I'm using as I write to you with my own hand!” NIRV
“You can see what big letters I make when I write with my own hand.” CEV​

A.T. Roberston, perhaps the premiere Biblical linguist of his day and who has no axe to grind with anyone much less WOFers, interprets this verse like this:

With how large letters (phlikoiß grammasin). Paul now takes the pen from the amanuensis (cf. Romans 16:22) and writes the rest of the Epistle (verses Romans 11-18) himself instead of the mere farewell greeting (2 Thessalonians 3:17; 1 Corinthians 16:21; Colossians 4:18). But what does he mean by "with how large letters"? Certainly not "how large a letter." It has been suggested that he employed large letters because of defective eyesight or because he could only write ill-formed letters because of his poor handwriting (like the print letters of children) or because he wished to call particular attention to this closing paragraph by placarding it in big letters.​

Could poor eyesight have been the cause of Paul’s inability to recognize the high priest in Acts 23.5? Seems a likely explanation to me.

Galatians 4.14-15

“Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.”​

Imagine that, Paul was sick!! So sick, in fact, he worried about being a burden on the Galatian church.

Jamieson, Fausett, Brown who predate WOF by more than a century (therefore, no axe to grind) comment on this passage like this:
“ye would have plucked out your own eyes”-- Conybeare and Howson think that this particular form of proverb was used with reference to a weakness in Paul's eyes, connected with a nervous frame, perhaps affected by the brightness of the vision described…

A.T. Robertson thinks poor eyesight obvious enough problem in these two verses as to offer a simple rhetorical question: “Did Paul not have at this time serious eye trouble?”

You can dismiss these if you choose but if you do so only because they do not fit your doctrine of faith it may not be their views that are wrong.

Anyhow, it’s something that has convinced me.

Jim
\o/

 

[TwistrAndy]

I'm not going to put anyone down, but I always believed that God works on His own time, and in His own mysterious ways. Sickness is a discouragement tactic used by the devil to try to bring us down. I remember that God will always come through no matter what. And if he doesn't heal someone, then maybe it's a test of faith from God to see just how faithful you are. If someone is not healed, then I believe that God's got a perfectly good reason for it, and something good will come out of it.

 

[Andrew]

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

In the first place, not all charismatics believe in healing being part of the redemptive work of Christ.

In the second place, no charismatic has ever said that we won't die. I mean, if Jesus doesnt come back anytime soon, 100 years from now, none of us here wld be around.

Charismatics (those who believe in healing) simply believe that it is God's will for his children to live long, good and healthy lives (With long life I will satisfy you and show you my salvation).

As such, it wld mean that they know how to use faith and the Word to keep sickness and premature death at bay, until they have fought the good fight, finished the race, and DECIDE THEN that its time to go home, ie they make the decision to pass on.

In Thessalonians, in speaking of the rapture, the Word says that there will be those "who are alive AND REMAIN". Yes, there will be a rapture generation who will be able to REMAIN on earth -- ie put off sickness and death for as long as possible, until the rapture.

I am one of them, anyone care to join me?

 

[Andrew]

To make a long story short, my journey brought me out of the P/C/W camp and set me somewhere between them and, say, evangelicals.

er, if you're not really charismatic, why are you debating here?

 

[Jim B]

er, if you're not really charismatic, why are you debating here?

Because I am Vineyard they let me in. Sorry!

Does that present a problem for you?

But we have been 'round this mountain before. Most people consider me a Charismatic because of my affiliation and beliefs - I just don't like the label.

Do I have to?

\o/

 

[Andrew]

Well JimB

It's just that if there are people who aren't really charismatics here wanting to debate charismatic beliefs, then there's just going to be a lot of arguing.

Like you said, been round the same mountain b4. And it will keep happening, simply becos you will continue to come in from time to time to challenge charismatic beliefs here.

It's like I'm not really Catholic, having "left the RC camp", and I go to the RC forum and start questioning their beliefs there. And when they ask me if I'm RC, I simply start to claim that I'm RC to stay there and make myself heard.

It is just not fair and breaking the rules. I believe the mods here just "close one eye" for your sake. (It wld be good if the forum rules here cld be amended such that what denom one belongs too is best judged by what one preaches or comes against, and not by one's mere claim.)

As in your own words you have admitted that you are out of the Charismatic camp. And you are glad that you are out of it. So I dont see how you can still be charismatic, let alone claim to be one.

my journey brought me out of the P/C/W camp and set me somewhere between them and, say, evangelicals.

 

[Jim B]

Well JimB

It's just that if there are people who aren't really charismatics here wanting to debate charismatic beliefs, then there's just going to be a lot of arguing.

Like you said, been round the same mountain b4. And it will keep happening, simply becos you will continue to come in from time to time to challenge charismatic beliefs here.

It's like I'm not really Catholic, having "left the RC camp", and I go to the RC forum and start questioning their beliefs there. And when they ask me if I'm RC, I simply start to claim that I'm RC to stay there and make myself heard.

It is just not fair and breaking the rules. I believe the mods here just "close one eye" for your sake. (It wld be good if the forum rules here cld be amended such that what denom one belongs too is best judged by what one preaches or comes against, and not by one's mere claim.)

As in your own words you have admitted that you are out of the Charismatic camp. And you are glad that you are out of it. So I dont see how you can still be charismatic, let alone claim to be one.

What do you mean "really charismatic?" Are you "really charismatic," 100% kneejerk, no-questions-asked?

Hey A., I do not find a consensus of “Charismatic” beliefs in this forum. There is a wide variety of beliefs here –WOFers and non-WOFers, Benny Hinn followers and Benny Hinn opposers, Faith is this and Faith is that advocates, etc.etc.etc.

The only common denominator in this forum is that God works in the present through giftings of the Holy Spirit … all of them. I believe that. But I do not want to be labeled “Charismatic” or “Pentecostal” or WOF” because each of these labels carries stereotypes that would link me to a lot of beliefs and practices I oppose. The moment I call myself any those titles I am immediately misunderstood by others who draw conclusions about me that I would rather not represent.

I would suggest we drop the P/C/W labels altogether. If we would, which I am willing to do, we would immediately gain the ear of many who will not hear us simply because we so proudly wear our titles.

Now, Andrew, are you suggesting that I have to believe like you to be on this forum or that we all have to believe alike to participate? If so, this forum is not for me (and for many others who post here).

And, yes, I may challenge your beliefs sometimes because I come to different conclusions than you or even a majority of those who frequent this forum (and, sorry, I just can’t keep my mouth shut most of the time ). But am I not allowed to say what I believe? Or must I be a company-man and only say what is religiously correct? And who is the arbiter? You? If so, this forum is not for me.

But what I have found here are some great people (like you) with different views that challenge me. Some have even agreed with me!!! And I am not afraid to be challenged. In fact, I welcome it. And that is why I hang out here. I cannot learn my having erroneous beliefs constantly reinforced. If I am not challenged I will not grow.

I am not always right in what I believe, A., but I do offer scripture in support of my views. And I have just as much a right as you – before God and man – to voice my beliefs … even when they challenge yours.

I appreciate your posts, even when I don't agree. When I don't - like now! - I will tell you and I will tell you why. I hope you will do the same for me and will not censor, or have others censure, me because I do not agree with you.

\o/

 

[Carlos Vigil]

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

Reason #1; it is appointed unto allmen to die once , and after death face the judgement.

Reason #2; Charismatics (like everybode else)can suffer the death of the spirit by wandering AWAY FROM THE NEW COVENANT (apostacy),(away from the BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT) Matt. 26:28 & Heb. 10:29.
Love rejoices with the Truth.
Carlos

 

[Trish1947]

There are alot of different opinions about healing. really from A to Z. But I think what I believe about the word, is a safe haven to to put my trust in.

Don't we have to come to the throne room of grace in full assurance what the word says is true?

I think about Jesus ministry, those that got healed are those that basicly ran after him, crying out, tearing roofs off houses, a roman soldier taking time off from his duties to go seek him out for his servant. They all saw what he was capable of doing, and desired to do. So why is it different in our time. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever!!

 

[razzelflabben]

This is actually a straw man argument.
First off, this is not as much Charismatic teaching as it is WOF teaching.
What is taught is that it is the will of God that we live a measured length of time with health. I know of no-one who teaches that you do not grow old and die.

Psalms 90:10 KJV
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


It is always the will of God for His children live healthy to a ripe old age and die satisfied with their life.

Psalms 91:16 KJV
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Proverbs 3:1-2 KJV
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.


Ephesians 6:1-3 KJV
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


Proverbs 9:10-11 KJV
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.


3 John 1:2 KJV
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.


Peace
Didy

Might as well throw my two cents worth in here. Only one of these scriptures talks about health. in fact, my grandmother has been sick most of her life and she is currently 91 years old. The verse you refer to that talks about health is not a scripture taught by God but rather the opening of a letter by a man, similar to me saying, I hope this finds you well. The Eph. 6 reference could be interpreted to mean health but when the reference is cross referenced with other translations, we get a picture of general well being not specific health issues. Sorry, but from a biblical standpoint, you need to do better than these verses.

 

[razzelflabben]

In the first place, not all charismatics believe in healing being part of the redemptive work of Christ.

In the second place, no charismatic has ever said that we won't die. I mean, if Jesus doesnt come back anytime soon, 100 years from now, none of us here wld be around.

Charismatics (those who believe in healing) simply believe that it is God's will for his children to live long, good and healthy lives (With long life I will satisfy you and show you my salvation).

As such, it wld mean that they know how to use faith and the Word to keep sickness and premature death at bay, until they have fought the good fight, finished the race, and DECIDE THEN that its time to go home, ie they make the decision to pass on.

In Thessalonians, in speaking of the rapture, the Word says that there will be those "who are alive AND REMAIN". Yes, there will be a rapture generation who will be able to REMAIN on earth -- ie put off sickness and death for as long as possible, until the rapture.

I am one of them, anyone care to join me?

How then does this line up with the teaching that God has an appointed time for each to die? as posted earlier.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well JimB

It's just that if there are people who aren't really charismatics here wanting to debate charismatic beliefs, then there's just going to be a lot of arguing.

Like you said, been round the same mountain b4. And it will keep happening, simply becos you will continue to come in from time to time to challenge charismatic beliefs here.

It's like I'm not really Catholic, having "left the RC camp", and I go to the RC forum and start questioning their beliefs there. And when they ask me if I'm RC, I simply start to claim that I'm RC to stay there and make myself heard.

It is just not fair and breaking the rules. I believe the mods here just "close one eye" for your sake. (It wld be good if the forum rules here cld be amended such that what denom one belongs too is best judged by what one preaches or comes against, and not by one's mere claim.)

As in your own words you have admitted that you are out of the Charismatic camp. And you are glad that you are out of it. So I dont see how you can still be charismatic, let alone claim to be one.

I don't think I have a label, but I would like to learn more about what people believe and about what God teaches, does that mean that I should leave as well. I like talking to the charismatics because they claim to follow scripture, they claim to believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, both things often neglected in the mainstream churches. I get into problems here when I look at the scirptures presented to support a teaching and they don't line up. So I ask more questions and this goes on until everyone is silent. So are you saying that your teachings are so weak that they cannot be discussed in light of the totality of scripture? Or just what are you saying please. I do not wish to break any rule as I seek knowledge and understanding. I can to the forum as an aid in this quest.

 

[B-Real]

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in me. In my FATHER'S house are many mansion's: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to preparema place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am , there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. These are the words of Jesus Christ as writing in the Holy Bible. Jesus died to live and we must also die to live, but only if we believe that this is so. We are a product of our beliefs for our beliefs are the very roots that we are planted in. John12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. John12:26 If any man serve me, let hm follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be; if any man erve me, him will my Father honour. I will say nothing against another man's faith for who he serve that is his God. A man should have the right as God has given every man the choice to choice whom they will serve.Live Love Laugh Enjoy God's good earth. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..Nothing to fear in dying and the only thing to fear in living is fear itself!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

*MOD here *

Charasmatic for the sake of this forum is "believing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophesy, and healing is still active and for today." So, while some may not put themselves under the label "Charasmatic", if they believe the above statement they are allowed to debate here. However, for those who are against those things as for today, they are allowed to ask questions but not debate.

I hope this will clear up all questions. NO more arguing over it please. Thank you.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Might as well throw my two cents worth in here. Only one of these scriptures talks about health. in fact, my grandmother has been sick most of her life and she is currently 91 years old. The verse you refer to that talks about health is not a scripture taught by God but rather the opening of a letter by a man, similar to me saying, I hope this finds you well. The Eph. 6 reference could be interpreted to mean health but when the reference is cross referenced with other translations, we get a picture of general well being not specific health issues. Sorry, but from a biblical standpoint, you need to do better than these verses.

Thanks for the pennies from heaven!

The reason the scriptures I gave had more to do with long life than health is because the OP asked:

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

My post responded to that question.
Thanks!
Dids