Why do Charismatics die?

crystalpc said:

Pharisee's never questioned Jesus about healing, their problem was when he said your sins are forgiven.

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Yes they did. They criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath. They accused Him of using satan's power to heal.

Trish1947 said:

So what would you suggest we give up, so I don't have to worry about what people think about what I believe. If we're identified as a cult, because of what we know in our hearts as the truth. Your asking us to settle with the world, settle with peoples opinions, settle with that one that thinks we're a cult. Um...
I wonder if Jesus thought about settleing when they reviled Him?

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You’re missing the point and being way too sensitive and defensive, Trish. No one’s picking on you.

However, having read your posts, you do seem to work under the assumption that what you believe is just the way things are and anyone who disagrees with your beliefs disagrees with you personally. Does it have to always be “Us vs. Them”? Can’t we talk about issues without taking everything as a personal attack? And can’t we stop judging others’ motives?

For the record, although your accusations do not deserve an answer, I will say that ...
It is a lot easier to talk to you when you are not jumping to conclusions and making accusations.

Sigh!
\o/

didaskalos said:

My VERY humble opinion... as a verified and confirmed cultist.

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Didy, Did you read that list carefull? Do you really not see anything wrong in these things?

Trouble is, every prophet, apostle, pastor, and believer is condemned by this sort of list. Even Jesus. It only leads to divisiveness and doubt in one's self and faith.

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How can you suggest that Jesus was guilty of any of these things.

Please take a look at the list again. Do you see any merit in even one of these points that you'd really want to defend and stand behind? Do you think there are points that anyone should defend?

Who would not be condemned by these? At what point are we going to get beyond all this introspection and self analysis and get on with the issues at hand? People who endlessly ponder these sorts of things end up driving themselves crazy!

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It's not about navel gazing, it's about examining our own hearts. If our hearts condemn us, we need to repent and ask the Lord to change our hearts.

Jim B said:

You’re missing the point and being way too sensitive and defensive, Trish. No one’s picking on you.

However, having read your posts, you do seem to work under the assumption that what you believe is just the way things are and anyone who disagrees with your beliefs disagrees with you personally. Does it have to always be “Us vs. Them”? Can’t we talk about issues without taking everything as a personal attack? And can’t we stop judging others’ motives?



For the record, although your accusations do not deserve an answer, I will say that ...

I am not concerned about what people think about you however what people think about us does effect our influence with them.

No one ever said you were the member of a cult.
No one asked you to “settle with the world.”
No one wants you to settle with “people’s opinions.”
And certainly no one sees you as Jesus’s equal.
​

It is a lot easier to talk to you when you are not jumping to conclusions and making accusations.


Sigh!
\o/

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All I was going by was your post to Didi

Rather than identifying with these rather nefarious traits, wouldn’t it be better to try to rid them from our life? I see some of them in me and I do not find them that appealing.

ok. sorry if I misunderstood you. So what nefarious traits are you referring to then? If we both have them.

Trish1947 said:

ok. sorry if I misunderstood you. So what nefarious traits are you referring to then? If we both have them.

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Apology accepted. Please understand, I really do love you, Trish, even though we may disagree about some fundamental issues.

Furthermore, I love Didy, too, and really enjoy his graciousness and always value what he says. That does not always mean we agree, but I feel we do respect one another's views even when we disagree.

It's not that you "both" have them -- We ALL have them. It seems to be human nature. But the list is in post #86.

Jim
\o/

It's not that you "both" have them -- We ALL have them. It seems to be human nature. But the list is in post #86.

Jim
\o/

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I read the post. However, Jim, what you look at as defects in us all, may only be levels of belief.

didaskalos said:

A few years ago some secular agency came out with a similar list. Everyone ran around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to make sure they were not doing anything that someone might consrue as cultish. Trouble is, every prophet, apostle, pastor, and believer is condemned by this sort of list. Even Jesus. It only leads to divisiveness and doubt in one's self and faith. Who would not be condemned by these? At what point are we going to get beyond all this introspection and self analysis and get on with the issues at hand? People who endlessly ponder these sorts of things end up driving themselves crazy! We are all cult members. What else is new? When are we going to begin to have faith not only in God but in the work that He has begun in us? God is not a monster and we are not the children of a monster. If the world wants to peg us as cultists... then so be it. That is our cross. Do we have to do it to ourselves?

My VERY humble opinion... as a verified and confirmed cultist.




[/indent]

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How sad your view. I do not see these same qualities in the scriptural accounts of Jesus life and teachings, in addition, I know several people who do not fall into these guidelines. I know some as well who do and I know some who have even given over to cults. Your assumtion that all fall into these characteristics as a very disturbing picture of Christ and human nature as a whole.

Rather than identifying with these rather nefarious traits, wouldn’t it be better to try to rid them from our life? I see some of them in me and I do not find them that appealing.

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Jim,

I hope the weather is as nice where you are as it is here.

The ideas are good and I agree folks should be aware of these sorts of issues. How seriously? I can see a young believer getting himself in trouble it he took this too seriously. Think about each of them and, as you said, we will see much of this in ourselves. I know I do. Why do I not go nuts and start to dissect myself?

Mainly because I do not necessarily see all of these traits as nefarious… and it would seem that some are downright unavoidable. Some of them are realties of existence to which we are all subject. Why beat ourselves up for being what we are?



1. Exclusiveness of distinctive doctrines which are held to be superior to others? beliefs.

I am not sure what you are saying here? Are we saying that all teachings are equal in weight and should be considered valid ... and to assign greater importance to one teaching over another is a cultic activity? I guess I would need some expansion here.



2. Denounce those who object to their beliefs.

Are we saying that if I disagree with someone's insistence that God puts sickness on people, and let them know about my disagreement.... then for them to call me a false teacher would make them a cultist? It is correct to say we should go light on the “denunciations” as well as the “constant objecting.” Is not objecting to a matter of faith just another form of denunciation?

But is this not just another trait of all human interaction. Of course people disagree. That is a fact of human existence that we all are subject to. I am not sure how far we are taking the "denounce" issue... but I get denounced all the time. I do not always consider my detractors as cultists. They may be wrong.. but they are entitled to call me an idiot if they want. That is freedom of speech. I do not think I can fairly respond to their denunciations with a label of "cultist"



3. Adopt an ?Us vs. Them? mentality.

The Us vs Them principle is something that is seen in all creation and in all human endeavors. I do not think we can simply discount this out of hand and label ( ) those who participate in the arena of life as cultists. Does not the presentation of this list have the effect of creating an "us and them" mentality? It allows US to turn THEM into cultists. I suppose with this post, I have been relegated into the "them".



4. Stress, and are well-versed in, pet proof texts (i.e., use the Bible mainly to support beliefs).

Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and all the rest used "proof texts". It is the main method of teaching the NT. There is room for discussion for teaching and methods of study. I suppose I am very well versed in my personal pet doctrines listed in Heb 6 12-3. I have been teaching them for years. I hope I am not a cultist because I have favorites. What? We are not supposed to have favorite teachings and scriptures? How can it be said that we are cultists because we use the Bible to support our beliefs??? Here we are cultists if we "use the Bible to mainly support our beliefs", but in point #8 we are cultists if we use extra biblical authority. That is why these sorts of lists are dangerous. Catch 22. You are a cultist if you do and you are a cultist if you do not. Basically a very scary mindset to fall into. It has the makings of a witch-hunt. Everybody can be found guilty depending on who it is sitting in the judges robes. Is it a veiled attempt at control and condemnation?



5. Teach canned/programmed responses to objections to their beliefs.

Even canned responses are real. They were not canned when they were developed and just they are used and reused because they are good. If they were not good they would not be on the shelf. What teaching does anyone reading this believe that does not have a "canned" or "programmed" presentation? All my teachings are programmed and canned. I would not be a good teacher if I did not prepare and become well versed in these things. None of us would. Am I therefore a cultist because I have answers to objects to my faith? Would we cease to be cultists if we just winged it and made up stuff as went go along?



6. See Christianity as works-based (i.e., ego-centric), where God’s approval or blessing depends on our actions or beliefs.

Interesting. Of course I have always taught that God is finished with His works. It is up to us now to touch the hem of His garment. I will think on this one. Thanks for bringing it up!



7. Venerate heroes and follow compelling personalities.

Again, this is a solid fact of human existence. We need role models and success stories to anchor us in this life. Hebrews 11 is a rehearsing of heroes. I personally like the spies who went into the Promised Land and came back with the good report..."we are well able to take it..." Fantastic. Jesus is my hero! What a man he was! Such courage, compassion and resolve! Paul rules too. We named our youngest son Jonathon Paul after my NT and OT favorites. I think E.W. Kenyon was the greatest modern day writer. Kenneth Hagin was a prophet of God who deserved respect and I am not ashamed to say he has been a role model for me for many years. Seriously, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having heroes and role models. It is a natural thing all people do. It is a part of human nature and no one is a cultist simply because they have heroes. Thank God for heroes. They remind us what we can accomplish if we remain faithful and have courage. I do not mean worship them or idolize them. I mean have a healthy respect and honor for those who have achieved in life. Lord help us if we become so insecure in our persons that we cannot acknowledge that God has enabled men to do great things. Praise God for the courage, virtue, the vision it takes to aspire to great heights. It inspires us all to fight on.



8. Overly-value extra-biblical authority (prophecies, revelations, visions, etc.)

I agree. That is why I left the "prophetic" movement back in the mid 90s. To much control, commanding, and condemnation by wide-eyed people stuck in the OT model. Opps did I just denounce?



9. Demand loyalty to peculiar beliefs and fellowship.

Is loyalty to one's church, pastor, fellowship a bad thing? Of course we are loyal to beliefs and fellowship. What? Is betrayal a good thing? Is not loyalty in relationships something that is “demanded” by definition? I am loyal to my parents, my wife, my children… not because they demand it but because of the nature of the relationship. I am loyal to my friends and members of my fellowship basically because loyalty is a function that is inherent in all relationships. Even when they are wrong I do not reject them and cast them from my heart and mind. I thank God they do not do this to me. Lord knows I have done things that would justify my being rejected. But love by nature generates loyalty. Love believes all things. Loyalty springs from Love. Betrayal and rejection spring from suspicion and fear. Does a mindset of questioning and doubting each other (and even ourselves) come from love or does it come from fear? I will leave that to the heart of the reader.



10. Financially exploit followers.

Agreed. I am totally in favor of the home church model. Do away with all multi-million $ churches that keep believers heads dry on Sunday morning while those same dry headed believers cannot pay their bills. But are we saying that everyone that has a church is a cult?



11. Beliefs become more important than people.

Always placing people above belief could turn into a dangerous thing? It sounds good in principle, but how far do we go. If you have to deny Christ rather than accept people... is that good? Should we discard the truth about repentance from sin just so we will not hurt people's feelings. Jim Jones and David Koresh were very concerned about people. They could have used some beliefs to steer them in the right path. But I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. How you treat people is a manifestatoin your beliefs. They are not independant of each other in such a way that you can put one over the other. Beliefs determine behavior, and correct belief creates correct behavior toward people.




Welp... your are great bro! Once again we are on opposite sides of a well defined fence. Blessings to you and I pray God softens my head if you are correct and I am wrong. Pray for this bone head and keep the posts coming. You are nothing but determined my well intentioned friend.

Your friend and furture co-Heavenite.
Dids

razzelflabben said:

How sad your view. I do not see these same qualities in the scriptural accounts of Jesus life and teachings, in addition, I know several people who do not fall into these guidelines. I know some as well who do and I know some who have even given over to cults. Your assumtion that all fall into these characteristics as a very disturbing picture of Christ and human nature as a whole.

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thanks Razz.
Please do pray for me that God establish me the truth. I will do the same for you. I count you as a very faithful and loyal servant to God, and praise Him for your stalwartness in following Him even in the times of trouble and pain that you have shared with us. Blessings to you dear heart, and do remember me in your prayers!

Trish1947 said:

I see where you are coming from. But does not God say, that His Word shall not return to Him void? It doesn't say that God shall not return to Him void. His word is powerful. I do not separate the personality of God from what He has said. God wants to be believed when He says something. Not just believe that there is a God.


Tts 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word by preaching.

Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

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Don't forget, John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

This misses the point of what I am saying however, my point is that if God did not manifest himself through the word, they would be meaningless words. Look at it this way. God is true to His word, that is how we know that He is the living God. Buddah, Mollack, etc. did not manifest themselves in thier words, therefore their words are just their words, no living God. This many not seem sugnificant to you or I but to someone who does not believe God to be the living God it is a very dramatic difference. It is in the manifestation of the words that the power lies, not in the words themselves. If the power lies only in the words, than any false teacher would hold the same power as you. Anyone wanting to say I believe would have the same power, and faith, trust, Holy Spirit, etc. has no meaning for the words are the power. I mantain that the power is in God manifesting Himself through the word.

PottersClay said:

Didy, Did you read that list carefull? Do you really not see anything wrong in these things?



How can you suggest that Jesus was guilty of any of these things.
Please take a look at the list again. Do you see any merit in even one of these points that you'd really want to defend and stand behind? Do you think there are points that anyone should defend?

It's not about navel gazing, it's about examining our own hearts. If our hearts condemn us, we need to repent and ask the Lord to change our hearts.

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Thanks for your words sister. I will certainly consider what you have said.
I count you as a friend and a good councel. Blessings to you as I am off for some reflection and "selah" time.

crystalpc said:

Pharisee's never questioned Jesus about healing, their problem was when he said your sins are forgiven. We have turned this around. How do I know that in some sweet by and by my name is writen in the book of life? I haven't seen the book.
I am a temporal being, as well as an eternal one, and temporal will pass away. However, what is easier to say thy sins are forgiven or rise and be healed?
You asked a question about our new bodys. They will be like Jesus, flesh and bone. "a spirit hath not flesh and bone" "we shall be as he is"

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I agree, however, what we are talking about is whether or not Jesus has said the words, you are healed to individuals in the physical, temporal body.

Also agreed, resurrected flesh and blood bodies, but who am I to say that death is then not healing? If my reserrected body is perfect then have I not been healed and God has healed me. My question, is not an answer, but just a question. When God chooses to not bring temperal healing, does that mean that healing has not occured?

PottersClay said:

Yes they did. They criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath. They accused Him of using satan's power to heal.

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Good points, I just didn't think that was what the post was trying to point out, thanks though for some clarity.

I may be wrong here, but while I feel we all need to examine our hearts on this issue, the "cult" issue addressed by Jim's list is not meant to apply so much on an individual basis, but on a "movement wide" basis.

In other words, I may have a hard time personally when someone disagrees with my beliefs, but that may just be a personality flaw that needs to always be right -- not an indication of being in a belief system that fosters a cult mentality.

But if the belief system does foster a feeling of superiority--and we're talking superiority over another true believer--and the basis of the beliefs makes those on the "outside" feel like a "them" or a second class Christian, than something in the premise of that belief needs to be examined.

I am sure you're aware of several -ist and -ism systems that foster the attitudes in that list. Do you find it acceptable in those systems?

didaskalos said:

Thanks for your words sister. I will certainly consider what you have said.
I count you as a friend and a good councel. Blessings to you as I am off for some reflection and "selah" time.

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The feeling is quite mutual Blessings to you as well.

<>< said:

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

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Hi all

I do believe it is God's will to heal all. I believe we can not look at someone who is sick and then say "well God does not heal all". God said if he said it he will do it and his word will not come back to him void. There must be hundreds of reasons why someone is sick. Unforgivness is a big one alone. I really do not like names that we put on each other. I think it is sad that we see what Jesus did ( I am so in love with you, Thanks) when he walk this earth and healed ALL yet we think it stopped after he died. Again the word says he never changes. We eat what we want, think, say and wonder if Gods word is true and then say "Why am I not healed?" I seek 1st the Kingdom of God and the rest falls in to place. God never puts sickness on anyone EVER. The word says ALL good things come for God and sometimes bad. LOL not.

I see people sick around me all the time. We can not be tossed up one day and then down the next. You have to take God at his word. This has nothing to do with WOF. For it is the word and faith to make it work. If Jesus said if you believe in me and confess me as lord then you will live forever then we know we will. Yet he says lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. Peter 2:24 if it says something then that is what God is gona do. And who am I to say it not. All I and say and God as my wittness is it works for me my wife and kids. I am not at all better than anyone else but I have taken the time to really pray and get to know God and still doing it. And I take him at his word and if he told me he will do something he will.

You know I have been called WOF by people and they have said "oh you got that from so and so". My 1st bible was from my mom and as I read things just seam to jump out at me and I was told that was God speaking to me. So I would mark all those things. I never received what I believe from man, I hope I said that right. Yes I am still learning and need church and someone over me. I mean like healing. To me some of the WOF people say what I say . If you do not believe God heals all the time well Praise God. I am not here to change anyone.

Hay its my B-day

Blade said:

Hi all

I do believe it is God's will to heal all. I believe we can not look at someone who is sick and then say "well God does not heal all". God said if he said it he will do it and his word will not come back to him void. There must be hundreds of reasons why someone is sick. Unforgivness is a big one alone. I really do not like names that we put on each other. I think it is sad that we see what Jesus did ( I am so in love with you, Thanks) when he walk this earth and healed ALL yet we think it stopped after he died. Again the word says he never changes. We eat what we want, think, say and wonder if Gods word is true and then say "Why am I not healed?" I seek 1st the Kingdom of God and the rest falls in to place. God never puts sickness on anyone EVER. The word says ALL good things come for God and sometimes bad. LOL not.

I see people sick around me all the time. We can not be tossed up one day and then down the next. You have to take God at his word. This has nothing to do with WOF. For it is the word and faith to make it work. If Jesus said if you believe in me and confess me as lord then you will live forever then we know we will. Yet he says lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. Peter 2:24 if it says something then that is what God is gona do. And who am I to say it not. All I and say and God as my wittness is it works for me my wife and kids. I am not at all better than anyone else but I have taken the time to really pray and get to know God and still doing it. And I take him at his word and if he told me he will do something he will.

You know I have been called WOF by people and they have said "oh you got that from so and so". My 1st bible was from my mom and as I read things just seam to jump out at me and I was told that was God speaking to me. So I would mark all those things. I never received what I believe from man, I hope I said that right. Yes I am still learning and need church and someone over me. I mean like healing. To me some of the WOF people say what I say . If you do not believe God heals all the time well Praise God. I am not here to change anyone.

Hay its my B-day

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Hey, Happy Birthday, we will be celebrating a birthday next week. An exciting time to be sure.

I hear this alot on some of these threads, "God said if he said it he will do it and his word will not come back to him void." I believe this as well but when some on the forum are challenged from scripture, things don't go well, so let me ask you a question. You say that "God never puts sickness on anyone EVER", so what then do you do with Exodus 15:26 KJV And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, whcih I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the Lord that healeth thee. I would greatly appreciate an exogesis on this passage from someone who actually believes that God cannot and never does give sickness. I can point to some others but this says it the plainest I have read, so this passage will do fine. If you want to cross reference, start with Dt. 28:27; 58-60 Please do not assign these verses only to the non believer for the question is how can we believe that God Never Ever puts sickness on anyone.

Mercy Me said:

Yep....."suck it up!! Just ignore that life went to hell... We'll just cram the Word down your throat saying: Don't have a feeling! Don't hurt anymore! It doesn't matter that the promises God gave you fell dead on the ground!"

I am asking - seeking - for honest answers as to why sometimes it doens't work..... and how to reconcile that with what the Word says about it. Am sincerely seeking help........ to understand.

My God, even Jesus wept. Would you tell Him.... "suck it up. Here's a scripture that points out you shouldn't have a feeling!" ??

I already got beat up.....with what happened. I am bloody and raw and fileted open and all you can do is say "Sorry you feel that way, but here's a scripture...too bad your faith isn't strong enough to receive it"....

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You twisted what I said quite a bit.

I'm assuming the "it" you're referring to is faith. I don't know why my faith is not always up to par to the point of immidiate manifestation of healing the moment I need it. I do know that the Word always works but it's my faith that is the issue.

I in no way told you to "suck it up". I believe I mentioned earlier the struggle I experienced when I was going to a dr for continuous hemmoraging. For years they tried to control the problem and absoulutely nothing worked. I experienced the same feelings that you are. I could never conclude that it was God's word that was the problem though. And since it was not God's word that was the problem then the only other direction I could look was to myself.

Why is it so difficult for us to conclude that it is us that needs to grow? Why must we instead conclude that those teaching the Word are telling lies instead and that what they have found in the scripure is not true? Why do we do this?

Fortionately, I kept asking questions even though my ego took a beating. It was not the people I was asking that was beating me up with their answers it was my inner man who did not like the idea that I was the problem. I had low faith level. So once I came to the correct conclusion then I began to use the scriptures to gain the much needed faith.

I wish I could say that my faith became so strong that I manifested miraculous healing and manifested that healing just like the woman with the issue of blood in the Bible. I did not. I did however gain much ground over my enemy the devil. There are too many things God did for me in that issue to go into. Finely, I resorted to a hysterectomy. I don't regret it.

So you see we are not beating anyone over the head. We are not telling anyone to suck it up. We are merely explainging to you that you do not have to succomb to the enemy. You can and should fight back and the only way that is done is via the sword of the Word that we are given.

Again, I am sorry that your feelings are hurt. There is not intent on our part to hurt you but only give you the info you need to start winning your battle instead of succumbing to it. If not physically then emotionally and spiritually.

Jim B said:

MM,

You have just been the victim of a heartless approach to Christianity where sectarian beliefs become more important than people.

Coincidentally, I have been studying the &#8220;Marks of Cultic Behavior.&#8221; One of the marks of a &#8220;cultic personality&#8221; is that very anomaly (see #11 below).

I am not accusing anyone in this forum of being the member of a cult. But, I am beginning to recognize in myself and others evidence of the kind of personality that seems to be most susceptible to cult-like influence. In fact, I have noticed how often we, in P/C/W circles, may often become more cult-like than Christian in our approach to the Faith.



Here is a list of characteristics of cults that I have found in my research that can apply to even Spirit-filled believers. I have found myself in this list and am working to make some corrections in my behavior and values.

1. Exclusiveness of distinctive doctrines which are held to be superior to others&#8217; beliefs.

2. Denounce those who object to their beliefs.

3. Adopt an &#8220;Us vs. Them&#8221; mentality.
4. Stress, and are well-versed in, pet proof texts (i.e., use the Bible mainly to support beliefs).
5. Teach canned/programmed responses to objections to their beliefs.
6. See Christianity as works-based (i.e., ego-centric), where God's approval or blessing depends on our actions or beliefs.
7. Venerate heroes and follow compelling personalities.
8. Overly-value extra-biblical authority (prophecies, revelations, visions, etc.)
9. Demand loyalty to peculiar beliefs and fellowship.
10. Financially exploit followers.
11. Beliefs become more important than people.
​

\o/

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Jim that is simply NOT true. My comments are well thought out and I try to speak out of my own experience. I am far from heartless. In my opinion I would be heartless to not tell.

This list is hardly one that describes someone who is willing to lay down their feelings and against such accusations still tell what they believe.

These are unfair and inaccurate statements you have applied to your brethern.

Jim B said:

Rather than identifying with these rather nefarious traits, wouldn&#8217;t it be better to try to rid them from our life? I see some of them in me and I do not find them that appealing.

\o/

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I personally saw very few of them in me. I'm not bragging it's just I've worked very hard to submit to God so that He could change me and make me the type of person that He wants me to be. If you read much of Diddy's stuff you would see that he does too. . .he's not itentifying with them. . .he's humoring you.

I believe Jesus was compassionate but He never coddled people. If there was something they were doing that was adding to the problem then He corrected them.