Why Do Catholics

[SadieInTheSand]

I'd like to agree with you, Sadie, except that we were trying to have a serious discussion here. And every one of the three above points is absolutely wrong.

First, we all know the difference between being dead and alive. When physical life ends on Earth and we pass into the afterlife, we all call that death. Acting as though we all don't know the difference, and that we all don't use the same wording in the same way, is not helpful to anyone.

Second, the Elders pray for the Saints on Earth. Yes, except that the issue here was whether WE should pray TO THEM, not whether they pray FOR US. Two entirely different matters.

and Third, the Angel Gabriel's words did not include the second half of the "Hail Mary' prayer--"Holy Mary, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." That part was added by the Pope only a few generations ago.

And look, the angel seems to know that when we stop living on Earth, it's "death." Hmmmm.

Plus, that addition to the words of the angel certainly is not a mere declaration that God favored her (which is what Gabriel said to Mary) but are an act of devotion TO Mary.

It would have been really clever if any of the snappy retort above had been factually correct.


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I am allowed to find something funny on here, and comment on that. I don't need you "tut tut"ing at me for doing so in the middle of your oh so "serious" conversation. Some of it is funny. This is a public message board, open to comment. I suggest that if you can't handle peoples reactions to it, you ought to stop reading right....about.....

now.

Secondly, I found several clever retorts on here, all of which the OP and you seem to have ignored. But see that's not going to ruin my day any, and I feel no need to chide you for saying something contrary to my opinion.

Have nice day.

 

[Albion]

I am allowed to find something funny on here, and comment on that. I don't need you "tut tut"ing at me for doing so in the middle of your oh so "serious" conversation. Some of it is funny. This is a public message board, open to comment. I suggest that if you can't handle peoples reactions to it, you ought to stop reading right....about.....now...not going to ruin my day

But other than that, what'd you think about it?



.

 

[SadieInTheSand]

Goodness. You're entitled to express an opinion here, but so are the rest of us; and my comments were almost entirely concerned with another poster's thoughts, not yours.

Yet you quoted mine, and directed it at me.

 

[Albion]

Yet you quoted mine, and directed it at me.

I couldn't find his original, so I had to use the copy you'd made.

 

[SadieInTheSand]

I will simply quote you:

"I'd like to agree with you, Sadie, except that we were trying to have a serious discussion here".......

Please stop making excuses for having made a condescending comment directly to me. A simple apology would have been forthcoming but that's obviously outside of your conscience at this time. But in putting in such effort to defend your rudeness....well you can probably guess how you're making yourself look. Just drop this.

 

[Albion]

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[Ashlantal]

Saints aren't dead, so your question is meaningless.



Do you need a Bible verse to speak with your mother?



I'm glad you know the Magnificat.

You're not even Catholic ... & Mary is not your mother .

 

[Albion]

You're not even Catholic ... & Mary is not your mother .

I like that avatar you selected.

 

[Ashlantal]

I was catholic until I actually read the bible , praying to saints , angels and Mary is unbiblical . First off half the saints they call saints the church has. O way of knowing if they are I good standing with God. Every time a biblical character meets an angel and tries bowing to this. Angel the angel tells them not to do it . Kneeling in a church asking an angel to pass along your prayers to God is blasphemous . There is only ONE MEDIATOR between us and the father and that is our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Ashlantal]

I like that avatar you selected.

Why thank you !

 

[steve_bakr]

I'd like to agree with you, Sadie, except that we were trying to have a serious discussion here. And every one of the three above points is absolutely wrong.

First, we all know the difference between being dead and alive. When physical life ends on Earth and we pass into the afterlife, we all call that death. Acting as though we all don't know the difference, and that we all don't use the same wording in the same way, is not helpful to anyone.

Second, the Elders pray for the Saints on Earth. Yes, except that the issue here was whether WE should pray TO THEM, not whether they pray FOR US. Two entirely different matters.

and Third, the Angel Gabriel's words did not include the second half of the "Hail Mary' prayer--"Holy Mary, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." That part was added by the Pope only a few generations ago.

And look, the angel seems to know that when we stop living on Earth, it's "death." Hmmmm.

Plus, that addition to the words of the angel certainly is not a mere declaration that God favored her (which is what Gabriel said to Mary) but are an act of devotion TO Mary.

It would have been really clever if any of the snappy retort above had been factually correct.

.

When the Saints go into the afterlife, we call it Heaven or Eternal Life or the Beautific Vision, and we say that they are more alive now than they were while on Earth. Christ's resurrection has made Eternal Life a reality.

 

[Albion]

When the Saints go into the afterlife, we call it Heaven or Eternal Life or the Beautific Vision, and we say that they are more alive now than they were while on Earth. Christ's resurrection has made Eternal Life a reality.

Sure, and we also call the cessation of life on Earth "death." To play that all-too-familar "they are not dead" card is just a way to avoid the issue at hand. I've witnessed it so many times that whenever this subject comes up I almost hold my breath in anticipation of being treated to it once again.

 

[steve_bakr]

Sure, and we also call the cessation of life on Earth "death." To play that all-too-familar "they are not dead" card is just a way to avoid the issue at hand. I've witnessed it so many times that whenever this subject comes up I almost hold my breath in anticipation of being treated to it once again.

Albion,

And knowing they are alive, it also surprises me when folks refer to them as the dead. Sure, we all must pass through physical death, but the emphasis of our Christian hope is in what the Apostles' Creed calls "life everlasting." When we talk about the "Communion of Saints," we mean those saints on Earth and in Heaven. We believe that the Saints in Heaven are actively participating in the Body of Christ. That is why, at the end of the general confession, we say, "I ask Mary, Ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God."

 

[Albion]

Albion,

And knowing they are alive, it also surprises me when folks refer to them as the dead.

OK. Fortunately I didn't do that.

 

[WisdomTree]

I was catholic until I actually read the bible , praying to saints , angels and Mary is unbiblical . First off half the saints they call saints the church has. O way of knowing if they are I good standing with God. Every time a biblical character meets an angel and tries bowing to this. Angel the angel tells them not to do it . Kneeling in a church asking an angel to pass along your prayers to God is blasphemous . There is only ONE MEDIATOR between us and the father and that is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Funny that, I'd say I was a proud semi-anti-Catholic Protestant (Reformed, Baptist, and Pentecostal) until I actually read the bible which afterwards it prompted me to do proper research. I find it quite interesting how people can come from different background and arrive at a completely opposite conclusion.

I'd contribute more towards this very interesting topic, but I don't think I could add more content than there already is. Though a lot of points needs to be clarified better...

 

[Ashlantal]

In most cases, it is not. You can prove this for yourself if you read some of the actual language used in these prayers to deceased persons who, contrary to what you wrote, may or may not be with God. But that little fact doesn't deter one from venerating and petitioning them, does it?

These prayers usually do much more than merely ask for help--although that is the excuse that is approved for use whenever the issue gets raised. They approach a worship of those persons and attribute great supernatural powers to them.

This is pretty much my POV . While I understand the actual meaning for praying to Mary and the saints, the actual language that's used in most of these prayers is BEYOND veneration, it's worship & idolatry. And that is an abomination before the Lord . Also, Catholic priests call themselves Father, hear confessions, and they forgive sins and make people do works in order to be forgiven. What is that about ??? I don't even know what to say. Plus the whole purgatory ideal that isn't even talked about in the Bible. And the Assumption of Mary, which isn't talked about in the Bible.

 

[Albion]

This is pretty much my POV . While I understand the actual meaning for praying to Mary and the saints, the actual language that's used in most of these prayers is BEYOND veneration, it's worship & idolatry. And that is an abomination before the Lord . Also, Catholic priests call themselves Father, hear confessions, and they forgive sins and make people do works in order to be forgiven. What is that about ??? I don't even know what to say. Plus the whole purgatory ideal that isn't even talked about in the Bible. And the Assumption of Mary, which isn't talked about in the Bible.

All of that is true, although I don't make too much out of the use of the word "Father" since Jesus was speaking of something else when he said not to call any man on Earth by that term. The problem, if that's the word to use, is exactly what you've discerned--the unwillingness to admit to what actually is done...and done with the full permission and encouragement of the church authorities.

If the devotion is CALLED something other than what it is, or the alleged intention is other than what the plain facts show the acts to amount to, then that is supposed to make everything okey dokey. Yet we all worship a God who describes himself as a jealous God and commands that our practices and our inner feelings BOTH be correct in his eyes.

 

[steve_bakr]

All of that is true, although I don't make too much out of the use of the word "Father" since Jesus was speaking of something else when he said not to call any man on Earth by that term. The problem, if that's the word to use, is exactly what you've discerned--the unwillingness to admit to what actually is done...and done with the full permission and encouragement of the church authorities.

If the devotion is CALLED something other than what it is, or the alleged intention is other than what the plain facts show the acts to amount to, then that is supposed to make everything okey dokey. Yet we all worship a God who describes himself as a jealous God and commands that our practices and our inner feelings BOTH be correct in his eyes.

It may be that in regions and cultures of the Catholic world, some of the people's attentions to Saints are misguided. But the Saints are only human beings. They are not deities. They are Saints because of their faith, piety, and their service and relationship to Jesus Christ. They are glorified and in Heaven, and pray on our behalf, because they are active members of the Body of Christ and God's kingdom. We differentiate between veneration and worship. Veneration is payed to the Saints; and it is respectful devotion. Worship--or adoration--is reserved for God alone. No one else may be worshipped--neither angels nor Saints nor Mary. But the prayers of Saints are efficacious, and we may ask them for intercessory prayer.

 

[IOWLBNIF]

It may be that in regions and cultures of the Catholic world, some of the people's attentions to Saints are misguided. But the Saints are only human beings. They are not deities. They are Saints because of their faith, piety, and their service and relationship to Jesus Christ. They are glorified and in Heaven, and pray on our behalf, because they are active members of the Body of Christ and God's kingdom. We differentiate between veneration and worship. Veneration is payed to the Saints; and it is respectful devotion. Worship--or adoration--is reserved for God alone. No one else may be worshipped--neither angels nor Saints nor Mary. But the prayers of Saints are efficacious, and we may ask them for intercessory prayer.

the dead know nothing...



so how do you reconcile your view of them "praying for you in heaven"



please explain

 

[Albion]

It may be that in regions and cultures of the Catholic world, some of the people's attentions to Saints are misguided.

The USA is certainly included in that.

But the Saints are only human beings. They are not deities.

All the more reason not to treat them like demi-gods, wouldn't you agree?

They are Saints because of their faith, piety, and their service and relationship to Jesus Christ. They are glorified and in Heaven,

I don't want to second guess every last thing you are saying here, but this is a problem in itself. Who knows if these saints are, in fact, in heaven?

Assuming that there is a Purgatory, they might very well be there and completely incapable of acting on our behalf. In fact, isn't it odd that the way a person gets to be declared a saint is if a certain number of miracles are believed to have been performed through their intervention, following prayer, which means that people are praying to people who are not known to be in heaven. Surely it can't be a good practice to pray to spirits who are not necessarily in heaven and not able to intercede on our behalf.

We differentiate between veneration and worship

Actually, the RCC calls the veneration a form of worship. Yet there are howls of protest if anyone calls it saint worship.

Veneration is payed to the Saints; and it is respectful devotion.

If the practices were merely respectful devotion there would be very little objection. I know that some Christians are offended by so much as naming a church "St. Hedwig's" but most of us are alarmed only at the prayers and acts that go beyond this.

No one else may be worshipped--neither angels nor Saints nor Mary.

That's what I'd say, but what you've just been explaining is a form of worship, even by the RCC's own description. "Oh but, it's not THAT kind of worship...." is what we are told.

But the prayers of Saints are efficacious, and we may ask them for intercessory prayer.

Not according to the Bible, which is why we cannot agree.