Why do beliefs matter?

[leftrightleftrightleft]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

Why does belief or disbelief in the truth of salvation determine whether someone is saved?

If you do something for your whole family, you do not then demand that your individual family members believe you did it in order for them to receive that which you already did. It would be like proclaiming to your family, "I have given you $100, but only if you believe I gave you $100."

What does the belief or disbelief have to do with it? It seems nonsensical that you would demand that someone believe you gave them something before you give them that thing. It also doesn't seem like "grace" or "mercy" at all, but rather fairly petty and bratty.

If God died for all of us, then we should stop playing these games with belief and acknowledge that everyone is saved.

From that point on, Christianity becomes only a way of life. An acknowledgement of the salvation and a deliberate choice to live a particular way. It allows Christianity to break away from the exclusivist relic present in ancient Judaism and instead embrace a non-exclusivist attitude. In the Western world, the idea of non-exclusive religion seems so foreign that its hard to even pinpoint what a religion is if it is non-exclusive. But, in this context, "the Christian life" is just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

If others choose to live their lives by a different set of practices that is okay. If others choose to believe that your practices are wrong or that God does not exist, that is okay. Because, by the grace of God (TRUE grace), we are saved.

We don't need to punch a "belief" ticket, do we?

Thoughts?

 

[Joshua260]

Your $100 analogy is not quite right. If I had to use a rewording of your analogy, i would say that it's more like God gave you a $100 CHECK, and assures you that you can cash it at the bank. It's then up to you to trust his assurance and act on it by going to the bank and actually cashing it in. What non-believers do is lay the check aside with either a lack of belief that the check is valid, or throw it away altogether with the conviction that it is most likely not valid.

So when we advocate that you believe, what we mean to say is that you should TRUST that the check is valid! (Trust in Jesus' salvation work).

 

[football5680]

Jesus died for everybody who believes in him. Humans have the ability to choose whether they believe or not which is why we can say Jesus died for everybody. The fact that Jesus died for humanity does not mean that everybody will accept the offer of salvation. God gave us free will and we can choose to accept or reject him.

 

[isleof]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

Why does belief or disbelief in the truth of salvation determine whether someone is saved?

Easy. Rejecting belief in God is rejecting salvation.

Don't want to work your mind too hard.

 

[Sketcher]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

No it does not. You can't claim the prize so to speak, if you do not repent and believe.

 

[Rattus58]

Your $100 analogy is not quite right. If I had to use a rewording of your analogy, i would say that it's more like God gave you a $100 CHECK, and assures you that you can cash it at the bank. It's then up to you to trust his assurance and act on it by going to the bank and actually cashing it in. What non-believers do is lay the check aside with either a lack of belief that the check is valid, or throw it away altogether with the conviction that it is most likely not valid.

So when we advocate that you believe, what we mean to say is that you should TRUST that the check is valid! (Trust in Jesus' salvation work).

Or they squander it and have nothing to show for themselves when it's time to cash it in...

Aloha...

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

Why does belief or disbelief in the truth of salvation determine whether someone is saved?

If you do something for your whole family, you do not then demand that your individual family members believe you did it in order for them to receive that which you already did. It would be like proclaiming to your family, "I have given you $100, but only if you believe I gave you $100."

What does the belief or disbelief have to do with it? It seems nonsensical that you would demand that someone believe you gave them something before you give them that thing. It also doesn't seem like "grace" or "mercy" at all, but rather fairly petty and bratty.

If God died for all of us, then we should stop playing these games with belief and acknowledge that everyone is saved.

From that point on, Christianity becomes only a way of life. An acknowledgement of the salvation and a deliberate choice to live a particular way. It allows Christianity to break away from the exclusivist relic present in ancient Judaism and instead embrace a non-exclusivist attitude. In the Western world, the idea of non-exclusive religion seems so foreign that its hard to even pinpoint what a religion is if it is non-exclusive. But, in this context, "the Christian life" is just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

If others choose to live their lives by a different set of practices that is okay. If others choose to believe that your practices are wrong or that God does not exist, that is okay. Because, by the grace of God (TRUE grace), we are saved.

We don't need to punch a "belief" ticket, do we?

Thoughts?[/QUOTE/}

REPLY:

The answer is because a Person has to OWN Christ and all he did on the cross for that person. It requires a whole hearted commitment , surrender of Self, willingness to turn from sin lifestyles, willingness to have Gods spirit change you into a new creation from how you used to be, and to worship and honor God with your whole heart, mind, and will .

God provided THE way to be reconciled to himself, to have sins forgiven, and to get to Heaven...but it has to be RECIEVED and OWNED and personally applied to the Individual . Salvation is not a blanket thing automatically giving everyone reconciliation to God just because a Person agrees that Christ came to die on the cross.

God is presenting a free gift to humanity...and a gift has to be received in order for it to consummate a transaction ; you cant just put the gift over in the corner and not let it have any significance...for....that would be an insult to the Giver. If you want to right this minute secure your place in heaven and be in a right standing with God your creator, then, simply follow thru with the signature passage I have listed below. But it must be done in total sincerity with the evidence that a change has taken place in your life and that means a departing from the world , its illicit pleasures, its Idols , and its destructive anti-God philosophies --- its a complete surrender to Christ your King and Creator . Its relingquishing ones pride to make himself his own 'god' in life.

DId that help ?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Your $100 analogy is not quite right. If I had to use a rewording of your analogy, i would say that it's more like God gave you a $100 CHECK, and assures you that you can cash it at the bank. It's then up to you to trust his assurance and act on it by going to the bank and actually cashing it in. What non-believers do is lay the check aside with either a lack of belief that the check is valid, or throw it away altogether with the conviction that it is most likely not valid.

So when we advocate that you believe, what we mean to say is that you should TRUST that the check is valid! (Trust in Jesus' salvation work).

This is a good answer. Thanks for the response.

 

[oi_antz]

I think beliefs only matter because they impact our actions. Our actions wrt Jesus Christ and the salvation He offers can be impacted by our beliefs. I think even if someone lacks sufficient conviction to be certain that they will be judged by Him after they die, they may have sufficient belief that should it happen, He will save them. I think this should be possible for a person of atheist belief too. So the belief here is not a matter of whether God exists, but whether Jesus is saviour.

The interesting question with that in mind, is why would believing that Jesus is saviour be important? I will think more about that, but I'm sure it does matter because of the fact that beliefs shape our thoughts and actions.

 

[cloudyday2]

Your $100 analogy is not quite right. If I had to use a rewording of your analogy, i would say that it's more like God gave you a $100 CHECK, and assures you that you can cash it at the bank. It's then up to you to trust his assurance and act on it by going to the bank and actually cashing it in. What non-believers do is lay the check aside with either a lack of belief that the check is valid, or throw it away altogether with the conviction that it is most likely not valid.

So when we advocate that you believe, what we mean to say is that you should TRUST that the check is valid! (Trust in Jesus' salvation work).

I know that leftrightleftrightleft said this was a good answer, but it doesn't seem compelling to me.

I thought leftrightleftrightleft was very insightful when he pointed-out that universal salvation tends to make Christianity seem very different. (That is part of what I meant in my own thread where I said Christianity seems like a mirage to me now.)

If oi_antz is right that belief implies action then it seems that we can use a proof by counterexample to show that many Christians do not believe - especially if we rule-out actions performed to prove their own righteousness.

Does a conversion experience mean a person believes? If so, why do so many Christians come to doubt their conversion experience and go back for another.

Christians used to believe that any sin committed after baptism would not be forgiven so many (such as Emperor Constantine) waited until death to be baptized. I would be skeptical of anybody claiming to live free from sin after baptism. And if belief implies action then the wishy-washy actions of professed believers indicates that belief is not a discrete yes/no thing - it's maybe yes/maybe no.

If belief is not a discrete value then how can a Christian have such certainty about his/her salvation and the damnation of non-Christians?

It makes more sense to say that salvation depends exclusively on the mercy of Jesus. Nobody should make any assumptions about this until they are dead. So that's my view - universal uncertainty about salvation. But this creates the same problem mentioned by leftrightleftrightleft in the opening post. Christianity seems like just another method to live a better life.

 

[hedrick]

Whether Christ died for all is a matter of debate, as you'll see in the Soteriology forum. I think the NT says at times that he did. But still, most of us think that in order for his death to be useful to us, we need to take advantage of it. E.g. Paul's idea is that faith unites us with Christ, and as we see in Rom 6, we die with Christ and are raised to new life.

Jesus’ own statement about his death, at the Last Supper, was that he was dying to establish the new covenant. This is generally understood as a reference to Jer 31:31, which speaks of a covenant written in our hearts. Again I would say that for that to happen requires our participation.

So if you think Jesus died for everyone, it still requires participation from us.

Again, Christians don’t agree on the form of that response. Many believe that in order to die with Christ, or to be part of the new covenant, you need to have faith in Christ explicitly. Others think that you can respond as Christ taught without having heard of him. But it does appear from Jesus’ teaching that there are people who reject God’s demands, and that they will be judged. That kind of teaching about judgement wouldn’t make sense if Christ’s death saved everyone. Jesus himself taught that God’s forgiveness requires repentance, and also forgiving other people. And that it had to be based on love of God and others.

It’s worth noting that when we talk about a requirement being faith, this does not primarily mean intellectual belief. Rather, faith is putting our trust in God. That would include repentance and being part of what Jesus called the new covenant and Paul being in Christ. Of course it’s hard to put your trust in God if you don’t believe he exists, or in the new covenant established by Christ if you don’t think he was acting for or even as God in establishing the Kingdom. So there is certainly some understanding involved. Just how much is, as always, up for discussion. It ranges from the Pope, who thinks that even some atheists may have had the new covenant written in their hearts, to hardcore who think that you have to believe that Christ is God, and maybe even accept the specific doctrine of the Trinity. I'm closer to the Pope on this one.

 

[Chesterton]

As_a_Man_Thinketh in his Heart, so is he.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

It makes more sense to say that salvation depends exclusively on the mercy of Jesus. Nobody should make any assumptions about this until they are dead. So that's my view - universal uncertainty about salvation. But this creates the same problem mentioned by leftrightleftrightleft in the opening post. Christianity seems like just another method to live a better life.

This is kind of how I view Christianity. I think of it as a way of life which shouldn't claim to have a monopoly on the truth. As I said before, certain things about Christianity are just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

I think the heart of the problem with all modern conceptions of the three Abrahamic faiths is that they seek to monopolize truth. Eastern religions and paganism have never fallen into this trap. Thus, in Japan, if you count the number of adherents to religions you get a value of 1.7 times the population (Morioka, 1975).

 

[ananda]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

Why does belief or disbelief in the truth of salvation determine whether someone is saved?

If you do something for your whole family, you do not then demand that your individual family members believe you did it in order for them to receive that which you already did. It would be like proclaiming to your family, "I have given you $100, but only if you believe I gave you $100."

What does the belief or disbelief have to do with it? It seems nonsensical that you would demand that someone believe you gave them something before you give them that thing. It also doesn't seem like "grace" or "mercy" at all, but rather fairly petty and bratty.

If God died for all of us, then we should stop playing these games with belief and acknowledge that everyone is saved.

From that point on, Christianity becomes only a way of life. An acknowledgement of the salvation and a deliberate choice to live a particular way. It allows Christianity to break away from the exclusivist relic present in ancient Judaism and instead embrace a non-exclusivist attitude. In the Western world, the idea of non-exclusive religion seems so foreign that its hard to even pinpoint what a religion is if it is non-exclusive. But, in this context, "the Christian life" is just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

If others choose to live their lives by a different set of practices that is okay. If others choose to believe that your practices are wrong or that God does not exist, that is okay. Because, by the grace of God (TRUE grace), we are saved.

We don't need to punch a "belief" ticket, do we?

Thoughts?

I, as a Messianic, do not believe in "belief only". Belief must exist with love, trust, repentance, faithfulness, and obedience.

 

[oi_antz]

I know that leftrightleftrightleft said this was a good answer, but it doesn't seem compelling to me.

I thought leftrightleftrightleft was very insightful when he pointed-out that universal salvation tends to make Christianity seem very different. (That is part of what I meant in my own thread where I said Christianity seems like a mirage to me now.)

If oi_antz is right that belief implies action then it seems that we can use a proof by counterexample to show that many Christians do not believe - especially if we rule-out actions performed to prove their own righteousness.

Does a conversion experience mean a person believes? If so, why do so many Christians come to doubt their conversion experience and go back for another.

Christians used to believe that any sin committed after baptism would not be forgiven so many (such as Emperor Constantine) waited until death to be baptized. I would be skeptical of anybody claiming to live free from sin after baptism. And if belief implies action then the wishy-washy actions of professed believers indicates that belief is not a discrete yes/no thing - it's maybe yes/maybe no.

If belief is not a discrete value then how can a Christian have such certainty about his/her salvation and the damnation of non-Christians?

It makes more sense to say that salvation depends exclusively on the mercy of Jesus. Nobody should make any assumptions about this until they are dead. So that's my view - universal uncertainty about salvation. But this creates the same problem mentioned by leftrightleftrightleft in the opening post. Christianity seems like just another method to live a better life.

It sounds like I may not have expressed myself properly. I am not saying any one belief is necessary for salvation, but rather whatever beliefs we have are going to impact our actions, and our actions are what [not salvation, but condemnation] is due to.

For instance, consider when someone is condemned at the Great White Throne for their sin. Is it not because of some action that has caused someone to begrudge them? Assuming this is so, can we not identify some belief that person had, that caused them to do that action? Remember, nobody is condemned unless it is for having sinned.

This is why I have said that beliefs are behind our actions, and that our beliefs therefore can have an impact on salvation.

 

[cloudyday2]

It sounds like I may not have expressed myself properly. I am not saying any one belief is necessary for salvation, but rather whatever beliefs we have are going to impact our actions, and our actions are what [not salvation, but condemnation] is due to.

For instance, consider when someone is condemned at the Great White Throne for their sin. Is it not because of some action that has caused someone to begrudge them? Assuming this is so, can we not identify some belief that person had, that caused them to do that action? Remember, nobody is condemned unless it is for having sinned.

This is why I have said that beliefs are behind our actions, and that our beliefs therefore can have an impact on salvation.

Thanks. I'm still confused, but I think the problem is my lack of familiarity with Christian theological theories as opposed to your explanation.

Maybe it would help to clarify "belief" - like belief in what? Your other post mentioned belief that Jesus is the savior. But how about atheists that might believe that kindness and generosity are good goals? It seems like the behaviors would be similar, so the Great White Throne would turn out the same for them?

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks. I'm still confused, but I think the problem is my lack of familiarity with Christian theological theories as opposed to your explanation.

Maybe it would help to clarify "belief" - like belief in what? Your other post mentioned belief that Jesus is the savior. But how about atheists that might believe that kindness and generosity are good goals? It seems like the behaviors would be similar, so the Great White Throne would turn out the same for them?

Yes, when I speak of belief, I speak of a specific logical process that influences our decisions. So atheists in your example seem to have beliefs that cause them to do good things instead of bad, and because they aren't doing bad things, they aren't accruing judgement for their actions. Conversely, people sometimes have beliefs that do cause them to do bad things, and those bad things are what brings judgement upon them. "Good" and "bad" being the subjective terms of course, with God being the judge.

As for why a belief in Jesus as saviour might contribute to salvation, it is something I don't fully understand. I have some understandings about it, though I would not suggest my understanding is complete. Maybe a good place to begin is with John 3:18-19.

 

[bling]

This is kind of how I view Christianity. I think of it as a way of life which shouldn't claim to have a monopoly on the truth. As I said before, certain things about Christianity are just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

I think the heart of the problem with all modern conceptions of the three Abrahamic faiths is that they seek to monopolize truth. Eastern religions and paganism have never fallen into this trap. Thus, in Japan, if you count the number of adherents to religions you get a value of 1.7 times the population (Morioka, 1975).

The difference I see between Christianity and all other religions is: “Why you lead this better life”?

All other religions have some “spiritual ladder” you ascend up by leading a spiritual life, while in Christianity there is nothing more to get you have everything to begin with, except for actually being in heaven and you can’t get that in this life anyway. You do have a guarantee of heaven with the gift today of the Holy Spirit as a down payment. Christian are still not trying to do stuff to get into heaven since they own the birthright and since it is theirs to do with as they please (of their own free will) they can give it away if they want. Following God’s direction will enable their “Love” to grow and maintain their desire for a home in heaven, but it is always up to the individual.
The “reason” Christians lead an exemplary life is totally out of gratitude for what has been given them since they can get no more.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

According to Christian theology, didn't Jesus die for everyone such that they can have eternal life? If he died for everyone, doesn't that imply that everyone is thus saved?

Why does belief or disbelief in the truth of salvation determine whether someone is saved?

If you do something for your whole family, you do not then demand that your individual family members believe you did it in order for them to receive that which you already did. It would be like proclaiming to your family, "I have given you $100, but only if you believe I gave you $100."

What does the belief or disbelief have to do with it? It seems nonsensical that you would demand that someone believe you gave them something before you give them that thing. It also doesn't seem like "grace" or "mercy" at all, but rather fairly petty and bratty.

If God died for all of us, then we should stop playing these games with belief and acknowledge that everyone is saved.

From that point on, Christianity becomes only a way of life. An acknowledgement of the salvation and a deliberate choice to live a particular way. It allows Christianity to break away from the exclusivist relic present in ancient Judaism and instead embrace a non-exclusivist attitude. In the Western world, the idea of non-exclusive religion seems so foreign that its hard to even pinpoint what a religion is if it is non-exclusive. But, in this context, "the Christian life" is just a set of practices that you do to love God, better yourself, better your neighbours, better the world and honour your time spent on Earth.

If others choose to live their lives by a different set of practices that is okay. If others choose to believe that your practices are wrong or that God does not exist, that is okay. Because, by the grace of God (TRUE grace), we are saved.

We don't need to punch a "belief" ticket, do we?

Thoughts?

The word of God does indeed say that a person must believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour to be saved.

I usually do not work with analogies because the word of God is the only truth that can be counted on.

But suppose you do give the $100 to a family member. But they just refuse to accept it. Do they have the $100 dollars?