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BT said:Actually the Bible gives ample information about what happened during those three days, and so bears witness just fine. Keep hunting.
NASB - Acts 2:31
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
NASB - 1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
NASB - Luke 23:43
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
NASB - Luke 23:46
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.
NASB - John 19:30
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
Gold Dragon said:There are several passages about what happened and it is difficult to say with certainty what happened and what the creedal authors meant when they inserted that line.
Probe Ministries - Why Did Jesus have to Go to Hell after He Died?
Passages in support of descending:
Passages used to oppose descending:
BT said:Have you ever seen Larkin's representation of the grave? It's really not that difficult of a subject to tell you the truth.
Gold Dragon said:Why would I follow the traditions of man when I have the word of God?
BT said:It's not a tradition (thanks for proving my point). It's a graphic drawn from the Word of God. That helps in understanding the grave, where Jesus and the thief went what happened after etc.
BT said:Because if you look at all your skim-study verses you miss the most obvious proof that Christ didn't at least ascend, John 20:17
BT said:GD honestly, not bickering at you, you spend too much time on the Internet and not enough time in deep Bible study, and then make misleading statements that are the result of "skim-study". Have you ever seen Larkin's representation of the grave? It's really not that difficult of a subject to tell you the truth.
Crazy Liz said:Not bickering with you, either, BT, but you don't study the things you argue against very well. Modern English translations use the phrase, "He descended to the dead." (http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm) I think most Christians take this to mean Jesus was really, truly dead, and did not just appear to be dead. I realize some Christians, particularly in the Word of Faith movement, make some strange doctrinal claims based on this clause, but I think you and I would both consider them on the fringes. However, here's what Calvin says about this clause, since, to the best of my recollection, you are a Calvinist.
Crazy Liz said:Not bickering with you, either, BT, but you don't study the things you argue against very well. Modern English translations use the phrase, "He descended to the dead." (http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm) I think most Christians take this to mean Jesus was really, truly dead, and did not just appear to be dead. I realize some Christians, particularly in the Word of Faith movement, make some strange doctrinal claims based on this clause, but I think you and I would both consider them on the fringes. However, here's what Calvin says about this clause, since, to the best of my recollection, you are a Calvinist.
BT said:Not bickering with you either Liz, but I'm confident that I've done an adequate amount of study on the issue thanks very much. I understand the implications of the wording of the creed, the point was as to why "we" reject it, besides not being creedal. I, unlike you as far as I know, was raised Catholic and said the creed almost daily for years. I know what we were taught to say and said.
Calvinist? ROFL oh Street Preacher and BBAS and ksen are gonna love you for that, but no. I'm no calvinist.
BT said:Calvinist? ROFL oh Street Preacher and BBAS and ksen are gonna love you for that, but no. I'm no calvinist.
BT said:Have you ever seen Larkin's representation of the grave? It's really not that difficult of a subject to tell you the truth.
Gold Dragon said:Googled and found the graphic you are referring to and yes, I've seen it before. Obviously you should know I reject his charts since I consider dispensationalism to be fundamentally flawed. But don't let that stop you from believing his charts.
Here is a link for those interested in how the dispensationalist Clarence Larkin (1850-1924) viewed dispensationalism and the spirit world. They are helpful in outlining this man's view and illustrating the dispensationalist tendency to emphasize differences in word usage in the bible for things many others consider to be synonyms as well as emphasizing literal meanings where many others consider symbolic ones. Clarence Larkin charts
That was just coldBT said:Your liberty is that you can ask questions, or post fellowship posts.. like "Happy Birthday". That is where it ends.
Our liberties in OBOB are that we can ask questions, or post fellowship posts.. like "Happy Birthday". That is where it ends for us.
Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight?" Meaning that this thread has nothing to do with the Catholic perspective concerning the Creed
The Text of the Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And arose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the prophets. In One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.
Where to find the articles of the Nicene Creed in the Bible
I believe in one God--- James 2:19, Ephesians 4:6
The Father Almighty--- Ephesians 4:6, Genesis 17:1
Maker of heaven and earth--- Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 40:28
And of all things visible and invisible--- Colossians 1:16
And in One Lord Jesus Christ--- Ephesians 4:5, Philippians 2:11
The Son of God--- Acts 8:37, 2 Corinthians 1:19
The Only-Begotten--- John 1:14, John 3:16, 1 John 4:9
Begotten of the Father before all ages--- John 17:24
Light of Light--- 1 John 1:5, John 1:4-9
True God of True God--- John 17:3, 1 John 5:20
Begotten, not made--- Hebrews 1:5
Of one essence with the Father--- John 10:30, John 14:10-11
By Whom all things were made--- Ephesians 3:9, John 1:1-3
Who for us men and for our salvation--- Romans 1:16, John 12:47
Came down from the heavens--- John 16:28
And was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit--- Luke 1:35
And the Virgin Mary--- Luke 1:30-31
And became man--- Philippians 2:7-8, Hebrews 2:16
And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate--- John 19:15-16
And suffered--- John 19:28, Acts 17:2, Hebrews 2:18, 1 Peter 2:21
And was buried--- Matthew 27:59-60, Mark 15:46, Luke 23:53, John 19:41-42
And arose again on the third day according to the Scriptures--- Psalm 16:10, Hosea 6:2, Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-7, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
And acsended into the heavens--- Acts 1:9
And sitteth at the right hand of the Father--- Acts 7:55-56, Luke 22:69, Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 3:1, 1 Peter 3:22
And shall come again with glory--- Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27
To judge both the living and the dead--- 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5, Revelation 20:12
Whose kingdom shall have no end--- Luke 1:33
And in the Holy Spirit--- John 14:26
The Lord--- 2 Corinthians 3:17
The giver of life--- John 3:5
Who proceedeth from the Father--- John 15:26, John 16:14-15
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified--- Matthew 28:19, 1 John 5:7
Who spake by the prophets--- 2 Peter 1:21
In one--- Ephesians 4:5
Holy--- Ephesians 5:27
Catholic(Universal)--- Colossians 1:5-6
And Apostolic Church--- Ephesians 2:20, Revelation 21:14
I confess one baptism for the remission of sins--- Acts 22:16, Ephesians 4:5
I look for the resurrection of the dead--- John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15
And the life of the age to come--- Revelation 21:3-5, Revelation 22:1-5
Gwenyfur said:
So what's to reject?
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
okay...we technically agree with the doctrine behind this creed so why reject it? Maybe I'm having a blonde day or I missed something....but what's the ruckus about?Gold Dragon said:There seems to be some confusion between the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.
The Nicene Creed was written in the First Council of Nicea in 325AD and was a response to Arianism. Gwenyfur quoted it above and it did include a line about the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Apostle's Creed is suspected to be written in the first or second centuries as a response to Gnosticism. Arians could also agree to the Apostles Creed so the Nicene Creed was created to solidify the doctrine of the Trinity, among other things.
Here is the text of the Apostle's Creed although many modern versions of the creed substitute "into hell" with "to the dead".
Gwenyfur said:okay...we technically agree with the doctrine behind this creed so why reject it? Maybe I'm having a blonde day or I missed something....but what's the ruckus about?
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