Why do all believers connected with "tongues".....

[Beanieboy]

My experience with Pentecostals is the focus on sin. Most people have a moment of weakness - you get drunk, for example. They call it "backsliding," and obey ever command. The problem I had with that was it was always about refraining - refraining from rock music, dancing, stealing, name it. A new convert was smoking. She's a smoker, and again, lecture after lecture about the body being a Holy Temple.

The fact that God would choose to live inside us didn't register. It was all abiut obedience.

I prefer to focus on how I show love to others I interact with. My focus remains on loving my neighbor, and all of the laws are fulfilled in that, which allows you to love God.

I don't think Pentecostals believe this losing salvation as part of their creed.

Those who do insist that once you are saved, you must do good deeds and obey law to earn the maintenance fee, so once saved, you earn your way by what you do.

This is kind of a "nobody's safe" thing I would expect to hear from Survivor.

It's the CD of the month club - 12 CD's for .01! But then you will pay a fee as we send you Cds you don't want.

Salvation isn't earned so it is never lost. Sadly, for some Christians, what they hear is "you can sin all you want!" But if you want to sin all the time, I hughly doubt spirituality, prayer and salvation are something you think about between stealing, fooling people out of money or acting selfishly.

Will good trees bear good fruit? Yes, because it is their nature. They will not volunteer at a homeless shelter to look good in the eyes of others or for a spiritual paycheck in heaven. They do it because it makes the world a better place. That is the reward.

I've never understood why this concept seems so hard for people.

 

[HatGuy]

"all" in this sense.. the law of averages. or, "the exception does not prove the RULE".

If 400 people are in a room, and 399 believe that God is dead, and one believes that God is alive... then "all" believe that God is dead, as the law of averages, or "the exception does not prove the rule".
I stated here that if you can find a pentecostal in a charismatic church who does not believe what His Denomination teaches about "lose your salvation" then this ONE does not prove the rule....but rather the Domination proves the fact.

Listen, you can find a Catholic that does not Pray to Mary, but, that does not Prove that the RCC does not teach that she is the Queen of Heaven, and Co-Mediator with Christ.

I am part of a charismatic group which operates in 70 countries in the world and while the teaching is certainly eclectic, the teaching that you can't lose your salvation within this group is widespread and widely believed.

And it is not the only group like this I know of. There is also New Frontiers, and it's subsequent networks that were birthed from it.

Perhaps you should remember that it's not only Pentecostal denominations who believe in / practice speaking in tongues?

 

[Josheb]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Amen. Amen.

Yes, what kind of Almighty Spirit is it that can be chased away to the point of new condemnation and the loss of Christ's work?!?

 

[Francis Drake]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Get your facts right before posting because this is garbage.
I've been speaking in tongues for 45 years and have never believed you can lose your salvation. And neither do any of those I associate with.

 

[Behold]

No... that's not what I'm talking about at all...

It helps if you try and discuss with the person your talking with instead of looking under rocks for heretics.

Then make yourself clear. State your point or your question.
And there are no heretics under rocks...They all live in Hebrews, James, and Matthew

 

[Behold]

Get your facts right before posting because this is garbage.
I've been speaking in tongues for 45 years and have never believed you can lose your salvation. And neither do any of those I associate with.

My facts are bullet proof.
If you belong to a Pentecostal denomination then your denomination states in their statement of faith, that YOU can lose your salvation.
If you exist outside of the Charismatic or Pentecostal denominational realm, then this explains you.

 

[Behold]

Amen. Amen.

Yes, what kind of Almighty Spirit is it that can be chased away to the point of new condemnation and the loss of Christ's work?!?

Can you be "un-born" again?
Is there a verse in the NT that says that Christ leaves the body and Spirit of a born again Christian?

No.

 

[Behold]

Actually you are trying to pin me down by giving me an either or response.
Frankly, your OP question has become ingenuous. You want to know "Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation"? .

I can understand why you would want to attack me, instead of just being transparent and clear.
Its typical... truly.
Also, ive stated a few times that if a person who is not involved with a Pentecostal Denomination does not believe you can lose your salvation, yet they say they have a spiritual gift, then this is the exception and not the rule. My Thread is related to the rule. You said yourself that your former Pentecostal church does teach that you can lose your salvation....... which is the context of my Thread.


thx,

B

 

[Behold]

I used to speak in tongues (and prayed to translate) - and I don't subscribe to that theology. But I know what you mean, it's more common if the tongue speaker also believes you need to speak in tongues to be saved.

Yes, its a cultish mindset, where very self righteous people pretend that they have something that other believers don't have, and in fact they will tell you that if you don't speak in a prayer language that they don't even understand is not one of the 9 spiritual gifts, then you are not "filled with the spirit".
Its really just an obscene work of the flesh when they rant about this nonsense.
And im a person who teaches that the supernatural is in fact, for today... That God is the same God.
So, its unfortunate that such a parade of flesh ruins the reality of something that is very special.

Ive been around these types as they take a group of young people and try to teach them how to do it..

They'll say....."ok, just release it...just let it go......like this....>"hosta la shonda.....hosta la shonda....hosta la shonda"......... And its just sickening to see such fakery and carnality.

 

[Behold]

Perhaps they are more Biblical than other Christians

Denying that Eternal life is eternal? Yeah, thats "biblical"......can't you just smell the truth in that???

 

[Behold]

The Church of God, Cleveland TN also believes both of these. I am an ordained minister with that denomination. What exactly would anyone like to know?

Why do you teach that ....The Blood of Jesus that saved YOU< does not keep you saved"?
Why do you teach that .... Jesus who saved YOU, does not keep you saved"?
Why do you replace the Cross and Faith in Christ, with faith in NOT DOING what you say will cause you to lose your salvation, which has become your personal savior?
Why are you so EAGER to try to convince a born again child of God that this verse is a LIE.... and that they can lose their salvation?

Philippians 1:6. "God who HIMSELF began salvation in all the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to Complete it"..

Why are you doing all that for your entire ministry which is probably for most of your life,?

 

[Josheb]

Can you be "un-born" again? Is there a verse in the NT that says that Christ leaves the body and Spirit of a born again Christian?

No.

I completely agree and nothing I have posted should be construed to say otherwise.

 

[Behold]

I completely agree and nothing I have posted should be construed to say otherwise.

Readers...

If Salvation ...if the blood of Jesus can't keep you saved, then its no good... as that would mean that God sent His Son, to.... Jesus said "it is Finished"".....Yet that isn't true. Its only finished if we don't lose our salvation.
That Math does not add up.

Here is way to help a person who has fallen from Grace, and now has Faith in....whatever it is that they believe they must never do, so that they can keep themselves saved by not doing it... ....So, whatever that is, has now become their savior.. and they have NO Faith in Christ. They are a "self saver".

So, reader if you meet one of these sad people who is in this horrible bondage...then tell them this..

"When God saved you, He already knew of every sin you would commit after you were born again, and He SAVED YOU ANYWAY".
So, why would He do that, if you can "lose it" later?
Its because God understands that the Power of the Blood of Jesus has more power to Keep you CLEAN, then you have power to make yourself dirty by sinning.

"where sin abounds.....GRACE MORE ABOUNDS"

 

[Richard T]

Does every single pentecostal believe and teach that you can "Lose it"...... I dont think so..
But does the exception prove the rule? So, let that be the guideline regarding my Thread's POV.
Im still waiting for a Pentecostal to come here and deny my Thread, and im glad if they do, as ive been talking to many since 2004, and ive never met one yet that was currently involved with a Pentecostal church that did not hate the idea of Eternal Security.
Id love to meet one that isn't like this.....but, so far, ....... = ZERO.
Now i will tell you this......The WOF movement.....that Kenneth Copeland bunch, they are an exception, but they dont really claim to be "charismatic" and refer to them as "crazymatic".

Hi, I am one of your exceptions as I am charismatic and believe in once saved always saved. Mainly, I accept the teaching of Bob Yandian, a former Tulsa pastor, who formerly also was a teacher at Rhema. He teaches Christians that are severely lost will come under the sin unto death, that the spirit will be saved though. Here is part of this eternal security message in the context of end times. Here are a few passages he writes.
"This, now, brings me to my concluding point—our salvation is secure in His promise, not in our ability to “endure”. Consider:

Philippians 1:6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
Is Jesus Talking About the Church When He Said "Those Endure to the End Shall Be Saved?" — MINISTER'S CLUB

Yandian made this issue so clear to me that I thought most charismatics did believe you had eternal security, so I am surprised that most do not. From searching the web here is another charismatic teacher from South Africa believing in once saved always saved. Eternal Security - Genuinely Saved, Always Saved! ⋆ Discerning the World

I have not read this but it makes me wonder if R.W. Shambach also believed in OSAS with his titled book "Seven Steps to Eternal Security,

I also believe T.L. Osborn was OSAS. In his book "You are God's best," Osborn on "seeding the new believer" talks about an example of a new convert. "No one said Kariuki, be careful. You are only a sinner saved by grace. You are an unworthy worm of the dust. You must be careful or you will fall into temptations and lose your salvation."

Here is john Osteen on salvation "The Bible says in 1 John 5:13 that God wants you to know that you have eternal life: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You do not have to live in the twilight zone of uncertainty. You do not have to live in that shadowy place of not knowing that you are saved. You do not have to live in doubt. You can be assured of your salvation today!" How To Receive Life Eternal

Anyway, plenty of evidence for at least some tongue talkers that believe in OSAS. Most of these are earlier examples but their meetings would run circles around what most experience today.

 

[Behold]

Hi, I am one of your exceptions as I am charismatic and believe in once saved always saved. Mainly, I accept the teaching of Bob Yandian, a former Tulsa pastor, who formerly also was a teacher at Rhema. He teaches Christians that are severely lost will come under the sin unto death, that the spirit will be saved though. Here is part of this eternal security message in the context of end times. Here are a few passages he writes.
"This, now, brings me to my concluding point—our salvation is secure in His promise, not in our ability to “endure”. Consider:

Philippians 1:6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
Is Jesus Talking About the Church When He Said "Those Endure to the End Shall Be Saved?" — MINISTER'S CLUB

Yandian made this issue so clear to me that I thought most charismatics did believe you had eternal security, so I am surprised that most do not. From searching the web here is another charismatic teacher from South Africa believing in once saved always saved. Eternal Security - Genuinely Saved, Always Saved! ⋆ Discerning the World

I have not read this but it makes me wonder if R.W. Shambach also believed in OSAS with his titled book "Seven Steps to Eternal Security,

I also believe T.L. Osborn was OSAS. In his book "You are God's best," Osborn on "seeding the new believer" talks about an example of a new convert. "No one said Kariuki, be careful. You are only a sinner saved by grace. You are an unworthy worm of the dust. You must be careful or you will fall into temptations and lose your salvation."

Here is john Osteen on salvation "The Bible says in 1 John 5:13 that God wants you to know that you have eternal life: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You do not have to live in the twilight zone of uncertainty. You do not have to live in that shadowy place of not knowing that you are saved. You do not have to live in doubt. You can be assured of your salvation today!" How To Receive Life Eternal

Anyway, plenty of evidence for at least some tongue talkers that believe in OSAS. Most of these are earlier examples but their meetings would run circles around what most experience today.

Interesting .

"7 steps to eternal security? Why won't the Blood of Jesus do it in one Born Again step? Ah.....thats right.....He did.
So much odd theology in the world.
I was just on another forum and the person is telling me that if you backslide, God will stop regenerating you.
Wow.<.
And yes, the WOF movement, Hagan, Copeland, Duplantis, Hickey, Joyce Meyers, Matt Crouch Jr, all believe in Eternal Security.. However, they are all pretty much independent .

 

[lismore]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Yes. It was a teaching I encountered quite frequently when I was in AOG Pentecostal Circles. My family are from a RC background, they believe it also. Vulnerable people and those with mental health issues, the false teaching of loosing salvation can wreak havoc on their minds.

I had the experience of speaking in tongues myself. Therefore I believe it is a real and supernatural phenomenon. That experience, there's no way anyone could convince me that God does not exist now. I would be easier convinced that I don't exist.

Regarding those Pentecostals who 'speak in tongues' and teach you can 'loose your salvation'. It is a conundrum indeed, why the Lord blessed people who teach falsehoods with supernatural signs.

Like some of the Televangelists who preach the most obvious false teachings and then make big claims about raising the dead etc. Why would God bless false teachers with the same power Jesus has?

I believe Matthew 7:15 holds the key, Jesus warned us to watch out for false prophets, elsewhere the warning is especially for these last days.

Spike Milligan talked 'Chinese', but he wasn't filled with the Spirit.

God Bless You

 

[Behold]

Y Why would God bless false teachers with the same power Jesus has?

The answer is too simple for most to accept, because it presents a real problem.
The people who have the prayer language , who also teach against the Grace of God, which is to blaspheme .... who are a Titus 3:10 and a Galatians 1:8 get their ability from the Devil.
I'll show you.....keep reading.
And those who do not exist as a Titus 3:10 and Galatians 1:8, who have experienced the supernatural got their's from God.
The supernatural is real, coming from both Parties involved with supplying ...

When the Anti-Chrirst shows up, he'll perform signs and wonders...
Read your NT. That Beast has POWER.
So obviously the Devil can counterfeit the miraculous. Satan's MINISTERS are MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.. according to the NT.
Ahhhhh.... How about that....thats actually in the New Testament.

Is simply not possible for God to give a spiritual gift to a deceived person who is in direct opposition to the Blood of Jesus.
See.... when you teach and preach that a born again person can go to hell, then you have not understood that Jesus is in them, and the Holy Spirit is in them also.... So your teaching is casting THEM into hell also, BECAUSE there is no departing of the Spirit of God from the Temple that He indwells... "the body of Christ".
Its a fact that there is no verse in the New Testament that even implies that Christ will leave the body and Spirit of a Born Again Christian.. So, when a "tongue talker" casts a Son of God into hell by teaching that they can "lose their salvation" then this person apparently does not realize that they are also teaching that Christ goes to hell and the Holy Spirit as well.... See, we are ONE with God and Christ. We are BIRTHED INTO THE SPRIT OF GOD.....We EXIST IN GOD AND CHRIST.......So, a Son of God goes to hell? They can lose their salvation? Is.......that.........right...

So, for a believer to go to hell, to lose their salvation, ..Christ would have to go also...and the Holy Spirit.

See, that is the heresy that all these people are teaching when they try to twist the word of God to teach you that you can lose your salvation.
So, is God going to them them a Gift?
Really?
But i know who will...

Tomorrow some ranting or very refined "ordained" minister is going to show up if he has the courage, and teach us all the verses out of Hebrews, and James, and Matthew, that he can twist to teach that Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and YOU, can all go to hell... (Lose your salvation).
So, if i miss him, as im pretty busy, do note what i said to you now, and watch him closely as he'll try to teach you that God taught him to tell us that Jesus and the Holy Spirit and US, can all go to the Lake of Fire.

Some of you, have wide eyes right now.
Thats a good thing.



B

 

[stormdancer0]

Why do you teach that ....The Blood of Jesus that saved YOU< does not keep you saved"?
Why do you teach that .... Jesus who saved YOU, does not keep you saved"?
Why do you replace the Cross and Faith in Christ, with faith in NOT DOING what you say will cause you to lose your salvation, which has become your personal savior?
Why are you so EAGER to try to convince a born again child of God that this verse is a LIE.... and that they can lose their salvation?

Philippians 1:6. "God who HIMSELF began salvation in all the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to Complete it"..

Why are you doing all that for your entire ministry which is probably for most of your life,?

I believed OSAS my whole life, until I started studying, when I went to seminary (only in the past 12 years or so).


Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

So even when we are grafted into the family of God, we can still be cut off and cast away.

Luke 9:62
Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

So if we begin to follow Christ, then turn back to our old life, we will not be fit for His kingdom. We lose what we had.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
AND
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

So if we have tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit (therefore a believer), and fall away, it is impossible to restore them again to repentance.

Even Paul was concerned about losing his salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified

This subject is similar to the pre-trib vs. mid-trib vs. post tribulation argument. I see scriptural evidence on both sides. I do not believe you can "accidentally" or thoughtlessly lose your salvation.

However, I do believe that you can deliberately and consciously tell God, "I'm not following you any more." Of course, He will try to help you see that He is the answer to all problems. But there comes a time that a heart is so hardened, that God says, "Okay. You want to walk away from Me? So be it."

 

[stormdancer0]

Yes. It was a teaching I encountered quite frequently when I was in AOG Pentecostal Circles. My family are from a RC background, they believe it also. Vulnerable people and those with mental health issues, the false teaching of loosing salvation can wreak havoc on their minds.

I had the experience of speaking in tongues myself. Therefore I believe it is a real and supernatural phenomenon. That experience, there's no way anyone could convince me that God does not exist now. I would be easier convinced that I don't exist.

Regarding those Pentecostals who 'speak in tongues' and teach you can 'loose your salvation'. It is a conundrum indeed, why the Lord blessed people who teach falsehoods with supernatural signs.

Like some of the Televangelists who preach the most obvious false teachings and then make big claims about raising the dead etc. Why would God bless false teachers with the same power Jesus has?

I believe Matthew 7:15 holds the key, Jesus warned us to watch out for false prophets, elsewhere the warning is especially for these last days.

Spike Milligan talked 'Chinese', but he wasn't filled with the Spirit.

God Bless You

Please do not lump all Pentecostals in with the idiots on TV. There's not one of them worth the powder it would take to blow them up, as my dad used to say.

Yes, speaking in tongues is real. Yes it is from God. And yes, OF COURSE Satan and his followers imitate it. It is not a highly important gift, and over-emphasized way too much in many churches.

But there is not a spiritual gift that I have not seen in my small little church. Broken bones mended, tumors and cancer literally healed instantly, other healings. No one goes in begging for miracles, and they don't happen ever service, not even every month. But they do happen.

Even had a beautiful lady, my "church mama," I called her. Mentor, friend, and cheerleader. She aspirated into her lungs after accidentally doubling her sedative medication (she had minor surgery that day, and took a pain pill, along with her sleep med). She was found not breathing. EMS got her heart started again but EEGs showed no brain activity except in the brain stem part that controls heartbeat, etc. No higher function at all. But her husband heard from God, and wouldn't let them disconnect her and let her go.

For 4 days, they tried to talk the family into letting her go. On the 4th day, she started to wake up. Brain function somehow returned, and 20 days later, she walked out of the hospital. She lived another 4 years, getting to see her great granddaughter and her great grandson born, and both her granddaughters married. The hospital tried to keep her for an extra few days to run tests, because they couldn't figure it out. She told them no.

While we rejoice in these happenings, there is also a sense of shrugging, with a "That's just the way it is here" attitude.No shouting from the rooftops, or calling the local news. No video-tapes, no recordings. Just a small, 20 or so member church, preaching straight from the Bible and nothing else.

 

[Religiot]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

What's truly more curious is why do any believers think that they cannot lose their salvation.

Do you not know that salvation is a gift? Did you not know that you must keep His gift?

If you don't keep His word, then He will not abide (remain) in you.