Why do all believers connected with "tongues".....

Aussie Pete · May 15, 2020

Behold said:
Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Not true. I absolutely do not believe that one who is born again can lose their salvation. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974.

AlexDTX · May 15, 2020

Behold said:
Can Eternal security be Eternal Security, unless its Eternal?
Yet, people believe they can lose their salvation......so, that is to teach and believe that "Eternal' does not mean "eternal".....and many on this very forum will fight you with spit flying and eyes blazing demanding that "you can lose your salvation". One has shown up here in the last 30 mins demanding that you understand that you can lose your salvation...

This type believes and teaches that Eternal Life...is not Eternal. That Eternal Security is not Eternal, because it does not exist.
This is world wide.. Its a person, a Denomination. who are "fallen from Grace"....(if they are born again...as not all of them are..of course.)

I think you missed my point, but it is not important.

Let's compare this to vaccinations. If vaccinations protect those who are vaccinated from disease, why do they get upset that others are not vaccinated? Likewise, if every born again believer has eternal security - because it is not by our works, but God's grace and power - why be concerned with those who say you can lose your salvation?

To answer my own question, would be as a matter of compassion for the insecure feelings they have themselves, and perhaps for others who have yet to come to that conclusion. But where is our confidence? In ourselves or God? If in God, then we know God is more than able to care of his own.

One more point. This is how I understand the word eternal, so it is not a theological definition. Eternal means with no beginning nor end. God is the only eternal being. We have eternal life because the life of God is within us. As created beings withe the life of God, we have everlasting life.

My point is this. God said in Deuteronomy, which is quoted in Hebrews, that he would never leave us nor forsake us. Therefore eternal security is based in this truth. God can not lie nor break his promises. That is why we have eternal security.

Hazelelponi · May 15, 2020

AlexDTX said:
Tell me what is "right doctrine"?

It's off topic to the thread, but I do believe there are some key doctrinal points that would take someone outside of salvation, so it's important to understand them.

The Bible elucidates on the topic of doctrine and hits on a lot of them; works-salvation versus faith alone salvation verses how faith and works work together in the saved; the nature of Jesus; etc. Doctrine was very important to the Apostles, as well as Jesus as He spent a lot of His time refuting a lot of doctrine that developed out of Old Testament misunderstanding.

The New Testament as a whole is about establishing correct doctrine on key issues, and seems very key to salvation itself in many instances.

AlexDTX · May 15, 2020

Behold said:
"The ACTS of the APOSTLES".

Or the Acts of the Holy Spirit could be another variation.

AlexDTX · May 15, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
It's off topic to the thread, but I do believe there are some key doctrinal points that would take someone outside of salvation, so it's important to understand them.

The Bible elucidates on the topic of doctrine and hits on a lot of them; works-salvation versus faith alone salvation verses how faith and works work together in the saved; the nature of Jesus; etc. Doctrine was very important to the Apostles, as well as Jesus as He spent a lot of His time refuting a lot of doctrine that developed out of Old Testament misunderstanding.

The New Testament as a whole is about establishing correct doctrine on key issues, and seems very key to salvation itself.

I agree that it is off topic. But I think right doctrine is really only a few things.

We're all sinners that need salvation
God became the sinnless man Christ Jesus to live the perfect life we could not.
Christ took our sins upon himself so the wrath of God to punish sin went on him, thus reconciling God with mankind.
Because he was innocent, he was resurrected and gives his righteousness to all who will accept it freely.
To accept that gift is to receive the Holy Spirit which creates the new birth with the promise immortality in his return.
We live our lives by faith his finished works, not by our efforts.

This is right doctrine, and what the apostles taught the world. Everything is is simply doctrine and is open for discussion and debate since we are all to be fully persuaded in our own minds. I think a few more points could be added, but, honestly, most of the fiercely debated topics are not worth arguing over.

Blade · May 15, 2020

I see this is 6 pages... I have never come across this. Well... loosing your salvation does not come up allot.. hardly ever. I think saying "ALL".. is really stretching it no?

Tra Phull · May 15, 2020

I do not accept OSAS, but I would not say that I "HATE" the doctrine.

It is very presumptuous to say that "all connected with tongues" "hate, HATE Eternal Security" and it is a point the OP takes as a given that has not been proven or supported anywhere in this thread.

Rather, it seems that Tongues Today & OSnAS are 2 doctrines the OP "hate, HATEs" and wants to link together, to force together - begging the issue that they are linked when they in fact are not.

Radagast · May 15, 2020

Behold said:
Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Your question seems to be "why are there no Charismatic Calvinists?

But there are some. Not many, but some: What is a Reformed Charismatic?

Tra Phull · May 15, 2020

Eternal Security, aka OSAS, is a pillar doctrine of Calvinism.

The reverse is NOT true of Arminianism. In fact, the Remonstrants - followers of Arminius after his death - said the issue of OSAS vs OSnAS was too close to call.

There are OSAS Arminians as well as OSnAS Arminians - they do not HATE each other.

Tra Phull · May 15, 2020

OK, as the poster points out above - there ARE Calvinist Charismatics.

I say there are OSAS as well as OSnAS Arminians, and I am sure there are both charismatic and non-charismatic Arminians.

The only theological perspective which I think does NOT exist is a Calvinist who rejects OSAS

YouAreAwesome · May 15, 2020

Behold said:
Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Not true. My experience is the exact opposite.

HatGuy · May 16, 2020

Behold said:
Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

This is not true.

Dave L · May 16, 2020

AlexDTX said:
David, in 1901 when the Pentecostal movement took off in the 20th century, were they Methodists?

Wesley Methodists according to Curtis Edwards. https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Pentecostalism-Its-Roots-Slavery/dp/1500858080

Behold · May 16, 2020

AlexDTX said:
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the first operation of the Spirit that enables the other gifts to function..

Are you saying that "at conversion we receive the HS"....and there there is a 2nd work, a different occurrence that is "the baptism"?
See, the typical Pentecostal theology is......You get saved, but that is not all the HS's work...There is then the "infilling".....which is a 2nd part.
This is a theology that is only related to the Pentecostal churches.
Some teach it as "a second work of Grace"....etc.

Behold · May 16, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Doctrine matters.

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us---eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)

While someone can know right doctrine and not be saved, I'm not sure you can not know right doctrine and still be saved, or to what degree it can be off.

While Jesus saves, man-made constructs of Jesus or God do not. There are people within Christiandom who don't worship the same God I do, so far are we apart on our ideas of salvation and Christ and God.

We do have to understand that not everyone has the same level or place of understanding, and understanding and knowledge will grow in Christ... so calling people condemned for not having a right understanding is wrong, but doctrine can mean the difference between being saved and not... for real. So it's actually important.

Paul taught us to pay close and devoted attention to correct doctrine, 1 Timothy 4

And there are all levels of spiritual growth related to where a believer exists within their understanding of born again spirituality.

There are really only 2 dangerous theologies that abuse the body of Christ.....tho there are a lot of heresies.... but the 2 that can ruin a Believer's faith are..

1.) Teaching... "you can lose your salvation"....and this one is a horrible bondage once believed as then your Faith has left Jesus and now you are trying to keep your own self saved by not doing any of those things that you feel will cause you to lose your salvation....So, those THINGS are now your savior, as you believe that by not doing those things, you are keeping yourself saved.

2.) Predestined Elect.......this is doctrine of the devil that denies Free Will and accuses God of causing some people to burn in the Lake of fire, by never giving them a choice to believe in Christ. This poisonous theology actually teaches that God causes some to be born, to burn in Eternity.

Behold · May 16, 2020

AlexDTX said:
Tell me what is "right doctrine"?

Paul

Behold · May 16, 2020

TLSITD said:
If that doctrinal issue was what you wanted to debate, maybe you should have just started a thread for that in the discussion and debate forum and left the tongues bit out of your question: "Why do some Christians believe that Christians can forfeit their salvation?" Then Christians of all kinds could answer you, Pentecostals included.

All Threads turn into rabbit trails...... its how it works, as all topics relate to all topics.
Its all good.

Behold · May 16, 2020

AlexDTX said:
Let's think about it. As you stated, "each heard in their own language". Does this mean each apostle and disciple spoke different languages so that each listener could hear the praises of God in their own language?

I have been in crowded rooms with many people talking, and, honestly, it is hard to understand any of them because there were so many. Of course in the midst of them I could hear those close to me, but not the others. So does this mean that each who heard in their own languages just so happened to be next to the one who spoke in their tongue?

Of course, with God all things are possible, but would it not make more sense that the miracle was not the tongues being in their language, but rather each person heard them all speaking in their own language. Their hearing was the miracle. The tongues spoken by the apostles were what Paul said in 1 Cor 14, their spirits praying without their minds understanding.

Pentecost is a Jewish situation. so, in Acts 2, you had "Jews" there......But not all of them spoke the same language/dialect..
God sent Peter to preach to them all, and Peter spoke only his tongue. So, God had to give him the "gift of foreign language" so that all the Jews there could Hear in THEIR Language.

Behold · May 16, 2020

HatGuy said:
This is not true.

"all" in this sense.. the law of averages. or, "the exception does not prove the RULE".

If 400 people are in a room, and 399 believe that God is dead, and one believes that God is alive... then "all" believe that God is dead, as the law of averages, or "the exception does not prove the rule".
I stated here that if you can find a pentecostal in a charismatic church who does not believe what His Denomination teaches about "lose your salvation" then this ONE does not prove the rule....but rather the Domination proves the fact.

Listen, you can find a Catholic that does not Pray to Mary, but, that does not Prove that the RCC does not teach that she is the Queen of Heaven, and Co-Mediator with Christ.

Behold · May 16, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Not true. I absolutely do not believe that one who is born again can lose their salvation. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974.

Are you a current member of a Pentecostal Denomination?
If so, would you tell me the name of your Denomination?

Why do all believers connected with "tongues".....

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