Why didn't Paul warn us about Hell?

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FineLinen

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Actually, I do know what the LOF is, it doesn't need disclosure.

Student: there is no aspect of the Glorious One that does not require disclosure. "And He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." ;)

The Lake of Fire is rooted in qei'oß. The essence of the Limne is qei'oß, and radiates with His breath {tyrpg -gophriyth}, and qei'on, again rooted in qei'oß.

"Then opened He their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures."

Opened= Dianoigo=

To open by drawing asunder.

To open thoroughly what had been closed.

Opening of the eyes, of the ears, of the mind.

To cause to understand a thing.
 
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FineLinen

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That is circular reasoning.

Yes, Student, very circular indeed. ;)

Fire is the destination of all creation, for our God is consuming fire & from Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. He is the Source, the Guide and the Goal of the ta panta!

And the Scriptures declare the all that originates in Theos, ends in Theos.
.
"I am A & W, Arche & tevloß..."

Arche=

Beginning, Origin, Person that commences, the active Cause.

tevloß =

The ending, the termination.

The limit at which a thing ceases to be.

Eternal.

That by which a thing is finished. Its close, aim, purpose.

The ending to which all things consummate. :holy:
 
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red77

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I think its great that we can at last have meaningful discussions about the Lake of Fire.

So what does everyone think the lake of fire is? I don't believe its hell.

No, It cant be hell if hell is thrown in there, I had a 'debate' (ahem) with a fundamentalist who believed hell was eternal and when I pressed him on this he finally answered saying that hell itself was a lake of fire...........and that adding one lake of fire to another one would end up with a bigger lake of fire..........I think its impossible to take it literally, especially with death being destroyed there as well, one thing that really hits about that passage is the symbol of death being destroyed, it also says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.............another poster rematked about the lOF being a symbol for the end of all things negative, not only is death destroyed but hell as well, if we normally think about 'hell' being a miserable suffering place or state of being then its all destroyed in the LOF, hence tieing in with the passage about all tears being wiped away and suffering will be no more for the old order of things will have passed away.............its certainly an interpretation that made me think, instead of being a place of torment it actually eradicates pain, whether being a symbol for god's all comsuming presence or not.............I certainly woulndt know for certain but it was an interesting take on the lOF IMO
 
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StudentoftheWord

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Yes, Student, very circular indeed. ;)

As I heard on CSI today,

"Some have made up their mind on their own conclusions and devise the questions to get the answer they want to support that conclusion."

I am sorry to say, I think you have fit this case. I would like to not deal with argumentum populam in which just because many UR teachers 'see' it the way you discussed, doesn't mean it is true. There are many fallacies I have addressed concerning Eby, L Ray Smith, Zander, and a few others when they never needed to use fallacy in the first place. One of the most fallacious activities is to quote each other to support a conclusion but never having true proof of the conclusion.

Can you forgive my skeptisim, I also believe in Universal Reconciliation, but I can prove the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with refinement, only loss and reward just as Scripture has said from the beginning and it will fit the model of consumate ending you have provided.

Believe me, there are people who don't believe in UR/CU who are not as critical as I am of this LOF doctrine, but there if I don't see it, it will be difficult to show this to those who don't even believe Jesus saved all. Saying ""Then opened He their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures." is a scape-goat and not of God. You are called to be a good workman and have a logical reason for the Hope that you believe. If you cannot provide an answer other than God will show us, then you should not be teaching anything in the first place.

I hope you understand and see this, I am not your enemy I am a friend who is asking you to step up your study and know your details.

In Grace and Truth,

Peace and Love,

Craig
 
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FineLinen

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There are many fallacies I have addressed concerning Eby, L Ray Smith, Zander, and a few others...

[move]"The true way to be humble is not to stoop till you are smaller then yourself, but to stand at your real height against some higher nature that will show you the real smallness of your greatness." -Phillips Brooks-[/move]
 
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Havahope

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I think its great that we can at last have meaningful discussions about the Lake of Fire.

So what does everyone think the lake of fire is? I don't believe its hell.
I believe the lake of fire is, and was created by the fall of "Babylon the great". (chapter 18) And I agree with Student of the Word when he says that the fire was not a fire of purification. For nowhere do we find in the scriptures that fire is ever a blessing, but is always a curse.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Well, the way I look at it is this....whether the LOF is for reward and loss, purification or chastisment....it is NOT a place of eternal torment for the lost. It is one of God's methods to bring about His will....that being the reconcilation and salvation of ALL MEN.


Note to Havahope. As a Preterist, we believe that "Babyon the Great" was apostate Israel (Jerusalem) and it fell in AD70. How does that tie in with what you believe about the LOF? Or do you have a different take on this?
 
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FineLinen

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For nowhere do we find in the scriptures that fire is ever a blessing, but is always a curse.

Really, then welcome to the Lord of glory who dwells in fire, and is fire. His essence is Love, Spirit, Light & Fire

[move]I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment is white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure white wool: his throne is like fiery flame, and his wheels burning fire. A flood of fire is proceeding and coming forth from before him; thousand thousands minister to him and ten thousand times ten thousand stand before him.[/move]
 
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FineLinen

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficient Agent

How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....

"Life"....Isa. 4:5

"Purification"....Matt. 3:3

"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27

"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being


And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5).

So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10).

His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6);

He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5).

At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words.

And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-

Really?

[move]For nowhere do we find in the scriptures that fire is ever a blessing, but is always a curse. [/move]
 
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FineLinen

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For nowhere do we find in the scriptures that fire is ever a blessing, but is always a curse.

The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen.....Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent, shoulder to shoulder.

LINK

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!
 
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Havahope

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EchoPneuma said:
Note to Havahope. As a Preterist, we believe that "Babyon the Great" was apostate Israel (Jerusalem) and it fell in AD70. How does that tie in with what you believe about the LOF? Or do you have a different take on this?
I also believe that "Babylon the Great" was apostate Israel, and that it fell in AD 70. But I have always veiwed the 20th chapter of Revelation, not as a continuation of events that ocurred in the preceding chapters, but rather as being somewhat of a synopsis, or a summary of the preceding chapters. So I believe that Rev. 20, - that is, "the devil that deceived them being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are", "the great white throne judgement" or "the dead, small and great, standing before God", and "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire" ocurred simultaneously with, or were contained within, the fall of "babylon the great".

I also believe that the whole of Revelation was addressed to the seven churches which were in Asia at the time of the Revelation, and were comprised mainly of those Jews of the diaspora. (See 1Peter 1:1) And it was to advise them of the spiritual things which the literal destruction of Jerusalem would signify.
 
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Maxster211

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Because hell is bogus. Paul never mentioned it when he was preaching to the unbelieving Athenians in the book of Acts either. Gee, seems like a big oversight not to even MENTION to the unbelieving Greeks in Athens that if they didn't repent and turn to God that they would burn in hell for eternity.

But he doesn't.....because it's bogus. All Paul says is that they will face judgement in righteousness one day. That's it.....because that is all there is....unless Paul didn't preach the whole truth to them.


Because he was preaching about Coming to Christ, not Damnation and Hell.
You're then denying Revelation by not believing in Hell because Revelation talks so exstensively on it, you can't deny it without denying part of the Bible.
 
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Maxster211

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I also believe that "Babylon the Great" was apostate Israel, and that it fell in AD 70. But I have always veiwed the 20th chapter of Revelation, not as a continuation of events that ocurred in the preceding chapters, but rather as being somewhat of a synopsis, or a summary of the preceding chapters. So I believe that Rev. 20, - that is, "the devil that deceived them being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are", "the great white throne judgement" or "the dead, small and great, standing before God", and "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire" ocurred simultaneously with, or were contained within, the fall of "babylon the great".

I also believe that the whole of Revelation was addressed to the seven churches which were in Asia at the time of the Revelation, and were comprised mainly of those Jews of the diaspora. (See 1Peter 1:1) And it was to advise them of the spiritual things which the literal destruction of Jerusalem would signify.


But those places were all real places, all of them found and documented, with litteral meanings to the analogies given to them all, that were supposed to be a spiritual stand point to every person who reads the letters. (I also think they're prophetical, but thats something else completely.) So it's for everyone.
Babylon the Great as the apostate of Jerusalem? If you mean that you believe it's the oposite by the Apostate then I agree, though not that it fell in A.D. 70.
 
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Havahope

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficient Agent

How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....

"Life"....Isa. 4:5

"Purification"....Matt. 3:3

"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27

"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being


And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5).

So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10).

His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6);

He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5).

At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words.

And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
Fine Linen :hug:
Be that as it may, we still find that His fire only curses and consumes the evil. It does not bless it.
 
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BillR

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If Paul is our Apostle and hell was a real literal place. Then it was his job to warn us.

If hell is so bad and our Creator didn't want us to go there, shouldn't all of His Apostles of done a better job warning us of this terrible fate? Instead it is barely mentioned. That alone should make one wonder.

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BillR

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Ducklow, your commentaries prove nothing. It is one man'sopinions. Jesus Himself SAID that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel. I choose to believe him over some commentator or so called "religious" scholar. If Jesus said it then that settles it for me. I don't need some modern day bible commentator to tell me that Jesus didn't mean what He said.

Paul was the ONLY apostle sent to the Gentiles....and he makes a big deal about the fact that he was the only apostle to minister the word of God to them....and Paul NEVER mentions hell or the LOF to Gentiles.

The message was ONLY for the Jews. It was a warning to THAT generation that crucified Jesus. That is all.

Post deleted

:wave:
 
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Kimberlyann

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What makes me wonder is have you read the Bible at all??:scratch: because all it talks about is sin, righteousness and judgement.

Do you think the Translator's did a perfect job translating the Greek and Hebrew?

Why don't you do a search and see if the you think the translator's got it right?

Get a Greek and Hebrew Concordance and look up every occurrence of the original words that are translated hell and study each one in the context and how translated.

Then you may begin to see for yourself what we are talking about.
 
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