Why didn't god forgive us without jeasus....what's changed?

[domi]

Jesus is the son of god aka god and he died to forgive our sins because when he was sent down by god *himself very confusing* it was because god was ready for forgive us. But if Jesus was god then why would he have to die to forgive us? If he had it in his mind to forgive us then why doesn't he just do that without having to sacrifice himself or n e thing else for that matter........ Talking about forgiving sins what sins have been forgiven and or changed science Jesus died for us. As far as i know from the nice life application bible aka the best bible on the face of the planet..... God punished us by making woman go though child birth and making them subordinate to men and making men work for a living.....which is exaclty what's still going on yah? so what's changed?

Ur little sister to the forums
-Domi

 

[Serapha]

Jesus is the son of god aka god and he died to forgive our sins because when he was sent down by god *himself very confusing* it was because god was ready for forgive us. But if Jesus was god then why would he have to die to forgive us? If he had it in his mind to forgive us then why doesn't he just do that without having to sacrifice himself or n e thing else for that matter........ Talking about forgiving sins what sins have been forgiven and or changed science Jesus died for us. As far as i know from the nice life application bible aka the best bible on the face of the planet..... God punished us by making woman go though child birth and making them subordinate to men and making men work for a living.....which is exaclty what's still going on yah? so what's changed?

Ur little sister to the forums
-Domi

Hi there!




Well, little sister... we need to talk.

Jesus is the son of god aka god and he died to forgive our sins because when he was sent down by god *himself very confusing* it was because god was ready for forgive us.

Only God can forgive sins, and in the Bible, Jesus said,

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Jesus didn't die to forgive our sins, He died that his blood might be the final sacrifice for sins.

But if Jesus was god then why would he have to die to forgive us? If he had it in his mind to forgive us then why doesn't he just do that without having to sacrifice himself or n e thing else for that matter........ Talking about forgiving sins what sins have been forgiven and or changed science Jesus died for us.

There is no question that Jesus was/is God... God has natural attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, eternal, and immutable and moral attributes of lovingkiness, holiness, righteous, just, merciful, loving, faithful and oh, so many more. Jesus has those same attributes that are only for "God"



And... ALL my sins have been forgiven since Jesus died for me and I took that first step of faith in believing what Jesus did and can do.

As far as i know from the nice life application bible aka the best bible on the face of the planet.

Well, I have to agree that the best translation is the one that translates into our lives.

God punished us by making woman go though child birth and making them subordinate to men and making men work for a living.....which is exaclty what's still going on yah? so what's changed?

Well, several things changed.

Salvation is no longer limited to the Jewish people, but to all, to the Jew, the Gentile, the slave, the free person, to men, and to women.

Everyone can be a saint, and everyone can be a priest... that changed from the old covenant.

So... God's got job opportunities for all... and He's got the infilling of the Holy Spirit to get the job done. That's changed from the Old Testament manifestations of the Spirit when the Spirit of God was given for a specific purpose and for a specific time. We have the indwelling and the infilling of the Holy Spirit all the time for direction, for learning, for discerning truth.


Now, I think I would ask you... what changed about you when you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?


~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

BTW...






Welcome to the forums!


~serapha~

 

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

He wants you to obey his commandments but he knows that we're all sinners. He is the most forgiving, loving God ever!! You can kill, steal, lie, cheat, and all sorts of stuff and just ask God to forgive you in humbleness and He will. Jesus created Adam and Eve. They had a choice between perfect earth (basically heaven or like heaven) and the other choice was evil. They decided they wanted to know everything instead of listening to God. Instead of making these people and the people produced by them - suffer judgment - Christ came to earth (from all His riches and heavenly paradise) (VOLUNTERILY) to die on a cross so that we wouldn't have to go thruogh the judgement that was fair. God is always fair. So, instead of passing judgment on US and THEM, He came and died on a cross to save us from our sins. He was beaten and whipped and stabbed and punched and kicked and hit and mocked and shamed and nailed to a cross and had sharp, peircing thorns around His head. He was so mutilated by the torture he (volunterily) recieved that the bible says you could not recognize who He was. The people back then had professional torturers and killers. He did this for us and all He asks in return is that we "believe on him"....and this is simply surrendering your life to him, give your life to him. Jesus has the purest and PERFECT love for us. This is something we know nothing of - unless He shows us. He doesn't love you like a family member, friend, or teacher - someone who will surely hurt your feelings, give up on you, or anything bad. His love is PERFECT. He loves you so much there is NO WAY you could even comprehend. God does not feel hatred at all. He says to love everyone - even your enemies. That's hard sometimes but He does it. ...because He is perfect in all ways. I love you Jesus!!

 

[StAnselm]

Serapha, what did you mean by this?

Jesus didn't die to forgive our sins, He died that his blood might be the final sacrifice for sins.

I would maintain passionately that Jesus died to forgive my sin - all my sins, past, present and future! But I don't quite know what you're getting at.

Domi, good questions. Just thinking about the first one, it's important to realise that if there was another way for God to save us, he would have taken that way -

Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." ... He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

(Matthew 26:36-39,42)

No, only the death of the eternal Son of God was sufficient to satisfy God's punishment against our sin. God's justice demands that sin be punished, but God's love caused him to become man and bear that punishment! And only he could.

In dying on the cross, Jesus experienced hell, so that we wouldn't have to!

 

[Tavita]

Hi Domi,
God couldn't just forgive us without a sacrifice, because we would never know or realise the impact or the terrible thing that sin is without someone or something having to pay for it. We need to see what sin really is, how offensive it is to God. It is so offensive that the 'justice' side of God, said someone has to pay. Don't you feel like that when someone greatly offends you and does something evil against you?... you want to see justice done?

God gave Adam the dominion (control or authority) in this world. When man sinned by listening to satan, he passed that authority over to satan and even came under the dominion of satan himself. He died spiritually, sin caused his communion and relationship with God to be cut off. Because God is a holy God and cannot tolerate sin in His presence, and God hates sin so much that if it's not taken out of the way, we will die spiritually and won't be allowed in heaven, then to pay for sin (punishment) God demands a sacrifice, a perfect sacrifice, with no blemish in it. Because if it had a blemish it shows that sin has affected it. Who would be a perfect sacrifice?.. none of us would do, we have so much sin, besides which, we are the ones that need saving out of that sin. That's why the animals He demanded to be sacrificed in the OT were to be perfect and without any blemish at all. These sacrifices were to show that in the future 'One' would come, the Messiah, to be the perfect sacrifice to take the punishment for our sins. God loved us so much He didn't want us to die and go to hell. So He sent His Son, Jesus, who was perfect and had no sin in Him, to die in our place. God literally placed all the sin in our lives on Jesus on the cross and Jesus took those sins into death with Him (and left them there), so that we would be free of them. So, when we repent (are deeply sorry, and decide to turn away from our sin) and believe in Jesus and His sacrifice for us, we are then washed and cleansed from all the sin in our lives by His blood (that was spilled in death on the cross). And when we approach God now, He doesn't see our sin anymore, He sees the blood of His perfect Son, which took away the sin.
God didn't punish us by making women go through childbirth and making us subordinate to man. That is a 'result' or 'consequence' of sin. (It's actually the 'pain' in childbirth... we would still have to give birth).
What sins are forgiven because of Jesus dying in our place?.... ALL sin.
When you are born again (repent and believe on Jesus) ALL your sin is forgiven, and you are set free of it. And each day you need to be filled with His Holy Spirit to give you the power not to sin again. But, if you do, because we all fail, then:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

Hope this helps ...

 

[domi]

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] lol that's alot of poats for one quetion lol and no blessing that's not cool hehehe no it's all good....thanks for all the asnwers.....however i find these to be quite confusing .....lol........this could take a while to get though.......i'm so over whellmed.....and then we have serpha here telling me that only god can forgive our sins and jeasus isn't god and then u say jeasus is god and now i'm confused out of my miind.....what is going on here!!!!!!!!! and btw i'm not chirstan i don't know what i am hence nondeminational......i'm 16.........i dunno what i want yet......thanks for all the love guys..... And i dunno what ur name is but u have a preaty buttyfly and i lv it btw but ur telling me that god was mad and he watned revenge basicly......and u asked me that if someone did something to me wouod i want to hurt them back well sure i would but that's a human emotion......not one of a all forgiving and powerfull god.

 

[rogsr]

God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are distinct yet One.

Analogy: The Father is a Spirit, meaning not of material flesh. The Son is the hand of the Father, He is the Agent of God. The Holy Spirit is the hand of the Son. From the Father comes the Son, and from the Father and Son comes the Holy Spirit.

This is what is called the Holy Trinity.

Men ultimately sin against God when we sin. And like in all things, there was justice to be served. God is ultimately Just and equitable so Justice had to be served. If God did not address the issue of sin, if He just let everyone do what they wanted with no consequence He would be unjust. So, the punishment God laid down for sin was death. However, God our Father loves us each like His most precious lamb, so He wanted to save us. And so He sent into the world His Agent, His Christ, to be sinless and thus be worthy to die for all sins. The Father accomplished this salvation in the Lord Jesus. From the Father and Lord Jesus Christ came the Holy Spirit, sanctifier of souls, the seed of immortality, the Life of God. By Faith we accept the salvation given to us from the Father that was accomplished in the Son, when we do this we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and given back what we lost when Man first sinned. Eternity.

Peace, and good luck with your journey. There is only one place to find peace on earth, it is in the Sacred Heart of the Lord, our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

[Tavita]

I'm sorry, I thought you were already a christian. Maybe this would have been better posted in the questions by non christians section.
As rogsr pointed out what you're really questioning is the 'justice' aspect of God. That is only one of His attributes (a quality or feature of a person). God isn't mad and vengeful. Let me put it this way.... what if something awful happened to a friend of yours. Say they get mugged walking along the street and are bashed so badly they die. Would you just say to the killer "It's ok, I forgive you", and walk on? Wouldn't you expect 'justice' to be done? You know, get them arrested and sent to jail forever? That part of you that wants justice done, is a part that God has put inside all of us... we are made in His image.
OK... God didn't want to condemn us and put us in Hell (prison) so He sent His Son to pay for our jail term and punishment. He hates sin so much and loves us so much, His Son took our place.
So now, because our sins are forgiven and wiped out, which leads us to be very thankful, if someone does something against us, like with your friend above, we forgive them because whether they believe in Jesus or not, they're sins are forgiven by Him too. They still need to meet the requirements of the land and have justice served on them though. You can be forgiven of sin but need to face the consequences (or the outcome) of that sin.
Maybe this is still further confusing you, I don't know. I hope you'll find the peace and love that only Jesus can give you anyway. And yes, the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God and is God as rofsr pointed out.
Bless you..

 

[Serapha]

and then we have serpha here telling me that only god can forgive our sins and jeasus isn't god and then u say jeasus is god and now i'm confused out of my miind.....

Domi,


Is English your mother tongue?


I never said that Jesus was not God... in fact, I said...


There is no question that Jesus was/is God


...Jesus has those same attributes that are only for "God"


Please go back and read that posting again.


~thanks~

 

[Serapha]

Serapha, what did you mean by this?


I would maintain passionately that Jesus died to forgive my sin - all my sins, past, present and future! But I don't quite know what you're getting at.

Jesus didn't die to forgive our sins, He died that his blood might be the final sacrifice for sins.

Hi there!



Jesus Christ forgave sins before his death on the cross. It wasn't necessary for him to die to forgive us our sins... He was already doing that before he died.


Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Lu 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Lu 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.



~serapha~

 

[StAnselm]

Jesus Christ forgave sins before his death on the cross. It wasn't necessary for him to die to forgive us our sins... He was already doing that before he died.

But surely he could only forgive those sins on the basis of his death! Surely he forgives sins because his sacrificial death is certain in the plan of God and his own determination.

 

[rogsr]

Srapha,

You're trying to say that Jesus' Blood was the final atonement for sin. Right? The sinless Man sacrificing himself for the sins of the world. Right?

You have me really confused here...




[/QUOTE]

 

[domi]

aclty that's where i put it in the first plae.......someone moved it........not my falt........yah enlgish is my first lunge......i rather arabic but......i can't choose so.........enlgish will have to do.......i'm srory but u guys r just like relay confusing me here..........i think i'm going back to my freind's forum......i's eaiser to understand......no effence but i find this to be like extremaly overwhelming........thanks for trying to help but........now i'm more conufsed........Everyone keeps controdicting everyone else.......and u say one thing and u say u didn't sya it but u did;..........whatveer i'm sorry but it's making me head spin......thaks for trying.......
-Domi

 

[rogsr]

I hear you. Theology and politics are about the same in that respect, in that, everyone has their own views on most topics.

Peace, and Good luck-

 

[domi]

Tavida

Let me put it this way.... what if something awful happened to a friend of yours. Say they get mugged walking along the street and are bashed so badly they die. Would you just say to the killer "It's ok, I forgive you", and walk on? Wouldn't you expect 'justice' to be done? You know, get them arrested and sent to jail forever? That part of you that wants justice done, is a part that God has put inside all of us... we are made in His image.
OK... God didn't want to condemn us and put us in Hell (prison) so He sent His Son to pay for our jail term and punishment. He hates sin so much and loves us so much, His Son took our place.

Hence my confusion

First ur asking me if my friend or a freind of mine got mugged and hurt would i want them to go to jail nd have justace be done well ya of coures i would who wouln't....and then u ask me to compare that to god.....yes......ok.....lets comapre....

Gid sends us jeasus.......jeasus is god's son........jeasus get abused in soooo many ways worse then getting mugged like getting hit or getting betaen and ultimently getting hung on the corss........but does jeasus say o i want justice for them.....no he says father plz forgive them because they don't know what they have done....and does god want justice for waht has been done to his son......well yah sure he does.......but he don't send those people to hell/prision........he finds it in his herat to forgive them.........that's my point......god is'nt about revenge.......god is about forgivenessa nd love....and god would never do something like that

Serepha

U confuse me the most of all........u say
Only God can forgive sins

Well jeausus is god so that shouln't be an issue.

I can't find everywhre u said it but u sad it many times....and frankly i'm quite verry confused

 

[Tavita]

Gid sends us jeasus.......jeasus is god's son........jeasus get abused in soooo many ways worse then getting mugged like getting hit or getting betaen and ultimently getting hung on the corss........but does jeasus say o i want justice for them.....no he says father plz forgive them because they don't know what they have done....and does god want justice for waht has been done to his son......well yah sure he does.......but he don't send those people to hell/prision........he finds it in his herat to forgive them.........that's my point......god is'nt about revenge.......god is about forgivenessa nd love....and god would never do something like that

Domi, this would be so true if Jesus was just walking along minding His own business, doing nothing. But the Father sent Jesus to die on the cross, on purpose, so He could pour out His anger and punishment on Him rather than us, and the purpose was so we could be saved. Wishy washy love is not part of the Father's attributes. Ever heard of the expression 'tough love'? If there is no justice in love, then there is no love at all.
Sorry we couldn't be of help to you, Domi, I hope all goes well for you and you find the answers you're looking for....

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Serapha]

Srapha,

You're trying to say that Jesus' Blood was the final atonement for sin. Right? The sinless Man sacrificing himself for the sins of the world. Right?

You have me really confused here...

[/QUOTE]
Hi there!



I recommend that you pick up a good doctrines book and read it.

I would recommend William Evans, "The Great Doctrines of The Bible".

In summary from the text,

The Scriptural Definition of Christ's Death

a. As a ransom
b. A propitiation
c. As a reconciliation
d. As a substitute.


If you have further questions, please send me a PM.

~thanks~

 

[domi]

*sigh* i just don't get it........it's not like there is n e thing worng witht hey way that ur explaining it just way to many explinations at conce......i dunno iof it's possible but if liek some person can answer my quetionn everyday or one person poats so i can read that and then someone else and i can read that andi can repond individaly instad of all at once....that would be MUCH eaiser for me......as for reading about someone eles option about the bible......i rather read it my self......and dreaw my own conclusions......
thanks agian
Domi

 

[Rafael]

Just read one at a time and take your time with each thing...if you want to. People are only trying to help, so just relax and help yourself at your own pace. God bless you as you seek knowedge of Him