Why did you choose your religious view?

[steve_bakr]

I didn't. Disbelief is the default position, and I've never been convinced otherwise. Not in day one of Ms. Heflin's Sunday School class, and not today.

Most 'god' concepts are logically contradictory. Logically contradictory things cannot - and therefor, do not - exist.

As for the ones that are at least internally consistent, I cannot know for certain whether they exist or not, but I have no good reason to suspect that they do.

I assume you mean 'people of other religions'.

Most of them keep it to themselves, so there is nothing to address. It's the relatively few who trespass philosophically or politically I take issue with.

There is a very common misconception that 'agnostic' occupies a sort of 'middle ground' between theism and atheism. It doesn't.

Gnostic/agnostic are distinctions pertaining to knowledge. Theist/atheist are distinctions pertaining to belief. They are not mutually exclusive, and can overlap.

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared. Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God. Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God. So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared.

All that is meant by 'default position' is that you are born without the cognitive faculties for belief in any respect. There is nothing to stop you from developing them later.

Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God.

Who's 'we'? I never believed for one second.

Rather, I would say we are pattern-seeking mammals, so I don't deny there are certain propensities that often manifest themselves in supernatural belief (not limited to god belief). That is not true of everyone, though.

Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God. So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

So?

Even granting that there is such thing as a 'correct' god concept, the theist/atheist distinction only exists because of the prevalence of god belief. If belief in Bigfoot were as prevalent, we'd need a word to distinguish the non-Bigfoot-believers, too.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared.

That seems ludicrously wrong to me. Why would that be the case?

New ideas appear all the time throughout history: monarchy, feudalism, democracy, capitalism, communism, quantum mechanics.

Why would a lack of belief in something prevent that belief from appearing?

Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God.

Nope.

So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

This is not the case. I do not believe in any gods at all. There is no one concept of a particular god that I reject. I reject them all.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. A default position is not a limitation on belief.

Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God.

I have no reason to believe that I do. Indeed, since you claim that this is "inherent", I have every reason to believe that there are at least people, such as myself, who are exceptions.

Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God.

Atheism is defined in relation to god concepts. However, my worldview is not defined in relation to either atheism or god concepts. Atheism is merely a footnote to my worldview, not its essence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Willie T]

I liked the people, and no one - not even the preacher - tried to act "religious".

 

[steve_bakr]

All that is meant by 'default position' is that you are born without the cognitive faculties for belief in any respect. There is nothing to stop you from developing them later.

Who's 'we'? I never believed for one second.

Rather, I would say we are pattern-seeking mammals, so I don't deny there are certain propensities that often manifest themselves in supernatural belief (not limited to god belief). That is not true of everyone, though.

So?

Even granting that there is such thing as a 'correct' god concept, the theist/atheist distinction only exists because of the prevalence of god belief. If belief in Bigfoot were as prevalent, we'd need a word to distinguish the non-Bigfoot-believers, too.

The Catholic response might be that the orientation towards God is still there unthematically, even though you may not be aware of it.

And the comparison of God with bigfoot is weak philosophically and, I believe, bravado.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

The Catholic response might be that the orientation towards God is still there unthematically, even though you may not be aware of it.

I believe you believe that.

And the comparison of God with bigfoot is weak philosophically

Not in regard to the point I was making.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared. Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God. Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God. So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

According to other theists, you have an incorrect concept of God as well.

 

[steve_bakr]

According to other theists, you have an incorrect concept of God as well.

Granted that may be true in some instances. I don't claim to have possession of the definitive concept of God, as I believe God to be a Holy Mystery which finite beings cannot grasp in its entirety.

 

[quatona]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared.

Doesn´t follow.

Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God.

Well, such blank assertions do not make for a good discussion.

Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God.

No. It´s defined in relation to god-beliefs, to god-concepts, to dogmas. I´m talking to believers about their ideas, not to Gods.
I´m not a theist (I´m not a Christian, I´m not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu...) - that´s what, for all intents and purposes, "I am an a-theist" tells you.

So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

I, the atheist, react to god concepts that are presented to me. That´s why "God? What do you mean??" needs to be answered first, and that´s why non-concepts like "Holy Mystery" leave me indifferent.

 

[steve_bakr]

Doesn´t follow.
Well, such blank assertions do not make for a good discussion.
No. It´s defined in relation to god-beliefs, to god-concepts, to dogmas. I´m talking to believers about their ideas, not to Gods.
I´m not a theist (I´m not a Christian, I´m not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu...) - that´s what, for all intents and purposes, "I am an a-theist" tells you.
I, the atheist, react to god concepts that are presented to me. That´s why "God? What do you mean??" needs to be answered first, and that´s why non-concepts like "Holy Mystery" leave me indifferent.

Well, sorry, but God is always going to have an element of mystery because the finite intellect cannot fully grasp the Infinite. That might leave you ostensibly indifferent; for me, it is the basic point of departure for my study of theology.

 

[quatona]

Well, sorry, but God is always going to have an element of mystery because the finite intellect cannot fully grasp the Infinite. That might leave you ostensibly indifferent; for me, it is the basic point of departure for my study of theology.

You tell me what it leaves you with, and vice versa. Let´s leave it at that. Don´t try to explain to me what I believe.
Thanks.

 

[steve_bakr]

You tell me what it leaves you with, and vice versa. Let´s leave it at that. Don´t try to explain to me what I believe.
Thanks.

Sorry, I believe that every person is given an orientation towards the Infinite called the supernatural existential.

 

[Rawtheran]

This is perhaps not much of a discussion, but regardless I have a few questions for everyone that I would want to be answered.

(Disclaimer - These questions are NOT intended to discourage anyone's belief, I'm just interested in getting different answers from different people. My answers are not intended to offend anyone either, I've tried not to and hopefully, it doesn't.)

1. Why did you choose your view?
For example, if you are a Christian, why did you choose Christian over the so many religions in the world? If you are an Atheist, why so?

2. (Skip if this is already answered in the first question) What makes you certain of your beliefs, if you are?

3. What do you think of a) people of the other religions, b) agnostics and c) atheists? [Feel free to add opinions of other views or a specific religion as well, here]

4. Do you think others should join your view, and (both if yes and if not) why?

To make things fairer I'll answer these questions myself.

1. I was a Catholic as I was raised in a Catholic family but eventually doubted it, but I know there's no way to either prove nor disprove religion, and I did experience some weird things that didn't make much sense, so I became an Agnostic. It can't be either proved nor disproved that God and/or magic exists, and I don't know if the truth is they can actually be explained through science as well or not; I simply don't know, and though I take to consideration what others believe, I do not truly believe in them, as they cannot be proved. Agnostic is answering the questions like "Does god exist? Does magic exist?" with "I don't know." I can't claim that I actually know something unless it can be proved.

2. This is perhaps already answered in #1; because it seems clear to me that the claims can not be proved nor disproved, at least so far.

3.
a) What I think of religious people: I think there are several kinds of religious people. There are the respectable, open-minded ones that would gladly participate in a discussion with people with different views. It looks to me that there are many of these here in this forum which is why I came here.
There are also the second type of religious people, which seems the most common one that I see in my daily life though I could be wrong. These are the kinds of people that does what is to be expected from their religion (such as going to church), and they often accept people from different views as well, but they don't seem like they really think much of their beliefs, they don't take it too seriously. They don't ponder much, they just live life normally. I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing.
Then there are the extremists who thinks everyone else are wrong and they are right. I don't think I need to talk of this one, pretty much everyone including people of their own religion dislikes them.

b) Agnostic is what I am so I don't have much to say.

c) Atheists. I can understand why they choose not to believe in God nor magic, as it can seem like the logical thing to do. Like everyone else I respect them as long as they don't go bashing the other beliefs without a proper discussion.

4. I guess everyone obviously won't mind if people join their views. I don't really mind if people have different views however as long as they are open-minded.

1. I actually researched many different religions for quite sometime before I became a Christian. Really I prayed to whatever or whoever the true God was to reveal himself, and over a period of a couple months God revealed himself to me, and I received him.

2. Honestly I would just have to say personal experience, and just living and seeing things, and continuing to see things.

3. They have the right to believe the way that they do after all they have free will.

4. Do I believe that everyone should believe in Christ? Absolutely, but again everyone is entitled to their opinions. Why? Because in my belief the Blood of Jesus is the only way to Heaven, and reconciliation with God.

 

[Cearbhall]

Well, sorry, but God is always going to have an element of mystery because the finite intellect cannot fully grasp the Infinite.

This is what I don't understand. How does this provide evidence for the Abrahamic God? You could say that to support anything.

Sorry, I believe that every person is given an orientation towards the Infinite called the supernatural existential.

It seems arrogant to express that to a person.

 

[Ken-1122]

1. Why did you choose your view?
For example, if you are a Christian, why did you choose Christian over the so many religions in the world? If you are an Atheist, why so?

I used to be a theist but after research, I realized I was wrong and became atheist.

2. (Skip if this is already answered in the first question) What makes you certain of your beliefs, if you are?

Of all the religions I became familiar with, none of them sounds realistic to me.

3. What do you think of a) people of the other religions, b) agnostics and c) atheists? [Feel free to add opinions of other views or a specific religion as well, here]

My thoughts on Theists: Because I used to be theist, I know what it is like to have so much of your life invested in theism so I can understand why they will insist on believing that way

Agnostic: Many people seem to think agnostic is an between point of atheism vs theism. I disagree; I believe theism and atheism is about what you believe, not what you can prove. Agnostic is about what you know; or whether or not you can prove something to be true; a completely different question

4. Do you think others should join your view, and (both if yes and if not) why?

I believe more people should become atheist because I believe theism is untrue. For society, I prefer the bitter truth over a sweet lie any day.

Ken

 

[Cearbhall]

If disbelief were the default, then belief in God would not have appeared. Instead, we have an inherent, if unthematic, orientation towards the Holy Mystery or God. Even Atheism itself--a-theism--is defined in relation to God. So, even the atheist has a concept of God (even if incorrect), which defines what he does not believe in.

Actually, atheism is defined in relation to all deities. The Abrahamic God is one of thousands. If that's how you want to think of it, yes, we have a concept of that god, but it's no different than the concept that you and I have of every other god.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Sorry, I believe that every person is given an orientation towards the Infinite called the supernatural existential.

All I need to refute this view is to have knowledge of at least one person who does not have orientation toward the 'supernatural'. As it happens, I do - that person is me.

By predicating your position on what I believe, which only I know, you have effectively granted me certain knowledge that your position may be dismissed out of hand.

In other words, your assertion implicitly places me in the position to know that your assertion is false.

An objection anticipated: You can always assert that I am either lying or 'suppressing the truth' as Romans 1 would put it, but again, that's the beauty of it - you are not actually in any position to know that, and you never will be. I am, and the assertion itself has granted me that position.

I do so enjoy self-refuting arguments.

 

[quatona]

Sorry, I believe that every person is given an orientation towards the Infinite called the supernatural existential.

Yes, for some reason you need to believe that. I believe that every person is given an orientation towards identifying this reason.