Why did the early Christians hate Democracy?

[timothyu]

unless the government of man comes in conflict with the Kingdom of God.

And which one doesn't. I know of not one that ever put the will of the Father ahead of their own and loved all as self.

Sure, I get that you're arguing we shouldn't have anything to do with the government. But I don't recall Jesus telling any Roman soldiers to stop being soldiers.

No but he said be who you have to be for the poor and downtrodden will have their day when those who
oppress them will lose all. Like I said, don't rock the boat and love all as self. You'll notice His followers were primarily the oppressed, the slaves, servants poor anf women of the day.

So I'm not persuaded that we should have no part in government.

God's governance yes, man's no. But it doesn't stop us from dealing with them as humans. Jesus wasn't dealing or dining with them in an official capacity. I have a number of everyday friends who were/are politicians of all levels (and they are an insecure and lost lot)

 

[Not David]

You were in a very atypical group. Americans never cease to argue about politics. Just look at the CF American Politics forum

I mean, people online says a lot of things they don’t say in public.

 

[timothyu]

I mean, people online says a lot of things they don’t say in public.

I've started saying lol out in public.

 

[Nathan Arrand]

Hello everyone! I'm new here. This is my first post. I made a video about why the early Christians hated democracy and have provided a link. I welcome your comments! Show me how I'm wrong!

Israel under King Saul and King David were both appointed by God - yet still there was sin in the camp! We wait true theocracy - were God reigns. We wait for the king of kings and lord of \Lords to rule without sin. That would be the best!

Democracy has many pitfalls in this fallen world.

Should believers be involved in government. Definitely - God gives gifts and abilities to men - some to administer and govern etc. If you don't feel "called" or "gifted" to it, that is fine as well! We cannot judge what other people are doing.

Should we vote. In my opinion, "Yes." All it takes for evil men to prosper is for good men to do nothing"

Bless you all

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

Don't forget that God explicitly prohibited a kingdom style of government for Israel. Then they went and chose a king anyway, who went on to do exactly the bad things that God warned them would happen. Yet, as often happens, God took that evil, rebellious act, and turned it to good.

A Republican Democracy was never explicitly condemned, though one could argue plausibly that rebellion against King George III was a violation of Romans 13. Yet here we are, living under a system that some claim was heavily influenced by the Presbyterian form of Church government which prevailed in England for a brief time in the mid-1600s. I agree with Winston Churchill: A democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest. (Caveat: a monarchy led by Christ Himself would be far better. But a theocracy led by anybody with no direct, provable mandate from God such as Moses had would be far worse. I'll stick with what we have now, for the time being.)

 

[JIMINZ]

Romans 13 New King James Version (NKJV)
Submit to Government
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

That's all well and good, I don't disagree with anything Paul said, but there was nothing written which spoke to the issue of a Christian voting.

Therefore, I stand by my original statement,
"my point was Christians should not Vote, period."

 

[JIMINZ]

It's pretty simple. Things that the Bible doesn't forbid are acceptable.

All things are lawful, but all things do not edify,.........the Christian.

Your arguing a physical worldly position, when you have a King and Lord you serve as a Christian, no vote for a child of God is needed in the physical realm, the Kingdom of God overrules in the affairs of men.

 

[Tom 1]

Hello everyone! I'm new here. This is my first post. I made a video about why the early Christians hated democracy and have provided a link. I welcome your comments! Show me how I'm wrong!

Democracy was a pretty limited idea at the time. I doubt people gave it much thought.

 

[shagsnacks]

Israel under King Saul and King David were both appointed by God - yet still there was sin in the camp! We wait true theocracy - were God reigns. We wait for the king of kings and lord of \Lords to rule without sin. That would be the best!

Democracy has many pitfalls in this fallen world.

Should believers be involved in government. Definitely - God gives gifts and abilities to men - some to administer and govern etc. If you don't feel "called" or "gifted" to it, that is fine as well! We cannot judge what other people are doing.

Should we vote. In my opinion, "Yes." All it takes for evil men to prosper is for good men to do nothing"

Bless you all

Very good comment! I think I agree, but it sounds like you're a little more in favor of democracy than me. I'm not against voting, of course, in a democracy. I just think that there are a lot better systems of governments than democracy. But the best system of government is largely dependent on the morality of society. The reason I'm in favor of an empire/monarchy is because of the moral decay of our society. Keep in mind that Israel wasn't a monarchy until Saul, and God told them they didn't really want a king when they demanded it of him. Why did he give them a king? I think it's because of their moral decay. It's because society at large failed to recognize him as their true king. So he allowed them to have an Earthly king to be his servant, to lead the people back to him.

I think founding father John Adams said it best concerning the system of government they designed.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

 

[JIMINZ]

It's not "one or the other",

Sure it is.

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

unless the government of man comes in conflict with the Kingdom of God.

That is the problem, the Government of man is, continually in conflict with the Kingdom of God.

Part of the Kingdom of God includes submission to authorities, because God has put them in their place.

Submitting to the Government God has put in place, is not the same as Voting to place someone into a position in Government of your choosing.

Besides, if God has in fact placed people in Government, what would be the purpose of Voting in the first place.

I don't recall Jesus telling any Roman soldiers to stop being soldiers. They were part of the government.

Sure a Roman Soldier technically was part of the Government, just as someone in the Military today is, but none of them, then or now were Voted into a position in Government of Representing the people.

And Jesus dined with politicians, (publicans). So I'm not persuaded that we should have no part in government.

There is a big difference between eating with someone and Voting for them, I do not believe Jesus had a Voters Registration Card no matter how many Politicians, or Publicans he ate with.

Are you under the impression that just because Jesus ate with someone, He was advocating Voting for them, when the Vote was not available to Him?

I think we should be wherever we can do the most good.

The best place for a Christian to be where he can do the most good is, in his prayer closet on his knees.

 

[timothyu]

Therefore, I stand by my original statement,
"my point was Christians should not Vote, period."

The politicians could draw straws like the Apostles. Would cut down on them being bought by campaign contributors also.

 

[timothyu]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People.

Meaning they were more willing to be governed by the land owners as they were already beholden to the clergy?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Umm, well that and that Plato had a significant influence on early Christian thought. And, Plato hated democracy.

Considering Plato was 500 plus years BEFORE Christianity existed and there were not Greek Scholars in the early church. I would have to simply disagree with this.

 

[shagsnacks]

Sure it is.

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.




That is the problem, the Government of man is, continually in conflict with the Kingdom of God.




Submitting to the Government God has put in place, is not the same as Voting to place someone into a position in Government of your choosing.

Besides, if God has in fact placed people in Government, what would be the purpose of Voting in the first place.




Sure a Roman Soldier technically was part of the Government, just as someone in the Military today is, but none of them, then or now were Voted into a position in Government of Representing the people.




There is a big difference between eating with someone and Voting for them, I do not believe Jesus had a Voters Registration Card no matter how many Politicians, or Publicans he ate with.

Are you under the impression that just because Jesus ate with someone, He was advocating Voting for them, when the Vote was not available to Him?




The best place for a Christian to be where he can do the most good is, in his prayer closet on his knees.

Wow! Ok. Can't say I agree with you but it's amazing how specific a world view you have.

 

[timothyu]

Wow! Ok. Can't say I agree with you but it's amazing how specific a world view you have.

Consider that that was Jesus' view and He is supposed to be what Christianity is all about. Those who deviate are not of the Kingdom.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

[JIMINZ]

Wow! Ok. Can't say I agree with you but it's amazing how specific a world view you have.

Here is another aspect of what a Christian should be doing, besides Voting.

Mic. 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

Consider that that was Jesus' view and He is supposed to be what Christianity is all about. Those who deviate are not of the Kingdom.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

This is a good list of Bible passages. All good. Especially James.

The question becomes whether one can be active in secular politics without being a friend of the world. I once had a classmate in Bible college who argued that it was wrong for the Separatists on the Mayflower (not Puritans; they came later) to set up a civil government. He said that they should have brought unbelievers along to rule the colony. I didn't (and don't) agree with that view, but you can't really prove that it's wrong (any more than you can prove that life isn't really just a dream).

I respect your view, and I trust you respect my believing differently, yet still being convinced that I am doing God's will to the best of my understanding.

 

[timothyu]

The question becomes whether one can be active in secular politics without being a friend of the world.

Certainly if one acts more in the manner of an ambassador.. in this case of the governance of the Father. Look what happened to Christianity when instead of staying separate and acting as an ambassador, it instead rejoined the world of man and built itself upon the foundation of tradition human governance. It sold out the Kingdom of God (Jesus' Gospel) for a kingdom of their own built upon the principles of man. It whored itself to the human construct and eventually became a world power itself in the tradition of man, not the Kingdom.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

Certainly if one acts more in the manner of an ambassador.. in this case of the governance of the Father. Look what happened to Christianity when instead of staying separate and acting as an ambassador, it instead rejoined the world of man and built itself upon the foundation of tradition human governance. It sold out the Kingdom of God (Jesus' Gospel) for a kingdom of their own built upon the principles of man. It whored itself to the human construct and eventually became a world power itself in the tradition of man, not the Kingdom.

It is easy to imagine a righteous and consistent set of actions that conform to Biblical principles. It is much, much harder to carry them out in practice. I have read in Christian publications the opinion that the worst thing that ever happened to the Christian church was when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, thus making the Church and the State partners. The university from which that publication came is now a strong and vocal supporter of the Republican Party, and they don't seem to see the slightest hypocrisy in it.

I guess that with institutions, just as with individuals, what you hear from the pulpit on Sundays can be easily forgotten as soon as you drive away from the parking lot.

 

[timothyu]

The university from which that publication came is now a strong and vocal supporter of the Republican Party, and they don't seem to see the slightest hypocrisy in it.

That figures. But then we get the same sort of thing from governments and those who often promote themselves as champions of a cause are themselves causing the trouble behind the scenes, like those protectors of children caught up in child trafficking.