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OntheDL
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If the Adventists were right that the Saturday-Sunday is a dividing issue, then why should any 'current' Sunday worshipper care or take notice of which side they are?
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Question: I seem to see this idea of the little horn power...which is interpreted as being the Pope or the Papacy...of "thinking to change times and law", as pertaining to the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday. Well isn't it necessary for everyone ELSE to think they did so as well, esspecially us Sundaykeepers? But I can't seem to find any Sundayworshippers who seem to care what the Papacy claims to have done, or give them any kind of credit for the "act".
Well Onthe DL, I think that's the problem...no one I know thinks the Adventists are "right" about the Sabbath-Sunday being any kind of "dividing" issue! I mean I'm sure it can be if you WANT it to be. But I have NEVER heard, in my many years of Sunday worship, some disparaging sermon...or even remark for that matter, about Sabbathkeepers who want to keep the Sabbath. And if we DID have a problem with it, we'd have to look no further than our representative Sabbathkeepers, the Seventh Day Baptist! We LOVE how they have stood for the Sabbath Truth, not only here in America, but also everywhere else they have gone. What I find to be interesting is the fact they DO NOT agree with Adventism on the "dividing" nuances of the Sabbath, esspecially the "Seal of God/Mark of the Beast" thing which they reject as unscriptural. But they continue to be everybit as dedicated to witnessing about the Sabbath...just like you, and we honor and RESPECT that witness...just like with YOU.
Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century.
Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, weBarnabas(135)
Onthe DL...I seem to remember several years ago that a particular Seventh Day Adventist Church in Florida didn't seem to care for my "opinions" on "Adventist belief" either. As a matter of fact, they cared so little for it that they told me not to come back! And interestingly, I seem to remember discussing with great passion, the supposed "change" of the Sabbath to Sunday from a Baptist perspective. Consequently, the Pope doesn't get the credit in our book. We believe it was because of the impact and the significance of the Resurrection ITSELF, as well as seeing the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the day was "changed"...or I'd rather say, "victoriously observed." Documents written by Barnabas(135), and Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Did it take the place of the Sabbath? No, and no one says it did! That was not the purpose. Even your most learned and emminent theologian on the Sabbath, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi made a point to mention 2nd century Sunday observance in his "Endtime Issues" Number 87, as a way of correcting traditional Adventist teaching, (and Ellen White), that Sunday worship came about in the Fourth Century or later. Well, that Adventist Church in Florida didn't care for me pointing all this out, while taking up "valuable Sabbath School time". But it's cool. I'm off to another thread...just don't tell them I'm coming!
I attended and was baptized in a Baptist church. Before that I went to Non-denominational and Pentecostal churches. After I learned about the sabbath, I didn't sit in their Sunday school classes and tell them how wrong they are. Neither did I go to Baptist or Pentecostal subforums to shove down their throats that their beliefs are unbiblical. I don't have problems with others believe in different doctrines. I'm just glad I found what I believe is the truth. We each walk our own paths and in the end answer to the Lord individually.
Well Onthe DL, I think that's the problem...no one I know thinks the Adventists are "right" about the Sabbath-Sunday being any kind of "dividing" issue! I mean I'm sure it can be if you WANT it to be. But I have NEVER heard, in my many years of Sunday worship, some disparaging sermon...or even remark for that matter, about Sabbathkeepers who want to keep the Sabbath. And if we DID have a problem with it, we'd have to look no further than our representative Sabbathkeepers, the Seventh Day Baptist! We LOVE how they have stood for the Sabbath Truth, not only here in America, but also everywhere else they have gone. What I find to be interesting is the fact they DO NOT agree with Adventism on the "dividing" nuances of the Sabbath, esspecially the "Seal of God/Mark of the Beast" thing which they reject as unscriptural. But they continue to be everybit as dedicated to witnessing about the Sabbath...just like you, and we honor and RESPECT that witness...just like with YOU.
Onthe DL...I seem to remember several years ago that a particular Seventh Day Adventist Church in Florida didn't seem to care for my "opinions" on "Adventist belief" either. As a matter of fact, they cared so little for it that they told me not to come back! And interestingly, I seem to remember discussing with great passion, the supposed "change" of the Sabbath to Sunday from a Baptist perspective. Consequently, the Pope doesn't get the credit in our book. We believe it was because of the impact and the significance of the Resurrection ITSELF, as well as seeing the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the day was "changed"...or I'd rather say, "victoriously observed." Documents written by Barnabas(135), and Justin Martyr(150) indicate that Sunday worship was the well known, established practice of the Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Did it take the place of the Sabbath? No, and no one says it did! That was not the purpose. Even your most learned and emminent theologian on the Sabbath, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi made a point to mention 2nd century Sunday observance in his "Endtime Issues" Number 87, as a way of correcting traditional Adventist teaching, (and Ellen White), that Sunday worship came about in the Fourth Century or later. Well, that Adventist Church in Florida didn't care for me pointing all this out, while taking up "valuable Sabbath School time". But it's cool. I'm off to another thread...just don't tell them I'm coming!
Respectfully dear friendDontheBaptist:
I sorry they ask you not to come back. What I would have asked you to do is to show where in the Bible did Yahweh or Yashua give a direct order that They changed the Sabbath.
Hmmm, How much creditability do you give to Catholic claims on issues concerning their apostolic authority?? (repeat, repeat) No further comment.Also you may not give credence to the Catholic Church but History prove without a doubt that Constantine the Great change the day and later under the Roman Catholic Church it was an degree under death my friend.
I dont see Don putting down the Sabbath. I see him repeating that the Baptists are proud to recocognized the Seventh Day Baptists claims about the sabbath.Baptist's did not start until here in the USA under Roger William who was put out by the Puritans and came to Conn. I urge you to please read your history before putting down the truth of the Sabbath my friend.
Actually the pope did changed the Sabbath to Sunday.
Lets' see what they said about it...
"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908
"Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
A. By the very act of changing the sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power." --- The Douay Catechism (An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine) of 1649
"Q. What warrant have you for keeping the Sunday, preferably to the ancient Sabbath, which was the Saturday?
A. We have for it the authority of the Catholic Church, and apostolical tradition.
Q. But has the Church a power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. The commandments of God, as far as they contain his eternal law, are unalterable and indispensable; but as to whatever was only ceremonial, they cease to oblige, since the Mosaic law was abrogated by Christ's death. Hence, as far as the commandment obliges us to set aside some part of our time for the worship and service of our Creator, it is an unalterable and unchangeable precept of the eternal law, in which the Church cannot dispense: but for as much as it prescribes the seventh day in particular for this purpose, it is no more than a ceremonial precept of the old law, which obligeth not Christians. And therefore, instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed in the old law, the Church has prescribed the Sundays and holydays to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.---Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church, by the Right Rev. Dr. Richard Challoner
"Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?" ---A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York
"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. It could not have been otherwise as none in those days would have dreamed of doing anything in matters spiritual and ecclesiastical and religious without her. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things". ---Letter to Cardinal Gibbons, November 11, 1895, from C.F. Thomas.
"The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." --- The Catholic Record, London, Ontario Canada, September 1, 1923
"The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate (change) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." --- Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop.
The reason? I think the quotes already addressed it...
have you ever think hard about this verse;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
it is clear and been prophesied that there will be sudden change of the laws, and one of that is the commandment of God which was the SABBATH..
Who came up with the questions that made you decide that only the SDA have the right answers?Thank you, question answered. I want to add, the reason I became an adventist is their answers to my questions are always supported by bible text, and "why" questions supported by historical documents. I have yet to get a "well, that is just what we do" answer from an adventist!
I dare you to show what scriptures made you a believer?
Originally Posted by numlock321
have you ever think hard about this verse;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
it is clear and been prophesied that there will be sudden change of the laws, and one of that is the commandment of God which was the SABBATH..
After Constantine changed the sabbath to sunday, what happened for a time and time and dividing of times under his hand? How long is that anyway?
It is 1260 prophetic days or 1260 years....
Whatever you say.
You ask for an explanation, twice, to the meaning of something and this is your response? Doesn't appear like a teachable spirit to me.... you'll have to get others on here to answer your questions if you don't like mine...
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