Why did Jesus raise up Paul ...?

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Tychicum

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He had 12 perfectly good fully trained hand picked men for the job.

Why take that great enemy of the small band of believers ... Saul ... one who had persecuted, imprisoned, and yes stood there for the public execution of Stephen?

Why make him spokesman?

Between Paul and his traveling companion Luke they wrote 2/3 of the New Testament ... at least.

What ever happened to Thaddaeus or Bartholomew?

As a matter of fact ... there aren't actually many folks who can rhyme off the list of the 12 completely unaided. No cheating ...

How come almost everyone can list the 7 dwarfs but not the 12 apostles?

Why is it that Peter's contribution to the Scripture is so very small and Paul's so large?

All of those Peter hypers out there ... is it simply because Peter didn't have a good publicist? Paul was a better writer?

Why?

Was it perhaps God's plan?

Why?



.
 

Tychicum

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It is interesting that they replaced Judas by lot. But by Acts 10 they apparently didn't replace Israel's 12 when James was killed.

The 12 became 11.

Israel's distinction as God's chosen was being set aside ...

I believe God chose Saul BECAUSE he was as Paul later explained "God's greatest enemy". Because he was Roman and a Jew ...

Now this didn't come as some kind of reaction by God ... it was all in the plans from before the world began.

But you can see the turning of the page ...

.
 
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Apollos1

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Is there a verse that says Paul was "raised up" ???

The expression is used in refernce to Christ being "raised up" (ei. resurrection) and even Pharaoh was "raised up".

But is this expression used of Paul? Or are some trying to make Paul's position as an Apostle sound of greater importance than it really is?

We need to follow God - rather than a man.

(Unless that man is Christ...)
 
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Tychicum

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Is there a verse that says Paul was "raised up" ???


The expression is used in reference to Christ being "raised up" (ei. resurrection) and even Pharaoh was "raised up".


But is this expression used of Paul? Or are some trying to make Paul's position as an Apostle sound of greater importance than it really is?
Interesting.



No I probably used that phrase as a description of my own and not a "quote".



I am Guilty as charged.



As to the rest of your statement is worth commenting on.

Paul greatly promoted the idea that his position was very high ... almost to the point that some might accuse him of bragging I suppose. He said for example ...

Rom 11:13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office

We need to follow God - rather than a man.

(Unless that man is Christ...)



Odd as it sounds ... Paul may disagree with your statement.



Paul said by following Paul ... we were following Jesus.



Paul is the only Apostle which actually said "follow me".

Several times ... as a matter of fact.

For example ...

1Co 4:16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

and even ...

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Now of course he meant "he" was an example ... but the use of the phrase is legitimate.

Phi 3:17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Christ actually made Paul "a pattern" ...

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for apattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.



I'm sure that is never actually preached from a pulpit so it does sound "different" to many folks ...



.
 
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heymikey80

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What you're looking at is what's preserved of writings from the Apostles to the churches.

Paul's a prolific writer who founded many western churches.

Peter's work was largely in churches and regions that Paul was sent from. Those regions underwent a horrific war of extermination around 70 AD, and again in 135 AD.

You might just as well muse on why the largest denomination in the world is ... Roman Catholicism.

It doesn't make the Pope the head of the church in this dispensation.

It only makes his church circumstantially bigger.

Remember what Paul himself said about remnants. Quantity isn't what matters -- God's choice is what matters.

And God doesn't have to answer us as to why. And to assume a reason why in God's silence is to put an answer in God's mouth -- which He may come to deny with a certain ... vehemence, if Judaism's experience is any example (1 Cor 10).

"The Spirit moves where He wills, and you don't know where it came from or where it's going."
 
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SpiritandPower

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Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The calling of the 12 had to do with God's prophetic plan for Israel. I believe Paul was made Apostle to the gentiles and not Peter was to illustrate that what he was doing in the world was not building on or adding to a previous dispensation, but starting a new and very different one!

 
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yeshuasavedme

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Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The calling of the 12 had to do with God's prophetic plan for Israel. I believe Paul was made Apostle to the gentiles and not Peter was to illustrate that what he was doing in the world was not building on or adding to a previous dispensation, but starting a new and very different one!

This is teaching a false Paul with a false gospel.

So why did God raise up Hudsen Taylor to the Chinese?
Why Spurgeon to England?
Why Wesley? Why Whitfield?
Why Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones?
Why Corrie Ten-Boom?
Why Bruchko to the hidden tribe of the Amazon jungle in the last century?
Why anyone at anytime to anywhere?

Because He chooses His vessels to spread His One Way to all tribes and tongues -of which Paul, alone reached very few, but which the Church as a body empowered with the Spirit to go, went, from Pentecost to now and is still going to all tribes and tongues in all the world until the end of this age.
 
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SpiritandPower

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This is teaching a false Paul with a false gospel.

So why did God raise up Hudsen Taylor to the Chinese?
Why Spurgeon to England?
Why Wesley? Why Whitfield?
Why Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones?
Why Corrie Ten-Boom?
Why Bruchko to the hidden tribe of the Amazon jungle in the last century?
Why anyone at anytime to anywhere?

Because He chooses His vessels to spread His One Way to all tribes and tongues -of which Paul, alone reached very few, but which the Church as a body empowered with the Spirit to go, went, from Pentecost to now and is still going to all tribes and tongues in all the world until the end of this age.
Apples and oranges!! none of those people you listed were chosen by the Lord himself to be not only an apostle but THE Apostle to the gentiles!
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Apples and oranges!! none of those people you listed were chosen by the Lord himself to be not only an apostle but THE Apostle to the gentiles!
Apparently you do not even read the Word of God for yourself to spew out such contradictions to it.
Each and every Apostle was chosen by the LORD Himself -and each and every Apostle was specifically commanded to go the Jews and also to the Gentiles -and they did so even before the cross; when Jesus was with them, to Jews and to Gentiles.

Afterward they waited for the enduement with power from on high and were sent into all the world -a process of the body multiplying through their witness and spreading into all the world; which did happen in the first century and not by Paul alone nor even with him overseeing it, for Paul had a limited area of influence; very limited as shown in the names of the recipients of letters he wrote; Corinthians, Ephesians, Galations, Romans,Thessalonians, Philipians, Corinthians, Laodicians -all were cities or areas within nations, none were nations.
Now where are those descendents today of those people in those churches Paul established? -Show them, if you can. -Some got their candles removed a long time ago!


Timothy however, established a Church in India, which was spread to the nation.

The body of Christ was empowerd on Pentecost and was spreading into all nations by the scattering of the Church, itself, for one, by the persecution of it before Paul was saved.
You are not able to claim to be a Bible scholar at all to say such contradictory things to the written Word of God.
 
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SpiritandPower

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Apparently you do not even read the Word of God for yourself to spew out such contradictions to it.
Each and every Apostle was chosen by the LORD Himself -and each and every Apostle was specifically commanded to go the Jews and also to the Gentiles -and they did so even before the cross; when Jesus was with them, to Jews and to Gentiles.

Afterward they waited for the enduement with power from on high and were sent into all the world -a process of the body multiplying through their witness and spreading into all the world; which did happen in the first century and not by Paul alone nor even with him overseeing it, for Paul had a limited area of influence; very limited as shown in the names of the recipients of letters he wrote; Corinthians, Ephesians, Galations, Romans,Thessalonians, Philipians, Corinthians, Laodicians -all were cities or areas within nations, none were nations.
Now where are those descendents today of those people in those churches Paul established? -Show them, if you can. -Some got their candles removed a long time ago!


Timothy however, established a Church in India, which was spread to the nation.

The body of Christ was empowerd on Pentecost and was spreading into all nations by the scattering of the Church, itself, for one, by the persecution of it before Paul was saved.
You are not able to claim to be a Bible scholar at all to say such contradictory things to the written Word of God.
if they were supposed to go unto the Gentiles also then why the agreement in Gal. 2:9?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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if they were supposed to go unto the Gentiles also then why the agreement in Gal. 2:9?
Gal 2 is about Acts 15 and there is no different gospel for different groups of people in Acts 15, rather the opposite is exactly what Acts 15 is about.
-so your doctrine is false to claim such.


Paul did not go unto all Gentiles everywhere; Paul did not go where the Name of Jesus had already been named by the Apostles of the LORD, for Paul was a "come lately to the fold" Apostle -but he actually did preach to some who had been converted by others, so there is not a formula you can say was given but only a mutual general agreement of territory -not of differences of doctrine to different peoples -that is blatant heresy to teach such false doctrine.
Paul would have had to send every Jew in the churches he founded to Peter and Peter would have had to send every Gentile to Paul if your MAD folly were in the least bit a leaven in the doctrine of Christ -but it is not.


Peter did not preach only to Jews -nor did any of the Apostles of the LORD. Thomas founded the Church in India and Paul had"nada" to do with the spread of the Gospel into all the world, but to a very limited region of the world.

Peter went to Gentiles; Peter wrote from the city of Babylon; Jesus and the Apostles went to Gentiles and preached to multitudes of them before the cross; Jesus and the disciples went into the Way of the Gentiles and stayed in Samaratan cities and preached the Gospel to them before the cross; the Ethiopian Eunuch preached to his fellow men when He went back; likewise the Gospel spread into all the world -all nations over all the earth- in New Testament times and is still spreading to all men in all nations at all this church age and will continue to be spread until the Church is taken away to heaven and the two witnesses begin their ministry to the nation of Israel.

The Church has spread into all the world and continues to spread the same in each generation and will continue to spread the same and not by Paul's preaching, but by the body of the LORD fulfilling His Word spoken to the Apostles in the great commission for the Church to fulfill until He comes to get the Church..
And MAD is refuted here;

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30665257&postcount=1
 
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GLJCA

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He had 12 perfectly good fully trained hand picked men for the job.

Why take that great enemy of the small band of believers ... Saul ... one who had persecuted, imprisoned, and yes stood there for the public execution of Stephen?

Why make him spokesman?

Between Paul and his traveling companion Luke they wrote 2/3 of the New Testament ... at least.

What ever happened to Thaddaeus or Bartholomew?

As a matter of fact ... there aren't actually many folks who can rhyme off the list of the 12 completely unaided. No cheating ...

How come almost everyone can list the 7 dwarfs but not the 12 apostles?

Why is it that Peter's contribution to the Scripture is so very small and Paul's so large?

All of those Peter hypers out there ... is it simply because Peter didn't have a good publicist? Paul was a better writer?

Why?

Was it perhaps God's plan?

Why?



.
Who picked the original 12 apostles? Jesus did it himself.

Who picked Mathias? The 11 apostles that remained and then they drew lots on which of the two that they had picked would take Judas place. It is the equivalent of my saying that Lord I picked these two women and I am going to draw lots to see which you want me to marry. What if neither of those two women are what God has for me? I believe that this was the case of the apostles picking the twelfth apostle for Christ.

Jesus picked Paul himself as the 12th apostle, not Mathias. I think that the apostles jumped the gun and pick for Christ. Paul is one of the apostles that is the foundation of the Church.

That is why God gave Paul the same message that He gave the other apostles and Paul preached that message.

GLJCA
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Who picked the original 12 apostles? Jesus did it himself.

Who picked Mathias? The 11 apostles that remained and then they drew lots on which of the two that they had picked would take Judas place. It is the equivalent of my saying that Lord I picked these two women and I am going to draw lots to see which you want me to marry. What if neither of those two women are what God has for me? I believe that this was the case of the apostles picking the twelfth apostle for Christ.

Jesus picked Paul himself as the 12th apostle, not Mathias. I think that the apostles jumped the gun and pick for Christ. Paul is one of the apostles that is the foundation of the Church.

That is why God gave Paul the same message that He gave the other apostles and Paul preached that message.

GLJCA
I agree with Jesus picking Paul to be [a tag along -johnny-come-lately] witness to the risen LORD; but Matthias is the LORD's pick to fill Judas' place ; for Peter understood the Scriptures and he stood up and quoted them about Judas, and was speaking for the LORD [who gave all His authority to the disciples and told them (all) that whatsoever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven -and so on] when he said they must see whom the LORD would replace Judas with -"let his office another take" to be an eyewitness of Jesus words and life and resurrection.


The office was that of being a companion and eyewitness of all Jesus did and said from the beginnning; Paul actually learned what Jesus said and did by hearsay -from them- and could never have fulfilled that office by any stretch of the imaginatioon; and the Holy Spirit convinced Paul of the truth of what he heard about what Jesus said -as He does us, or else we haven't "seen" him, either.
-and when He was commanded to preach the Gospel that was delivered to him by Anannais mouth, too, and not by Jesus'.

Paul won't be on a throne 'rulimg the twelve tribes in the millennium, he'll be a stone beside you and me in the House Jesus is building, however -but as a Benjamite Jew He will have a Memorial Gate named after His tribe in the City of God which is New Jerusalem.

Act 1:15¶And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)Act 1:16
Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.Act 1:17
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.Act 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.Act 1:21
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,Act 1:22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.Act 1:23
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.Act 1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,Act 1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.Act 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.


Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:10¶And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.Act 9:19
And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

Act 9:25
Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.Act 9:26¶And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.Act 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Act 9:28
And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.Act 9:32¶And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

BTW -there's Peter out preaching the Gospel outside Jerusalem -another MAD refutation!
 
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Dispy

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Who picked the original 12 apostles? Jesus did it himself.

Who picked Mathias? The 11 apostles that remained and then they drew lots on which of the two that they had picked would take Judas place. It is the equivalent of my saying that Lord I picked these two women and I am going to draw lots to see which you want me to marry. What if neither of those two women are what God has for me? I believe that this was the case of the apostles picking the twelfth apostle for Christ.

Jesus picked Paul himself as the 12th apostle, not Mathias. I think that the apostles jumped the gun and pick for Christ. Paul is one of the apostles that is the foundation of the Church.

That is why God gave Paul the same message that He gave the other apostles and Paul preached that message.

GLJCA

Before the so called "great commission" could be carried our and the Pentecostal power given, the number of the disciples had to again be brought up to 12.

So if you will read Acts 1:15-26. you will find the qualifications for Judas' replacement in verse 22 "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto the same day that he was taken up from, us MUST ONE BE ORDAINED TO BE A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

I really don't think that Paul would have qualified as a replacement. He wasn't even saved until at least 7-10 years AFTER Pentecost.

From verse 23, it appears that of those qualified, it was narrowed down to 2. In prayer they asked the Lord to show which one should replace Judas. Drawing lots was a commom practise of that day, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the 11 apostles.

Keep in mind also that Peter was given the "keys to the kingdom" in Christ's absense. That whosoever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.

If it were God's choise to have Paul replace Judas, Why did He wait 7-10 years after Pentecost to save him?

"The gospel of the Grace of God" given to Paul is not the same as "The gospel of the kingdom" that the disciples of Jesus preached.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Before the so called "great commission" could be carried our and the Pentecostal power given, the number of the disciples had to again be brought up to 12.

So if you will read Acts 1:15-26. you will find the qualifications for Judas' replacement in verse 22 "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto the same day that he was taken up from, us MUST ONE BE ORDAINED TO BE A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

I really don't think that Paul would have qualified as a replacement. He wasn't even saved until at least 7-10 years AFTER Pentecost.

From verse 23, it appears that of those qualified, it was narrowed down to 2. In prayer they asked the Lord to show which one should replace Judas. Drawing lots was a commom practise of that day, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the 11 apostles.

Keep in mind also that Peter was given the "keys to the kingdom" in Christ's absense. That whosoever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven.

If it were God's choise to have Paul replace Judas, Why did He wait 7-10 years after Pentecost to save him?

"The gospel of the Grace of God" given to Paul is not the same as "The gospel of the kingdom" that the disciples of Jesus preached.



Peter alone was not given the authority to bind and loose on earth and it be done in heaven; that authority is given to all who are sons of God in the Firstborn by the adoption; and was spoken to all the disciples.

When He appeared to His apostles the eve after His ascension He breathed on/into them the New Life in His Spirit of adoption ; and they became the body of Christ on earth; which body was to multiply, and all in the body have the same authority to bind on earth and it be bound in heaven [the realm of earth's spirit which Adam was cut off from at the fall and where the wicked principlaities and powers rule from over the earth].

Christ ascended and is seated high above every name that is named in heaven and in earth and He has all power and all authourity and He gave it to His Church -to those who are members of His New Man body by the New Birth.

Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all Gentiles***, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the age***. Amen.


In Matthew 18 Jesus is speaking to His disciples =-all of them;

Mat 18:1¶At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, ....Mat 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

And the Great Commission was not for just the twelve -the twelve were to be eyewitnesses of His Life and work and testify to Him as His Witnesses; the Great Commission was given to the entire Church body of the entire Church age
which body began -on earth- with the incarnation of Jesus the Christ and was joined to, on earth, when He returned from heaven that day and breathed on them the breath of New Life!


Jhn 20:20
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.Jhn 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.Jhn 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
breathed on emphusao {em-foo-sah'-o}

1) to blow or breathe upon
++++
This word used only once by the LXX translators in Gen 2:7 where God breathed on Adam and he became a living soul. Just as the original creation was completed by an act of God, so to the new creation was completed by an act from the Head of the new creation. (AWP Jo 20:22)
 
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