Why did Jesus Leave?

[stevenfrancis]

More accurately, they are released from having to critically think about and potentially reconsider their theological commitments. All they have to do is play the faith card.

See......to me, anyway, this makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not sure you can "un-Jesus" once one is of the elect. At least not while being genuine with themselves. There is an over emphasis on the Christianity as an intellectual process in these kinds of posts. I'm a late life convert, of relatively high intelligence. While much of my conversion experience involved critical thinking and discernment, it became clear early on that there is much more to the Christian mystery than what I could garner from traditional study and thought. If open, (and I was/am), and prayerful, at some point the Holy Spirit kicks in to aid the process. I was just about there through the intellectual exercise. But my "amazing grace" experience was frankly more important in the end. I will say this though, that this doesn't mean we shouldn't test our experience. Discernment and study are ongoing. They are just not as important as DOING Christianity. That is DOING agape love.

Whatever it may seem like to you, I promise you that no true believer is "playing the faith card". We have been given a gift. One that is available to all who seek it with an open heart and mind. We all put stumbling blocks up to the supernatural elements because of skepticism and cynicism. These are culturally ingrained in modernity and post-modernity, to the point where those who are recipients of faith are looked upon with suspicion at a minimum, and contempt in some cases. This is not the fault of the one who has accepted their gift of faith. It is available to ALL. Even the most cynical and skeptical through prayer, openness, study, fasting, meditation can be joined with the Christ. There are many paths to do so. Mine actually involved a lot of reading, critical thinking, testing theological ideas etc.. I had to do this for quite a while. At some point though, I knew that because of the nature of what I was studying that I would need to pray and meditate on all of the information.

The intellectually driven run the risk of looking down on their brothers and sisters or thinking themselves elite for the very reason of their own cynicism and skepticism. It is easy to allow these useful tools to become prominent in our spiritual search, and forget that in the end, it is a search of the spirit. We are challenged to tap into something outside of ourselves, and allow ourselves to trust in that something until that trust becomes faith, as we approach the seemingly unreasonable, with reason and openness, (faith and reason), we will be answered.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

See......to me, anyway, this makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not sure you can "un-Jesus" once one is of the elect. At least not while being genuine with themselves. There is an over emphasis on the Christianity as an intellectual process in these kinds of posts. I'm a late life convert, of relatively high intelligence. While much of my conversion experience involved critical thinking and discernment, it became clear early on that there is much more to the Christian mystery than what I could garner from traditional study and thought. If open, (and I was/am), and prayerful, at some point the Holy Spirit kicks in to aid the process. I was just about there through the intellectual exercise. But my "amazing grace" experience was frankly more important in the end. I will say this though, that this doesn't mean we shouldn't test our experience. Discernment and study are ongoing. They are just not as important as DOING Christianity. That is DOING agape love.

Whatever it may seem like to you, I promise you that no true believer is "playing the faith card". We have been given a gift. One that is available to all who seek it with an open heart and mind. We all put stumbling blocks up to the supernatural elements because of skepticism and cynicism. These are culturally ingrained in modernity and post-modernity, to the point where those who are recipients of faith are looked upon with suspicion at a minimum, and contempt in some cases. This is not the fault of the one who has accepted their gift of faith. It is available to ALL. Even the most cynical and skeptical through prayer, openness, study, fasting, meditation can be joined with the Christ. There are many paths to do so. Mine actually involved a lot of reading, critical thinking, testing theological ideas etc.. I had to do this for quite a while. At some point though, I knew that because of the nature of what I was studying that I would need to pray and meditate on all of the information.

The intellectually driven run the risk of looking down on their brothers and sisters or thinking themselves elite for the very reason of their own cynicism and skepticism. It is easy to allow these useful tools to become prominent in our spiritual search, and forget that in the end, it is a search of the spirit. We are challenged to tap into something outside of ourselves, and allow ourselves to trust in that something until that trust becomes faith, as we approach the seemingly unreasonable, with reason and openness, (faith and reason), we will be answered.

I agree that those who are skeptical of religion shouldn't be supercilious about it. Most skeptics honestly want to know why people of faith are so certain in their beliefs and how they justify the supernatural claims of their religion.

My comment about the "faith card" relates to how I see many religionists trying to answer those questions: they invoke faith in an attempt to vanquish doubt. But faith can be used to justify whatever one wishes, so it clearly cannot be relied upon as a path to knowledge.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Since you ask, I think that his purpose was to redeem mankind and triumph over death--and, of course, to make that known. For him to have lived forever on Earth would IMHO diminish those messages or accomplishments.

Seems to me that if he had actually lived through 2000 years (and as the only guy to do so) that would perfectly prove the claim that he's "triumphed over death" and make it much harder to deny any sort of divinity attached to him.

But that's just my own, atheist opinion.

 

[Hieronymus]

I'm a seminary geaduate... I can check it out, but I doubt I can find anything new that I wasn't aware before.

Check it out.

When I gave you Spiderman example it wasn't to compare narrative... but to show you that we use strict methodology to determine what's history and what's not.

Indeed.
That's why i conclude the Bible written history.
It's inceasingly supported by evidence.

 

[Hieronymus]

Why couldn't he stay until someone invented better way to document the events,

What's wrong with written history?
You need it to be on video?
Time travel perhaps?

 

[HitchSlap]

How would you know if you are?

I prefer to use falsifiable models with predictive capabilities. It's the best way to evaluate claims to see if they comport with reality, using independent objective evidence.

 

[Hieronymus]

I prefer to use falsifiable models with predictive capabilities. It's the best way to evaluate claims to see if they comport with reality, using independent objective evidence.

Then why are you a Darwinist?

 

[HitchSlap]

I love this, well said.

Why does one need faith at all?

 

[HitchSlap]

Then why are you a Darwinist?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Darwinist"?

 

[Deidre32]

Why does one need faith at all?

Returning to Christianity for me was about an experience of the Holy Spirit, at least that's how I view it. I was an atheist when it happened...and so for me, it's not so much about 'faith' anymore, like a blind faith. It's about knowing, now.

 

[Deidre32]

I prefer to use falsifiable models with predictive capabilities. It's the best way to evaluate claims to see if they comport with reality, using independent objective evidence.

You have your own code by which you live your life. Faith/spirituality is another code that others live their lives by. Neither is right or wrong, we are just different.

 

[HitchSlap]

Returning to Christianity for me was about an experience of the Holy Spirit, at least that's how I view it. I was an atheist when it happened...and so for me, it's not so much about 'faith' anymore, like a blind faith. It's about knowing, now.

What is it you know, then?

 

[Deidre32]

What is it you know, then?

That God is real.

 

[HitchSlap]

You have your own code by which you live your life. Faith/spirituality is another code that others live their lives by. Neither is right or wrong, we are just different.

I disagree. Using falsifiable models allows me to change their beliefs to best reflect reality.

"Faith / spirituality" models allow one believe what they want for selfish reasons in spite of reality.

Would you prefer your neighbor use reasoned logic to inform their behavior, or whatever they felt their spirit was telling them?

 

[Albion]

Returning to Christianity for me was about an experience of the Holy Spirit, at least that's how I view it. I was an atheist when it happened...and so for me, it's not so much about 'faith' anymore, like a blind faith. It's about knowing, now.

Would you prefer your neighbor use reasoned logic to inform their behavior, or whatever they felt their spirit was telling them?

Apparently it hasn't yet happened for you as it has for Deidre. That's all. There's no need to argue about it.

 

[Deidre32]

I disagree. Using falsifiable models allows me to change their beliefs to best reflect reality.

"Faith / spirituality" models allow one believe what they want for selfish reasons in spite of reality.

Would you prefer your neighbor use reasoned logic to inform their behavior, or whatever they felt their spirit was telling them?

There's objective reality, and subjective. I can't prove that God exists to you, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist. You know what I mean?

 

[HitchSlap]

That God is real.

Knowledge is demonstrable.

 

[HitchSlap]

There's objective reality, and subjective. I can't prove that God exists to you, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist. You know what I mean?

If you can't prove it, then you don't know it.

 

[Deidre32]

Knowledge is demonstrable.

Well, there was a witness at my work to one of the ''occasions.'' lol He didn't deny that it could be the Holy Spirit, because on that day, there wasn't a plausible explanation for what was happening. Likewise, you can't prove God doesn't exist. Absence of evidence isn't really 'evidence.'

 

[Deidre32]

If you can't prove it, then you don't know it.

I know all the arguments, as I was an atheist at one time, too. I wasn't interested in getting people to change their minds, though. If spirituality and faith brings happiness and joy to people, you should live and let live.