Why did Jesus Leave?

[devolved]

Just think about how the patriarchs felt hearing the fresh prophecies of Christ, not being able to perceive Him themselves, and, they didn't have a holy spirit to comfort them. Yet, they still had faith in Him. That is big - something we can learn from. They had it really bad, and it would have been very easy for them to go into flashy spirituality (like witchcraft) that seemingly yields results, rather than wait. In fact, many Hebrews did do that.

Again, perhaps you can explain... why would faith be a virtue in this context when in virtually every other context it's a sign of being gullible and ignorant?

 

[Chriliman]

1) How do you know that it's Jesus and not merely an ideology that leads to a better life choices?

I'm not sure because I think Jesus teaches the best ideology that leads to abundant life. Simply, love God and love others. Sometimes loving others lead us to love God and sometimes loving God leads us to love others.

2) Why would it be better than seeing? And how is it relevant as to why Jesus left? He left so he can hide and do things incognito?

His physical human body left, but he is still here among us in the body of the Church and among sinners.

The problem of not being there and ascribing "done by invisible Jesus" seems to be a problem when Christianity isn't in the best shape it can be when it comes to being "Jesus-like". Is Jesus doing a bad job?

No, he's showing his true nature of love, compassion and patience. Human's require a lot of patience and love and that's exactly what God provides through Jesus Christ.

Again, I don't see how being invisible is better for the world of people who would rather see prior to believing.

Spiritual sight is better than fleshy sight, but I understand this doesn't mean much to you at this time. I do hope you continue honestly seeking the truth about God and Jesus Christ

All the best!

 

[devolved]

Who said it is difficult to believe? A little child can believe, have faith, and live with Jesus as the Savior and the Master of their life.
True, adults have a much harder time - things they'd rather have and all.....

Under your faith it just says "seeker". Is that right ?
Are you seeking Truth, Life, or something else ?

I seek answers to the questions I have. Answers that don't boil down to fallacy in context of what we know.

Yes, a little child can believe, hence we have to teach them to stay away from a guy with unmarked van and a candy in hand.

 

[Hieronymus]

Why? What's so virtuous about faith? Why is faith important?

John 3:16
It's about who seeks Him.

 

[Hieronymus]

Again, perhaps you can explain... why would faith be a virtue in this context when in virtually every other context it's a sign of being gullible and ignorant?

What an ignorant assumption..

 

[devolved]

I'm not sure because I think Jesus teaches the best ideology that leads to abundant life. Simply, love God and love others. Sometimes loving others lead us to love God and sometimes loving God leads us to love others.

I wouldn't disagree with the best ideology part.

His physical human body left, but he is still here among us in the body of the Church and among sinners.

What does that mean? Body of the church is supposedly the people. Are you saying that collection of people are Jesus? How do you make that equivocation? It seems like saying something like "Your mother has died, but her spirit lives on with every good deed that she taught you to do". You seem to be doing similar things. But it's not the same as the mother. It's something that you've learned from her.

No, he's showing his true nature of love, compassion and patience. Human's require a lot of patience and love and that's exactly what God provides through Jesus Christ.

How?

Spiritual sight is better than fleshy sight, but I understand this doesn't mean much to you at this time. I do hope you continue honestly seeking the truth about God and Jesus Christ

Again, you are naming something that doesn't seem to exist, or I would have to pretend to exist, because it doesn't seem to be any different than human sight coupled with some interpretive ideology.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I seek answers to the questions I have. Answers that don't boil down to fallacy in context of what we know.

That's what you will find then.

Jesus prayer hasn't changed either "Father, forgive them, for they know not."
(He didn't come to judge, but to save.)
So likewise all the saints(martyrs)(born again) pray.

 

[devolved]

What an ignorant assumption..

It's not an assumption. You wouldn't buy a car from a mere person's description of the car, right? You'd want to see and drive it.... or would you have faith?

If someone told you, give me a $100 and tomorrow I'll give you a Ferrari, all you have to do is to wait here and have faith. You don't think that handing this person a $100 would be ignorant and naive?

Again, why is faith a virtue?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's not an assumption. You wouldn't buy a car from a mere person's description of the car, right? You'd want to see and drive it.... or would you have faith?

If someone told you, give me a $100 and tomorrow I'll give you a Ferrari, all you have to do is to wait here and have faith. You don't think that handing this person a $100 would be ignorant and naive?

Again, why is faith a virtue?

I believe God , the Creator of EVERYTHING, said plainly that IF you trust men, HE (GOD) curses you. (anyone who trusts in the flesh).
i.e. men are NOT trustworthy - they will fail you, even if they never failed before they still could.

God has never failed anyone. And He says so.
Without FAITH, it is impossible to please God.
BUT
you can't go get faith somewhere. Can't buy faith anywhere. Sorry.

It's a sheer gift, for those who seek God or are called and chosen by God for His Purpose.

 

[devolved]

I believe God , the Creator of EVERYTHING, said plainly that IF you trust men, HE (GOD) curses you. (anyone who trusts in the flesh).
i.e. men are NOT trustworthy - they will fail you, even if they never failed before they still could.

But men written the Bible, and that's what you supposed to have faith in prior to believing - a story told by men. And if men are not trustworthy and not reliable, then your line of reasoning falls apart.

That's the whole point I'm trying to make. We don't have God telling people about God. We have men telling people about God and we supposed to have faith in something that you are saying is NOT trustworthy and fallible - their ideas and stories.

God has never failed anyone. And He says so.
Without FAITH, it is impossible to please God.
BUT
you can't go get faith somewhere. Can't buy faith anywhere. Sorry.

Again, you are not answering the question WHY? You are making a statement that doesn't answer the question.

I'm asking you WHY is faith more important than experience in this context? You don't seem to understand the problem. From our fallible human mind as you label it, it's difficult to discern mere claims and then believe the right one, especially when all of them sound alike. It doesn't seem very reliable means of knowing God.

If Paul could get his Damascus road experience, why can't I or any other skeptic ? We are asking for it, and all we get is "but then there wouldn't be faith"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But men written the Bible, and that's what you supposed to have faith in prior to believing - a story told by men. And if men are not trustworthy and not reliable, then your line of reasoning falls apart.

That's the whole point I'm trying to make. We don't have God telling people about God. We have men telling people about God and we supposed to have faith in something that you are saying is NOT trustworthy and fallible - their ideas and stories.

That's your choice.
I had a similar choice when I was young.
I could keep on or go on or start 'trusting men' (at church).
Then I saw people who did not trust men.
I saw something I had NEVER seen before in my short life (under 20 years).
I saw joyful, cheerful, happy, obedient, faithful followers of Jesus ('Christians') with LIFE!
REAL LIFE. Together. As one. Helping instead of hurting one another, and helping others, instead of judging them or telling them "go and be warm".

After about six months, watching every day, seeing their real true life in Jesus lived out every day, truthfully - no pretending,
after a growing hunger for God, and for HIS Kingdom, and a thirst for RIGHTEOUSNESS (to be forgiven of my sins, to be right with God; His Way)
I repented fully, turned to God fully , away from sin, forever, no matter what God would do or wanted me to do - I became His, like the thief on the cross.

Not very many people I meet EVER became His, anyplace.
But a few have.
God calls and chooses for HIMSELF martyrs, by HIS will from heaven 'born again' (not by man's choice, not by man's will, nor by the will of the flesh).

We are castaways on earth. (see the description Paul gives in the NT of the Apostles, "potato peels" cast out on the garbage pile.... ekeing out existence working with their hands whatever odd jobs they can find; being chased from one town to the next..... (by religious and political leaders, and the general populace) ...)

OH, I could have given up, and trusted 'men', and done what 'men' wanted instead of what GOD clearly wanted and states VERY CLEARLY in HIS WORD.....
but by SHEER GRACE - completely a GIFT FROM GOD in JESUS,
I am HIS.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Again, perhaps you can explain... why would faith be a virtue in this context when in virtually every other context it's a sign of being gullible and ignorant?

Because in most cultures faith is a misnomer; when they say faith they really mean to say gullible and ignorant. Faith is the substance of things not seen, but hoped for. You have faith your computer won't explode in your face right now. You have faith your boss will actually pay you on time. You have faith that your paycheck won't bounce when you try to cash it in. You have faith when you walk outside not expecting to be swallowed up into the earth. You have faith that some super-evil extraterrestrial race won't come to earth and annihilate only you. You have faith that your dollar (or pound, euro, etc.) will have value in an hour.

Faith - real faith - is not gullibility and ignorance. Quite the contrary; real faith is an intellectual's nightmare because it means one has to trust circumstances without a concrete apparatus with which to verify. In other words, intellectuals rely on logic, reason and science only - that is their reality barometer. But, that is not all there is to reality, especially if you are a spiritual person.

This may be one of the reasons there are constant references to people needing to be child-like in order to understand and grasp the Kingdom. To children, everything is "entertainable." To the adult - especially the intellectual adult - life experience and circumstance do not allow for such "carefree" thinking. One must be diligent and aware of one's surroundings, seeking to understand in the most concrete and tangible manner.

Real faith is a virtue because it means that you trust something that, perhaps, cannot be explained through conventional "concrete" means. That means you are looking beyond your own understanding, and trust something beyond you outside of your own understanding. That is very hard. And, for an intellectual person that is perhaps the hardest thing to do - to have faith in something beyond your own understanding. It is humbling, especially for the one who lauds their understanding so much they almost create themselves as an idol. But, faith and knowledge are two sides of the same coin. Where knowledge fails, faith completes. Faith is actually a gift that allows us to be "pseudo-omniscient," as images of God.

God never raised stupid, gullible, ignorant followers/saints/patriarchs. Jacob wrestled an angel of God, Jonah ran from God because he [thought he] knew what God would do (relying on his own intellect.) Adam entertained an enemy suggesting rebellion against God - and then blamed his wife! Moses was so upset with the whining and moaning of the Hebrews that he ignored a specific instruction of God and did what he wanted to do (relying on his own intellect.) Daniel and his friends were of the most intelligent men in their city. These men are not push-over, dumb, ignorant people. They had faith despite their intellect, not because of it.

 

[devolved]

I saw joyful, cheerful, happy, obedient, faithful followers of Jesus ('Christians') with LIFE!
REAL LIFE. Together. As one. Helping instead of hurting one another, and helping others, instead of judging them or telling them "go and be warm".

I understand how believing in the ideals would make a difference, but how would that say anything beyond the ideals? I've seen plentiful people, both believer and non-believers lead happy lives because they executed certain ideals. Why should we believe anything beyond that execution of ideals brings results?

For example, people claim that if you ask Universe something enough it will give it to you, and they claim to have happy and wealthy lives and they use their wealth as a proof of that. Should one believe and have faith in the claim?

You see how faith is not a virtue or even relevant in this context? It seems to be merely coinciding with execution of proper habits and worldview?

After about six months, watching every day, seeing their real true life in Jesus lived out every day, truthfully - no pretending,
after a growing hunger for God, and for HIS Kingdom, and a thirst for RIGHTEOUSNESS (to be forgiven of my sins, to be right with God; His Way)
I repented fully, turned to God fully , away from sin, forever, no matter what God would do or wanted me to do - I became His, like the thief on the cross.

Again, there's nothing wrong with ideals. Plenty of people follow ideals and claim to come close and be happy because of it. Does it automatically mean that whatever they ascribe it to is real?

OH, I could have given up, and trusted 'men', and done what 'men' wanted instead of what GOD clearly wanted and states VERY CLEARLY in HIS WORD.....
but by SHEER GRACE - completely a GIFT FROM GOD in JESUS,
I am HIS.

Again, you didn't see God in any of this from what I've gathered. You've seen men executing ideals that you seemed to have bought into. Which is great, but how does it answer any of my questions? You seem to contradict yourself that you stopped trusting men, when you in fact read books written by men, and you followed the examples set by men.

You very much trusted men as it seems to me, and you didn't rely on some third sense. You've seen people do things, and claim their beliefs, and you merely believed them.

Again, since you didn't answer my question, why would faith be a virtue in such context and why would Jesus leave? That's the question of the thread, and you answering different questions all together.

 

[Hieronymus]

It's not an assumption. You wouldn't buy a car from a mere person's description of the car, right? You'd want to see and drive it.... or would you have faith?

It's not about a car.

I understand the frustration though, when you get these kinds of answers.

Thomas was a 'seeing is believing' kind of guy too.
But Jesus said: 'Blessed is he who believes without having seen'
As opposed to the Pharisees, who saw and still didn't believe.

 

[Hieronymus]

Again, why is faith a virtue?

God sees it as a virtue.
This is quite clear throughout the Bible.

It is love for God, that's what it is about.

 

[expos4ever]

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope?

Perhaps He had to leave to honor the commitment God made in the book of Genesis to set mankind as "steward-king" over creation. I believe a case can be made that in the early chapters of Genesis, and actually through the whole Israel project culminating in Jesus, that God's plan has always been for humanity to "govern" His (God's) created world. If Jesus "stuck around", one could argue that the plan would be undermined since it would be hard for the world to not basically "off-load" their governance responsibility onto the eternally-present, never dying resurrected Jesus.

There are some problems with this theory, but it's an idea.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You think different questions, but the most important thing in anyone's life, ever,
is to have their sins forgiven.
Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins. (most people on earth never repent, so no, it is not normal to see).
Even though I grew up in church, and went to hundreds of places, fellowships, even bible studies, very few ever adhered to (trusted in) God's Word and Jesus.
So, there is no 'human' reason I can think of why you should have faith or repent - there's plenty of company without ever seeking God , and without repenting.

Just I think it's a good idea, both here in this life, and for eternal life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

footnote for research later: Jesus told His disciples He would never, never, never leave them nor forsake them. Jesus never lied- it is impossible for Jesus to lie.(even though there is at least one 'exception' in the NT; 'apparently'; (I think the Hebrew way of thinking would vindicate Him in that; I don't know) ) ....
anyway,
Jesus is the Good Shepherd.
The Good Shepherd watches over His sheep(all of His sheep).
His sheep hear His Voice.


Ever wonder why most people never hear the Shepherd's Voice ?

 

[Hieronymus]

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

"without a trace"? "a story"?
The Bible is written history.
The promise is not hope, it is life eternal and justice and perfection.
All to his Glory and to our joy also.
We can be part-takers, He wants that for who seek him.

Don't get me wrong, i understand the present distance is counter-intuitive for (what we know of) his Plan.
I have struggled with it too, for quite a while, and sometimes i still do.
But do you really think you would have a better Plan?

You see, life in God's Kingdom is not a holiday for a couple of weeks, it's THE Destination prepared for us, for eternity.
Unfathomable stuff, obviously.

 

[devolved]

Because in most cultures faith is a misnomer; when they say faith they really mean to say gullible and ignorant. Faith is the substance of things not seen, but hoped for. You have faith your computer won't explode in your face right now. You have faith your boss will actually pay you on time. You have faith that your paycheck won't bounce when you try to cash it in. You have faith when you walk outside not expecting to be swallowed up into the earth. You have faith that some super-evil extraterrestrial race won't come to earth and annihilate only you. You have faith that your dollar (or pound, euro, etc.) will have value in an hour.

No, that's where you seem to misunderstand.

I don't have faith that computer won't explode in my face. I have knowledge that my boss will pay me on time, because I am the boss . The same about the paycheck, because I know how much I have in the account. And I don't merely have faith in any of these things. I actually have a high degree of certainty that it will not happen based on my PRIOR EXPERIENCE. That's not what faith is. You are attempting to relable the semantics of faith to something that we have certainty for through actual experience of these things.

Faith - real faith - is not gullibility and ignorance. Quite the contrary; real faith is an intellectual's nightmare because it means one has to trust circumstances without a concrete apparatus with which to verify. In other words, intellectuals rely on logic, reason and science only - that is their reality barometer. But, that is not all there is to reality, especially if you are a spiritual person.

Again, why would that be virtuous? You make it out to be a good thing, but you trust things because you have some reason and experience that these are reliable.... otherwise the word trust is meaningless.

For example, if I'm thrown out of the plane without parachute... it doesn't matter how much I trust or have faith in circumstances of me pulling through, it doesn't change the likely outcome. I may claim all the faith in the world, but faith is only as good as one's relative certainty in context of understanding. That's all it is.

For example, would you put your life on a bet that a person would make or miss a basketball shot. Let's say you have a choice between Michael Jordan or some random dude from the street. Faith/trust is directly proportional to our experience.

When experience is lacking, then mere faith is ignorance and gullibility.

So far you don't make a good case as to why faith is a virtue that we should accept as better than experience itself.

This may be one of the reasons there are constant references to people needing to be child-like in order to understand and grasp the Kingdom. To children, everything is "entertainable." To the adult - especially the intellectual adult - life experience and circumstance do not allow for such "carefree" thinking. One must be diligent and aware of one's surroundings, seeking to understand in the most concrete and tangible manner.

And that's why we teach them not to take candy from strangers. Again... there's nothing virtuous about that state. Children will believe 2 + 2 = chair, does that make them better than adults who won't?

Real faith is a virtue because it means that you trust something that, perhaps, cannot be explained through conventional "concrete" means. That means you are looking beyond your own understanding, and trust something beyond you outside of your own understanding. That is very hard. And, for an intellectual person that is perhaps the hardest thing to do - to have faith in something beyond your own understanding. It is humbling, especially for the one who lauds their understanding so much they almost create themselves as an idol. But, faith and knowledge are two sides of the same coin. Where knowledge fails, faith completes. Faith is actually a gift that allows us to be "pseudo-omniscient," as images of God.

So, a child doesn't understand that a kidnapper with a fun toy isn't really there to entertain them. Should they trust in something beyond their understanding, or should they go with common experience taught to them by adults who KNOW better?

Again, and your answer seems to be ... well because you trust in something that you don't understand. How is that virtuous? Buddhist philosophy is something I can't understand... should I have faith in it, and then it be ascribed to me as virtue?

God never raised stupid, gullible, ignorant followers/saints/patriarchs. Jacob wrestled an angel of God, Jonah ran from God because he [thought he] knew what God would do (relying on his own intellect.) Adam entertained an enemy suggesting rebellion against God - and then blamed his wife! Moses was so upset with the whining and moaning of the Hebrews that he ignored a specific instruction of God and did what he wanted to do (relying on his own intellect.) Daniel and his friends were of the most intelligent men in their city. These men are not push-over, dumb, ignorant people. They had faith despite their intellect, not because of it.

Yes, and it worked out well for characters in a book... which you first have to accept as historical reality.

I'm asking you why reading and believing a story in a book better than actual experience. You don't seem to understand the difference.