Why did God punish us for the sin of Adam and Eve?

Daniel94

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God foreknew that Adam and Eve would fall before He created them and yet He went ahead and created them anyway. And after they fell, which He already knew they would, He cursed them, also cursing the land and childbirth. He had full knowledge that sin would enter into this world thru Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it to happen. Scripture tells us that He had planned all of this before He created the world. And rather than just stop there, He goes even further and curses the rest of humanity with a sinful nature, thus punishing humanity with a fallen nature for the sins of Adam and Eve.

A few hundred years later, He grows angry at the wickedness of men, which again, He foreknew would happen, and He destroys all of humanity in a global flood, except for Noah and his family. He then allows Noah and his family to repopulate the earth, knowing full well that mankind would become wicked again (because of their sinful nature inherited by Adam, which He allowed). So, rather than destroy the earth again in a global flood, which He promised He would never do again, He just turns men over to their wicked hearts and at times, hardens the hearts of men, because of the wickedness in their hearts, which is the result of their sinful nature, which God allowed to happen in the first place, because He cursed mankind with a sinful nature (punishing humanity for the sins of Adam and Eve).

So you see, we are going round and round in circles. We cannot simply ignore these things that God allowed to happen, for whatever reasons. According to Scripture, God planned all of this before He created the world. Mankind has no choice on whether or not it will sin and rebel against God. No one ever chose to be born spiritually dead and already condemned by God before they were even born. It was God who allowed mankind to fall thru Adam and Eve. God allowed Adam and Eve to fall, because He had foreknowledge of the fall before He created the world. Furthermore, mankind has no choice on whether or not to be saved or to repent of its sins either. Scripture is very clear that no one seeks after God (none are righteous and the carnal mind is at enmity against God) and it is God Himself who leads us to repentance and gives us a measure of faith. Scripture is also perfectly clear that there is absolutely nothing we can do to save ourselves. Scripture even goes so far as to tell us that all of our righteous acts are like filthy rags to God.

It is God who first condemned us with a sinful nature, which causes us to be prone to sin and rebel against Him, which in turn, causes us to become children of wrath, before we were ever born. It is by our very nature that we sin against God and rebel against Him. It is by our very nature that we are born spiritually dead in our sins and which in turn causes our hearts to become wicked and our minds to become at enmity against God. We are literally doomed before we are born. And if that's not bad enough, we cannot do anything to help ourselves from being eternally condemned by God, even before we are born. He prohibited us from seeking Him out ourselves and He prevents us from coming to repentance and to salvation on our own. He literally leaves us helpless and we stand in judgment for breaking His holy laws, even though He allowed us to be born with a sinful nature (which causes us to sin and rebel against Him) and then He prohibits us from coming to Him UNLESS He personally draws us to Him and then leads us to salvation Himself.

Can anyone please shed some light on this?
 

Daniel94

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What about your sins...

You and I need the Savior. We do not need to try to be omniscient; it won't work in any case.

I just can't see how a just God would basically trap Adam and Eve's descendants into a sinful nature and make them incapable of repenting and believing, and then saving some of them and letting the others go to hell. That's like judging a blind man because he can't see... it's not the blind man's fault.
 
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BryanW92

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I just can't see how a just God would basically trap Adam and Eve's descendants into a sinful nature and make them incapable of repenting and believing, and then saving some of them and letting the others go to hell. That's like judging a blind man because he can't see... it's not the blind man's fault.

God created the angels without free will. He created a universe that is very orderly as if follows the laws of physics. He created a world that follows natural laws. All those things have no choice but to do what they were programmed to do.

Perhaps he wanted to have something in the universe that could break the laws, and yet desire to not break them.

Maybe God likes to to ask us, "Why did you do that?" and have us answer, "I don't know. I didn't really want to."

Then he replies, "Do you want to do that again?" and we answer "No. But I think I will anyway."

He then tells us in sadness, "I know you will." and we ask him, "Help me stop."

And like a good father, he tells us, "I will help you."

Unlike anything else in the universe, we are God's children and like children, we are messy and a threat to our father's order. But even with all the things you wrote in the OP, he still gives us a solution and a means of salvation. Be thankful for that.
 
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Daniel94

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God created the angels without free will. He created a universe that is very orderly as if follows the laws of physics. He created a world that follows natural laws. All those things have no choice but to do what they were programmed to do.

Except for the angels (about which I'm not sure whether they have free will or not), the laws of physics are not beings, and they won't be sent to an eternal hell, but some people will... the laws of physics don't feel pain, humans do.

Unlike anything else in the universe, we are God's children and like children, we are messy and a threat to our father's order. But even with all the things you wrote in the OP, he still gives us a solution and a means of salvation. Be thankful for that.

What about the guy in Africa who's never heard of Jesus and who sins because ... drum roll ... God gave him a sinful nature, and then that guy dies in his sins and is sent to hell... forever. I have been dead wrong at least several times in my life, I hope I'm wrong now too, because I don't really see justice in this.
 
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BryanW92

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Except for the angels (about which I'm not sure whether they have free will or not), the laws of physics are not beings, and they won't be sent to an eternal hell, but some people will... the laws of physics don't feel pain, humans do.

My point was that God made us to break up the monotony of his perfectly ordered universe. Besides, what is hell exactly? Is it the inferno of Dante? Is it just the lake of fire that consumes everything in it from Revelation? Are the unsaved just thrown in that lake where they burn up "in torment" and "for eternity", but not in eternal torment?



What about the guy in Africa who's never heard of Jesus and who sins because ... drum roll ... God gave him a sinful nature, and then that guy dies in his sins and is sent to hell... forever. I have been dead wrong at least several times in my life, I hope I'm wrong now too, because I don't really see justice in this.

Perhaps he is there for a reason. This is, after all, a Calvinist forum and we believe in the idea of the Elect.

The real question is, since you see all this as an injustice, what do you do with that? Are you going to shake your fist at God and declare that he is not real since he doesn't fit your idea of "fair"? I did that for 30 years. God wins in the end.
 
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Daniel94

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Besides, what is hell exactly? Is it the inferno of Dante? Is it just the lake of fire that consumes everything in it from Revelation? Are the unsaved just thrown in that lake where they burn up "in torment" and "for eternity", but not in eternal torment?

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" - Basically, it's not very nice place.


Perhaps he is there for a reason. This is, after all, a Calvinist forum and we believe in the idea of the Elect.

The real question is, since you see all this as an injustice, what do you do with that? Are you going to shake your fist at God and declare that he is not real since he doesn't fit your idea of "fair"? I did that for 30 years. God wins in the end.

Nothing, I can't do anything about it. I'm just trying to understand the justice of God from a Calvinistic perspective (I am kind of Calvinistic too). Although Romans 9:20 keeps popping into my mind.

A possible answer to it could be that if we were in Adam and Eve's place, we would have done the same thing. In that case, there is justice in us receiving this sinful nature and being under God's wrath. Or maybe this is not the answer, I don't know, that's why I'm asking this.
 
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BryanW92

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Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" - Basically, it's not very nice place.

But that could be for those who choose Satan and not just routine sinners who can't help themselves. By the time we get to the end of Revelation, the lake of fire sounds more like a crematorium than a dungeon.
 
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BryanW92

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Nothing, I can't do anything about it. I'm just trying to understand the justice of God from a Calvinistic perspective (I am kind of Calvinistic too). Although Romans 9:20 keeps popping into my mind.

A possible answer to it could be that if we were in Adam and Eve's place, we would have done the same thing. In that case, there is justice in us receiving this sinful nature and being under God's wrath. Or maybe this is not the answer, I don't know, that's why I'm asking this.

From the Calvinist perspective, we deserve God's wrath. Whatever Adam did corrupted our very DNA and that will never change. Whatever he chooses to give us after that is truly a gift. The Westminster Confession of Faith covers this in detail, with the scriptural proofs for everything it says. I highly recommend reading it. It's a short book and really helped me when I was moving out of the Methodist Church to the Presbyterian to come to grips with the "unfairness" of the Elect and God's sovereignty.
 
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stenerson

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Can anyone please shed some light on this?

I'll let smarter people than I give you answers to some of your questions. I think it's a positive thing though that you are trying to deal with what scriptures says concerning our desperate predicament.
 
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JM

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I just can't see how a just God would basically trap Adam and Eve's descendants into a sinful nature and make them incapable of repenting and believing, and then saving some of them and letting the others go to hell. That's like judging a blind man because he can't see... it's not the blind man's fault.

John Gill is instructive on this issue:

GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM; this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it. [end quote]

Also, consider those God created knowing full well they would only end up in hell. All stripes of orthodox Christianity acknowledge that God is all knowing, knowing all things and that would include who would reject the Gospel or never hear it.

What about the guy in Africa who's never heard of Jesus and who sins because ... drum roll ... God gave him a sinful nature, and then that guy dies in his sins and is sent to hell... forever. I have been dead wrong at least several times in my life, I hope I'm wrong now too, because I don't really see justice in this.

The above assumes too much. It assumes God owes man salvation and it assumes the lost pagan really wants to be saved or know Jesus Christ. These assumptions run contrary to scripture.

I'm just trying to understand the justice of God from a Calvinistic perspective (I am kind of Calvinistic too). Although Romans 9:20 keeps popping into my mind.

You have a very high, unbiblical view of mankind. We are sinners and do not deserve God’s mercy and grace. In fact, if grace was deserved it wouldn’t be gracious at all but legal wages for legal work.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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AMR

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You have a very high, unbiblical view of mankind. We are sinners and do not deserve God’s mercy and grace. In fact, if grace was deserved it wouldn’t be gracious at all but legal wages for legal work.
Well done and said.

Grace is getting what you don't deserve; Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.
 
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Skala

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You can't consistently be upset that God punishes you with Adam's sin while simultaneously not being upset that God counts you as just/guiltless because of Christ's obedience.

Christ is Adam #2 and thus his actions, like the first Adam, affect all who are in them (respectively)

If you think it unfair that Adam caused you to fall, you must also think it unfair that Christ caused you to be justified.
 
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Don Maurer

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Hello all, long time no see.

One of the things that is true when it comes to Devine foreknowledge and the decisions God makes is that even if God created man with free will and knew what would happen, it really makes no difference. In the bible, Man is conceived and born in sin...
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
But even if we take an unbiblical view that man is born morally neutral, or born sick in sin (as opposed to dead in sin), it would make no difference. We would still have to deal with God's foreknowledge. God created, foreknowing choices, and created anyway.

Of course there are some who go outside the bounds of Orthodox Christianity and choose (excuse pun) to believe in Open Theism. In that view God creates, but does not really know what is going to happen, and he is not really in control. The bible does not picture such a god, but speaks of God's foreknowledge in salvation itself...
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


When the bible has passages on the reason for God's creation of an innocent Adam and why God allows the human race to fall into sin, of course most Calvinists will think of books like Job and Gods discourse on his sovereignty at the end of Job, or more likely they will think of statements in Romans 9....
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

God has the right, as the Divine potter to make each vessel into whatever he chooses. He can make vessels fitted only for destruction. In fact, God is just even if he makes all vessels fitted for destruction. As God, he can do as he pleases. Of course God has a nature, and it is in his nature to hate sin. But it is also in his nature to desire to show his glory, and that is why sin came into existence. If God decreed that all are sinners, then where is the glory of his mercy? If God decrees all to be justified, then where is the glory of his wrath? So then, for God to manifest the full glory of his person, he must decree to make some pots fitted to destruction and some pots fitted for glory. So why did God decree that some be sinners (or that some have the free will to sin?)... for his glory.

Soli Deo Gloria

Now God had the three persons of the trinity in
 
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jimmyjimmy

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One more things to consider:

All of life works in such a way that we suffer or benefit from others, especially others who represent us, like politicians, monarchs, and parents. Westerners have a very individualistic mindset, but the rest of the world understands that our actions affect everyone.

For instance, if your father works hard and is wise with his money, and teaches his children to do the same, he will bring financial prosperity to many generations. Conversely, if he is a lazy drunk he will bring financial hardship to many generations. Is the later unfair but the former OK? Why?
 
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