Why did God make it so animals need to eat in order to survive?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Anytime you have something other than the supposition that only mutations produced all life from an alleged single life form of long long ago, let me know. . . . .

Oh, thought you'd never ask! Well, in addition to mutation, there's recombination, genetic drift, sexual selection, natural selection, and of course random world events.

 

[justlookinla]

Then you would agree that what one imagines to be true would shape one's worldview.

The belief that one is the product of only the creative impetus of mutation would surely shape one's worldview.

Not as it applies to populations. Try again.

As it applies to individual life forms which are grouped into populations.

I doubt the sincerity of this statement, based on your response to this post where you were provided exactly that by a fellow Christian.

Not a single thing offered produced a new life form. And of course you're not going to offer anything either.

Not seeing what? the imaginary?

Imaginary only to the blind.

Where?

"Apparently, I am antileprechauns, antipixies, anti-extraterrestrial aliens, antiBermuda Triangle, antigremlins, anti-elves, antignomes, and antifairies. The spirits are busy."

You said, "Apparently many here give you time concerning your constant 'critique' of the bible, which you've never read."

Asking afterwards if you got it right is a sign of confusion on your part.

And still no answer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You asked for that one.

You're true to form.

Back-peddling noted.

That you believe that perpetual motion machines exist is also noted. Science much?

Go back and read my statement. I stand by it in the context in which it was offered. Your attempt to change it failed.

 

[justlookinla]

Oh, thought you'd never ask! Well, in addition to mutation, there's recombination, genetic drift, sexual selection, natural selection, and of course random world events.

Which one of these, recombination, genetic drift, sexual selection, natural selection or random world events would produce new life forms? Just pick one and give evidence for it.

Eliminate mutation from the equation.

 

[Davian]

The belief that one is the product of only the creative impetus of mutation would surely shape one's worldview.

Then we are agreed that what one imagines to be true would shape one's worldview.

As it applies to individual life forms which are grouped into populations.

Populations of life forms are still 'life'.

Not a single thing offered produced a new life form. And of course you're not going to offer anything either.

No, it does not address your straw man argument.

Imaginary only to the blind.

And to you, by all appearances.. It is not like you can show that this 'spiritual' exists, is it? You must not be able to see it either. You may claim to, but I don't believe you.

"Apparently, I am antileprechauns, antipixies, anti-extraterrestrial aliens, antiBermuda Triangle, antigremlins, anti-elves, antignomes, and antifairies. The spirits are busy."

Indeed they are.

And still no answer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. In post #72 you asked, "You're speaking of yourself, right?", to which I responded, "Nope".

Do I have to remember all of this for both of us?

You're true to form.

I only follow your lead.

Go back and read my statement. I stand by it in the context in which it was offered. Your attempt to change it failed.

You said, "It has to do with the fact that there's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine." Feel free to rephrase it to allow for your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc.

 

[Ryukil]

To justlookinla:

Claiming that there is no definitive basis for morality without God is probably true. But if you knew for certain that there was no God, would you go and murder your neighbor? I hope not.
Any moron can see that nature is survival of the fittest. That's the way it operates. But in a way, with our rational thought, that part of us that separates us from the animals, we have evolved BEYOND the animal part of ourselves. The whole point of morality is to make the world better for ourselves and each other. We don't have to operate like animals anymore. We don't have to act like chimpanzees and commit genocide. When we have primal urges, we have to say to ourselves, "That's irrational. That is the primitive part of my brain urging me to violence or sexual misconduct. I am a human. I am beyond that."
Even if there were no God, I would not want to live in a world where people just randomly murder each other, or steal from each other all the time, etc. Nobody would want to live in that world! Which is why we do our best to do these things.
I mean did you never think that part of the reason religion exists is to give people a reason to act moral? I mean if people need the fear of hellfire to make them act moral...I think it's more respectable to act moral because you want the world to be a better place.
Just because there is no absolute basis for morals doesn't mean it's okay to go out and be an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

 

[justlookinla]

Then we are agreed that what one imagines to be true would shape one's worldview.

Then we are agreed that one's faith shapes one's worldview?

Populations of life forms are still 'life'.

No, they're a collection of life forms. Individual life forms are life.

No, it does not address your straw man argument.

The view that all life forms are produced only by mutation isn't a straw man argument, even though it's an erroneous one. You failed to offer any other impetus which created humanity from an alleged single life form of long long ago.

And to you, by all appearances.. It is not like you can show that this 'spiritual' exists, is it? You must not be able to see it either. You may claim to, but I don't believe you.

That's because you haven't experienced it. Your making decisions, and establishing beliefs, from a position of spiritual ignorance.

Indeed they are.

Indeed.

You are wrong. In post #72 you asked, "You're speaking of yourself, right?", to which I responded, "Nope".

Do I have to remember all of this for both of us?

If you've read the bible you would have found your identification with the antichrist spirit. Miss that part? I'd be glad to point it out, seeing that you really haven't read the bible.

You said, "It has to do with the fact that there's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine." Feel free to rephrase it to allow for your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc.

You're attempting to rephrase it to include God/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell. The original post was in response to none of those things.

 

[justlookinla]

To justlookinla:

Claiming that there is no definitive basis for morality without God is probably true. But if you knew for certain that there was no God, would you go and murder your neighbor? I hope not.

What would be the source, within the individual, for morality? Is morality, the idea of right and wrong, strictly driven by DNA or is there something else?

Any moron can see that nature is survival of the fittest. That's the way it operates.

Well, it sure didn't take you long to stoop to disparaging the character of those who disagree with you. Hope this is just an aberration and not going to be part of your responses.

But in a way, with our rational thought, that part of us that separates us from the animals, we have evolved BEYOND the animal part of ourselves. The whole point of morality is to make the world better for ourselves and each other. We don't have to operate like animals anymore. We don't have to act like chimpanzees and commit genocide. When we have primal urges, we have to say to ourselves, "That's irrational. That is the primitive part of my brain urging me to violence or sexual misconduct. I am a human. I am beyond that."

Again, is that strictly DNA driven or is there a part of humans which isn't naturalistic which drives morality, drives behavior?

Even if there were no God, I would not want to live in a world where people just randomly murder each other, or steal from each other all the time, etc. Nobody would want to live in that world! Which is why we do our best to do these things.

I agree, I wouldn't want to live in a world like that either.

I mean did you never think that part of the reason religion exists is to give people a reason to act moral? I mean if people need the fear of hellfire to make them act moral...I think it's more respectable to act moral because you want the world to be a better place.

Personally, I don't fear hellfire and it's not the impetus which affects my thoughts and behavior.

Just because there is no absolute basis for morals doesn't mean it's okay to go out and be an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

As someone once said, "it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness".

 

[Davian]

Then we are agreed that one's faith shapes one's worldview?

Or, in my case, lack of faith.

No, they're a collection of life forms. Individual life forms are life.

A distinction without a difference.

The view that all life forms are produced only by mutation isn't a straw man argument, even though it's an erroneous one. You failed to offer any other impetus which created humanity from an alleged single life form of long long ago.

That would be your straw-man argument. I cannot offer support to what science does not say.

That's because you haven't experienced it. Your making decisions, and establishing beliefs, from a position of spiritual ignorance.

By all indicators, you are in the same boat, even if you have convinced yourself otherwise.

Indeed.

If you've read the bible you would have found your identification with the antichrist spirit. Miss that part? I'd be glad to point it out, seeing that you really haven't read the bible.

I missed it because I do not identify with it. You are the one that thinks it sounds scary. You may as well worn me that I am also going to get a lump of coal in my stocking come Christmas. It is all so unbelievable.

You're attempting to rephrase it to include God/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell. The original post was in response to none of those things.

You said, "It has to do with the fact that there's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine." Then you tell me that your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc. function like perpetual motion machines, able to work free of entropy - you created your own conundrum. Why should I accept the existence of [equivalents to] perpetual motion machines, on your say so?

 

[Ryukil]

I wasn't calling YOU personally a moron. I was saying that everyone agrees that nature does operate that way because it is manifestly obvious. Do you not agree that nature involves animals eating each other and competing over scare resources?

And I'm agreeing with you that without God there probably is no absolute basis for morality. That's why we need to make our own. That's why we HAVE made our own.

 

[justlookinla]

Or, in my case, lack of faith.

Your rejection of Christianity doesn't elminate faith from your life. You have faith that you're the product of only random/chance, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanisms acting on an alleged single life form from long long ago, don't you?

A distinction without a difference.

Of course there's a difference. A population isn't a life form.

That would be your straw-man argument. I cannot offer support to what science does not say.

From UC-Berkley....

"A mutation is a change in DNA, the hereditary material of life. An organism's DNA affects how it looks, how it behaves, and its physiology. So a change in an organism's DNA can cause changes in all aspects of its life."

DNA and Mutations

​

Now, if you have an impetus which changes a life form other than random/chance mutation, why not offer it? We both know the answer.....there no other creator in atheistic Darwinist creationism.

By all indicators, you are in the same boat, even if you have convinced yourself otherwise.

Oh, I'm not the one who's being controlled by the antichrist spirit, denying Jesus Christ and the existence of God as creator. We're far from being in the same boat.

I missed it because I do not identify with it. You are the one that thinks it sounds scary. You may as well worn me that I am also going to get a lump of coal in my stocking come Christmas. It is all so unbelievable.

Simply because you don't identify with it doesn't mean it isn't true.

You said,

"It has to do with the fact that there's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine." Then you tell me that your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc. function like perpetual motion machines, able to work free of entropy - you created your own conundrum. Why should I accept the existence of [equivalents to] perpetual motion machines, on your say so?

Again, you're attempting to change the context of my comment to include the spiritual realm. It's not going to work.

 

[justlookinla]

I wasn't calling YOU personally a moron. I was saying that everyone agrees that nature does operate that way because it is manifestly obvious. Do you not agree that nature involves animals eating each other and competing over scare resources?

Sure.

And I'm agreeing with you that without God there probably is no absolute basis for morality. That's why we need to make our own. That's why we HAVE made our own.

Actually, it's something within us, not DNA, which gives us our morality.

 

[Davian]

Your rejection of Christianity doesn't elminate faith from your life. You have faith that you're the product of only random/chance, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanisms acting on an alleged single life form from long long ago, don't you?

No, don't care. Would it affect the price of milk at the market? No.

Of course there's a difference. A population isn't a life form.

In the context of the 'survival of the fittest', the subject is the population.

From UC-Berkley....

"A mutation is a change in DNA, the hereditary material of life. An organism's DNA affects how it looks, how it behaves, and its physiology. So a change in an organism's DNA can cause changes in all aspects of its life."

DNA and Mutations

​

Now, if you have an impetus which changes a life form other than random/chance mutation, why not offer it? We both know the answer.....there no other creator in atheistic Darwinist creationism.

No mention of "atheistic Darwinist creationism" on that link.

Oh, I'm not the one who's being controlled by the antichrist spirit, denying Jesus Christ and the existence of God as creator. We're far from being in the same boat.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, correct? We are in the same boat.

Simply because you don't identify with it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Your opinion does not make it true.

Again, you're attempting to change the context of my comment to include the spiritual realm. It's not going to work.

Too late. Once you acknowledged that your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc. work free of entropy, you branded into the same class as perpetual motions machines, of which you said, as a fact, do not exist.

Tell me why I should not dismiss them as impossible.

 

[justlookinla]

No, don't care. Would it affect the price of milk at the market? No.

It affects one's worldview.

In the context of the 'survival of the fittest', the subject is the population.

In the survival of the fittest, the subject is the actual life forms that survive or die.

No mention of "atheistic Darwinist creationism" on that link.

Mention of the only creative impetus of atheistic Darwinist creationism. Mutation.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, correct? We are in the same boat.

Sure. Simply find the passages and apply yourself to them. You're quickly identified.

Your opinion does not make it true.

Your identification in scripture makes it true.

Too late. Once you acknowledged that your god/spirits/angels/souls/Heaven/Hell/etc. work free of entropy, you branded into the same class as perpetual motions machines, of which you said, as a fact, do not exist.

God/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell are in the spiritual realm. My response, in context for anyone who wishes to look, was concerning the earthly realm. Your attempt to change my answer has failed.

Tell me why I should not dismiss them as impossible.

Dismiss what as impossible?

 

[Davian]

It affects one's worldview.

The price of milk?

In the survival of the fittest, the subject is the actual life forms that survive or die.

Not really. Populations go extinct, not individuals.

Mention of the only creative impetus of atheistic Darwinist creationism. Mutation.

Too much straw there.

Sure. Simply find the passages and apply yourself to them. You're quickly identified.

Do you think I am happy that we are in the same boat?

Your identification in scripture makes it true.

If scripture were reality, and not religion.

God/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell are in the spiritual realm. My response, in context for anyone who wishes to look, was concerning the earthly realm. Your attempt to change my answer has failed.

Dismiss what as impossible?

You described your god/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell as working free of entropy. How is that not impossible? Can you offer anything more than religious handwaving?

 

[Ryukil]

Sure.



Actually, it's something within us, not DNA, which gives us our morality.

Do you think if God didn't exist people wouldn't come up with rules like don't kill, don't steal? I really think they would. I mean Chinese people living 2000 years ago never heard of Jesus Christ, they had law and order.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Mention of the only creative impetus of atheistic Darwinist creationism. Mutation. . . . .

Without natural selection, mutation is merely noise. It takes mutation and natural selection working together.

 

[ChetSinger]

...Animals competing in evolutionary arms races to kill each other is a cruel process. Why would God endorse such a system, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest?
That applies only to carnivores though...

A close reading of Gen 1 indicates that the original design criteria for both beast and man included vegetarianism. I myself spent several months eating a near-vegetarian diet and experienced a measureable improvement in my health. I'm thinking of returning to it again.

...But anyway, why would God make it so that humans die without food? Surely he knew that, in the future, people would die because they didn't have enough money to get food. A lot of people, I mean.
If the human body is so "perfect" as creationists claim, why can't it just generate its own energy? lol.
There are just so many simple things like this that are missed in the debate between creationism and atheism.

Eating is one of the pleasures of life. And God put Adam in a pre-planted garden where every tasty thing grew. That was a good deal. But after he rebelled, part of his punishment was that he became responsible for feeding himself. And that's why we can go hungry; sustaining ourselves is now our job.

My $.02, anyway.

 

[justlookinla]

The price of milk?

Creation by only random/chance mutation offers much more to one's worldview than the price of milk.

Not really. Populations go extinct, not individuals.

The change is on the individual level within populations. The population isn't a life form, the individuals in the population are the life forms.

Too much straw there.

No straw whatsoever, according to UC-Berkley.

Do you think I am happy that we are in the same boat?

We aren't in the same boat. Your boat was created from only alleged random/chance events, my boat had a designer and creator. You boat is going to sink one of these days, mine stays afloat.

If scripture were reality, and not religion.

Scripture is reality. The reality is that you're controlled by an antichrist spirit.

You described your god/spirits/angels/souls/heaven/hell as working free of entropy. How is that not impossible? Can you offer anything more than religious handwaving?

My original answer was concerning the natural, humanity. You then asked another question concerning the spiritual. Two questions, two different answers.

The spiritual is free of entropy. Can you offer anything but antichrist handwaving?

 

[justlookinla]

Do you think if God didn't exist people wouldn't come up with rules like don't kill, don't steal? I really think they would. I mean Chinese people living 2000 years ago never heard of Jesus Christ, they had law and order.

The question is why do they come up with those laws? What, within mankind, are the source of those laws?

 

[justlookinla]

Without natural selection, mutation is merely noise. It takes mutation and natural selection working together.

No sir. Mutation is the sole, only, creator of new life forms in atheistic Darwinist creationism. All natural selection does is allegedly take these changes and moves them forward, if the criteria is correct. Natural selection does not produce a single new life form, it only acts on existing life forms.