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How is all of this not narcissism?
Watch any human being attempt something along those lines and he/she will immediately be called selfish, egocentric, narcissist... how can these concepts be relative and absolutely not apply when it comes to god?
It's amazing how all kinds of supposedly moral values get turned upside down when it comes to god... talk about double standard.
How is all of this not narcissism?
Watch any human being attempt something along those lines and he/she will immediately be called selfish, egocentric, narcissist... how can these concepts be relative and absolutely not apply when it comes to god?
It's amazing how all kinds of supposedly moral values get turned upside down when it comes to god... talk about double standard.
Good is not perfect.
There isn't a basis to assume we had no free will in paradise, the Garden of Eden.
There is a strong basis that we did have free will there, else God needn't have instructed them with a warning (not to try to replace God, taking Judgement of even good and evil into their own hands as if ancient of days), nor could they have any need of such a warning (if there was no freedom to chose), nor an ability to reason and to choose, etc.
Why are we here on Earth?
Because here we get to choose whether to "love your neighbor as yourself" -- embrace the Good -- or choose not to and simply go the course of nature instead, that "second death".
Eve and Adam were thoughWe where not banished from heaven.. We started out on earth.. The only ones that are getting banished from heaven are satan and his angels..
I believe the universe was created as a stage, a place to sort out the contraversy between God and satan over satans claim to Godhood.. Through demonstration in our physical realm the contravery between satan and God can be worked out and satans claim to godhood can be shown to be false.. We humans play our part on this stage and we who play it right will recieve and eternal reward with God in His perfect eternity..
you stole the words out of my mouthHow is all of this not narcissism?
Watch any human being attempt something along those lines and he/she will immediately be called selfish, egocentric, narcissist... how can these concepts be relative and absolutely not apply when it comes to god?
It's amazing how all kinds of supposedly moral values get turned upside down when it comes to god... talk about double standard.
He did it because He is Love, and He wanted the whole of creation to know love and to love life and to praise Him for life and to share in the knowledge of His goodness. Of course, what we have now is a total corruption of what He created (Romans 8:19-21, John 10:10).
.. But I need to ask you, where did you get this idea that we were banished from heaven so that we could have free will? It sounds to me like it might be something that Mormons would teach, but I don't know of any scriptures in the bible that support this teaching. Did you have a particular scripture in mind as you said this?
Eve and Adam were banished from Heaven as a result of acting on their free will ; disobeying God.
That leads me to assume that God doesn't like free will. and if you try to live according to your own free will, you will be banished from Heaven.
"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20)
The entire universe belongs to the LORD GOD of the Holy Bible, Who created it. He can do whatever He pleases to it and all that live on it, and is accountable and answerable to NO ONE!
Oh, I see that I have mis-read your original statement!Eve and Adam were cast out because they acted on their free will and disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge.
It clearly tells me that Heaven is not a place suited for Free will.
I would like to know which scripture you have used to support this view.The Devil was cast out because He believed in free will. He dared to form an opinion and he was told to leave His home.
Like I said, the perfect example, the epitome of megalomania and narcissism.
Abrahamic GodAnd what "god" do you have in mind?
Abrahamic God
Oh, I see that I have mis-read your original statement!
.. so now I see that what you are saying is much clearer for me, whereas I would have said that Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden ("Paradise Earth"), yet you have used the word "Heaven" instead. Now that I understand what you are saying I can respond more helpfully! (Though, I will use the term "heaven" differently, because heaven is here with us this day (Philippians 3:20, Acts 7:55-56, Matthew 3:2)).
So what I see, is that you are making this whole issue one about free will, as though free will is a problem for a perfect world and that a world cannot be perfect if there is free will. But, I do not believe that is necessarily true. I think that it is often and usually possible to make a good decision, and that often there will be a number of good possible options. It is only sin that has a destructive consequence on the world, and not every choice we make is necessarily sin.
For instance, if I was choosing an ice cream, I could choose from a number of different flavours, and there is nothing bad about making that decision. So we can see, that in a society where everybody is making good decisions, there can still be free will.
The problem was made possible because of free will though, and it was because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. St. James tells us "Whoever knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin". But we know that God does not make life so difficult for us that every time we get dressed, we must wear the exact right clothes else it is sin. Yet, sometimes it is possible to wear clothes that we know He does not want us to wear - and then it is sin if we do that.
Also, the story of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil contains a lot of wisdom in allegory. What we know a tree to be, is something that grows, and in the case of a fruit tree, it produces a thing that we can eat of, for sustenance and pleasure. So we can consider that they had a growing knowledge of good and evil, but they had been warned to not use that knowledge of good and evil for their sustenance or pleasure. Now if we look around the world today, we can see that people routinely use the knowledge of good and evil for sustenance and pleasure (eg: "sex sells" (Matthew 5:28), "Quantity Discounts" (Proverbs 20:10), "Price Leadership to Crush Competitors" (Proverbs 3:27, Proverbs 3:29)). According to the allegorical message of the fall, there was a time when God looked upon earth and saw that it was "very good", and it pleased Him. But now we live in an age when He looks upon earth and He sees that the inclination of man's heart is always evil (though fortunately for our sake, that He is merciful: He has redeemed some to repentance, to be vessels of His Holy Spirit).
So Adam and Eve brought hell upon earth (Genesis 2:17, John 3:3, Revelation 2:7) because they were told to not use the knowledge of good and evil for their food (sustenance/pleasure etc). If they had always chosen to do good only, they'd have sustained paradise conditions.
I would like to know which scripture you have used to support this view.
Sure, but do you believe in the God that is One Being, and Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, coequal, coessential, and coeternal? This is the True God of the Holy Bible. There is NO other "god".
We are all created with a "free will", to either chose or reject the God of the Holy Bible and His plan for the salvation of lost humans. We are all sinners before a Just and Holy God, and all deserving of eternal punishment in hell. But God, Who is rich in mercy and love, has provided salvation in Himself for any sinner who will acknowledge their sins and that they deserve hell, truly repent of their sins for their heart, and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, and that He and He alone can forgive and cleanse us from our sins, and apart from Jesus Christ there is NO Hope. Then the sinner is "born-gain" and saved by the merit of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. We are then obliged to live our remaining days here on earth, in strict accordance to the Holy Bible's Teachings, and obeying the commandments of Almighty God, as we no longer belong to ourselves, but to the Lord Jesus Christ.
im searching for the truth. i do believe that there is more than this that we have; material world , humanity etc.. but these days i'm not sure if i even want God to be real..
As for the Christian God, The trinity, The holy spirit.. i dont believe these things.. i cant believe anything blindly..
I have prayed a thousand times and yet God has not shown Himself. I don't know if it would be better that He is not real or that He is ignoring me.OK, then I suggest that if you are seriously seeking to know the Truth, that you ask Jesus Christ to reveal to you the True God, and I can guarantee you that He will. There is only ONE God, and that is the God of the Holy Bible. But only those who seek to know Him sincerely, will be known to by Him. Only God the Holy Spirit can grant us a real understanding about the nature of God. There is no other "god" in the entire world.
I have prayed a thousand times and yet God has not shown Himself. I don't know if it would be better that He is not real or that He is ignoring me.
I have prayed a thousand times and yet God has not shown Himself. I don't know if it would be better that He is not real or that He is ignoring me.
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