Why did God create the devil?

[squint]

including EVIL.

God "created" EVIL. Said so Himself in Isaiah 45:7!

What many, no MOST, fail to realize is that HE Is Greater than any "thing." What is EVIL to LOVE? God wil take great pleasure in eradicating ALL of evil's works. He IS ABLE! Love can DO THAT!

 

[Ormly]

Lucifer was created perfect

A very interesting observation because perfection intimates, Divinity. Divinity can never die. In the scriptures we see in Lucifer, iniquity, "found in him". We know that no iniquity can stand in the presence of God. His Glory would destroy it. Hence, he is cast out.

Iniquity is born in the "unsubmitted freewill" of God's creation. In that sense it can be said that God created evil. Certainly, He claims that responsility. However, it must be so that a freewill be given for the love He desires, He desires it to be freely given Him. For mankind, iniquity must be and can only be dealt with by a submitted freewill. Only man has that privilege. So choose, we must.

 

[squint]

A very interesting observation because perfection intimates, Divinity. Divinity can never die. In the scriptures we see in Lucifer, iniquity, "found in him". We know that no iniquity can stand in the presence of God. His Glory would destroy it. Hence, he is cast out.

Many read that scripture quote about Lucifer being "created perfect" and FALSELY equate what "perfect" means.

Lucifer being perfect was perfect IN HIS WAYS...

What are the WAYS of a PERFECT DEVIL? It sure ain't perfection as in God Perfect. It ain't perfection as in man perfect...

It's DEVIL perfect. A PERFECT resistor. Just like God created him.

Iniquity is born in the "unsubmitted freewill" of God's creation. In that sense it can be said that God created evil. Certainly, He claims that responsility. However, it must be so that a freewill be given for the love He desires, He desires it to be freely given Him. For mankind, iniquity must be and can only be dealt with by a submitted freewill. Only man has that privilege. So choose, we must.

If you acknowledge the fact that either God or the devil CAN "influence" the minds of mankind, then your "freewill" equations are out the door.

God is not "in need" of "freewill" decisions. God is not in "need" period.

God created the devil and God will DESTROY the devil when He is finished using that power.

In the meantime we, as His children are advised to love in the midst of Satan's darkness...as a portion of God's Sharing His Love with US. We get to "reflect" what He has given us.

 

[Ormly]

If you acknowledge the fact that either God or the devil CAN "influence" the minds of mankind, then your "freewill" equations are out the door.

God is not "in need" of "freewill" decisions. God is not in "need" period.

Oh twister of words, I used the word, "desire" not "need".

In the meantime we, as His children are advised to love in the midst of Satan's darkness...as a portion of God's Sharing His Love with US. We get to "reflect" what He has given us.

Who is the "we" in this and what is it that the "we" you speak of, have arbitrarilly received?

 

[squint]

Oh twister of words, I used the word, "desire" not "need".

God does not have a "desire" for fickle, self serving, self righteous, self will wrought LOVE. His Love does not reflect "that way."

Who is the "we" in this and what is it that the "we" you speak of, have arbitrarilly received?

All mankind are Gods offspring, as taught by Paul in Acts 17:23-29.

But as you well know by now, that is not "all" that mankind consists of.

 

[Ormly]

God does not have a "desire" for fickle, self serving, self righteous, self will wrought LOVE. His Love does not reflect "that way."



All mankind are Gods offspring, as taught by Paul in Acts 17:23-29.

But as you well know by now, that is not "all" that mankind consists of.

I won't be contributing this nonsense.

 

[squint]

I won't be contributing this nonsense.

Ormly, I do believe that ALL MANKIND are Gods offspring, just as Paul taught...and that includes YOU.

I also do not condemn YOU for condemning your fellow man.

When you see that action is not you, we will be friends.

 

[champuru]

Well I guess you would say that the devil created himself because God created Lucifer the angel which was good. But i guess God gave him free will and Lucifer decided to be evil.

 

[squint]

Well I guess you would say that the devil created himself because God created Lucifer the angel which was good. But i guess God gave him free will and Lucifer decided to be evil.

Scriptures NEVER present that Satan was once holy and then made some bad decisions. Lucifer was "made" as A PERFECT DEVIL...emphasis on DEVIL.

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Scriptures NEVER present that Satan was once holy and then made some bad decisions. Lucifer was "made" as A PERFECT DEVIL...emphasis on DEVIL.

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

ezekiel 28:12-19 states differently

vs 15 was perfect till inquity was found in him

 

[A Brother In Christ]

God does not have a "desire" for fickle, self serving, self righteous, self will wrought LOVE. His Love does not reflect "that way."



All mankind are Gods offspring, as taught by Paul in Acts 17:23-29.

But as you well know by now, that is not "all" that mankind consists of.

But 1 John 3:10 states there are children of God and children of the devil

 

[squint]

But 1 John 3:10 states there are children of God and children of the devil

No doubt.

In the same lump there is both a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor/wrath.

Maybe you're starting to get the picture?

 

[k2svpete]

I've never posted in this section so if this topic is already covered, please point me in the right direction.

That being said, allow me to ask the following questions:

1. If God brought Satan into existence, then doesn’t it follow that God is the origin of evil?

Romans 5 -
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Sin was brought into the world through the disobedience of Adam, not by anything else.

2. How can God hate evil and yet allow the Devil to exist when he possesses the omnipotent power to destroy him?

Romans 5 -
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The victory over death has already been achieved, it is up to us to take up the gift of life over death.

3. If the Devil is a fallen angel as Christians teach, who tempted him or caused him to fall?

There is no scriptural basis for this assertion. Ezekiel ch 28 is frequently sited but this passage is a prophecy against the Prince of Tyre (an actual ruler).

4. How could he be tempted if there was no Satan to tempt him?

As above. James 1 -
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

5. Would God create him if he knew he would turn out diabolical?

As above there is no created 'devil'.

6. If God did not know how he would turn out, then how could he be all wise?

God created man, despite knowing that we would sin. It is an amazing testament of his love for us that despite knowing this and that his son would have to die to justify us, he still created us to have fellowship with him.

7. If God did know how Satan would turn out, then isn’t God the sponsor of evil?

The carnal mind is at odds with God's purpose for us, any wrongdoing is from us. God extends the offer to us all but not everyone will take up that offer. His love for us is such that he knows that only a few will be found acceptable but in order to have those few the rest need to be there as well. As in the parable of the wheat and the tares, it is not until harvest that the seperation can be done.

Romans 8 -
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[AgapeBible]

Squint, I must say you come across as insensitive and cold-hearted. If God creates and uses evil for his own purposes, if he created the Devil evil on purpose, then wouldn't some of the blame for Satan's atrocities fall upon God? After all, God created Satan evil, if God really did cause such disasters to happen and for Satan to constantly tempt us and push us to sin, with us being weak and powerless to resist temptation, what kind of a God would he be? Wouldn't that make him a bad , cruel and evil god?


That is why I believe in free will. God loves us and did not make us robots or slaves, he wants us to love him and come to him of our own choosing and free will. God is good, loving, kind, merciful and all wise.

 

[squint]

Squint, I must say you come across as insensitive and cold-hearted.

Oh? Why is that again? Could it be because I believe God loves ALL mankind and SAVES them all?

Of course you perhaps are very tender hearted, believing that God burns people alive in eternal conscious torment?

Let's start then by using FAIR COMPARATIVE MEASURES...then we can see who is really being "insensitive."

If God creates and uses evil for his own purposes, if he created the Devil evil on purpose,

You know, we may not LIKE the fact that scriptures present GOD MADE ALL THINGS. That MEANS there are NO exceptions. Whatever IS, IS so OF GOD.

then wouldn't some of the blame for Satan's atrocities fall upon God?

Indulge me for a moment here an conceptualize that GOD IS Great Enough to ERADICATE EVERY EVIL WORKING that EVER TRANSPIRED and make it seem like NOTHING in comparison to HIS OVERCOMING GLORY.

IF we can get our heads around that FACT...we may then also see that perhaps, just perhaps God has purposes with everything that IS.

After all, God created Satan evil, if God really did cause such disasters to happen and for Satan to constantly tempt us and push us to sin, with us being weak and powerless to resist temptation, what kind of a God would he be?

Well, let's see. I could say that we, suffering under evil, sin and death would perhaps have a first hand experience in LONG SUFFERING which is a quality of LOVE?

And also perhaps we would have a first hand experience in the receipt of DIVINE MERCY?

IF God created us, mankind, as His children/offspring, just having a bunch of spoiled kids sitting around on clouds is probably not what God has in mind for us, AND eternity is a very long time.

Need me to go on?

Wouldn't that make him a bad , cruel and evil god?

NOT if He takes care of the ENTIRE MATTER in a MIRACULOUS way. I mean really, who wants to be bound into a pile of wet dust here on earth for all of eternity??? That is NOT my idea of "heaven." Death serves His Purposes as well.

And then, and then, there are matters of JUDGMENT. God LOVES Judgment. I am sure He takes a GREAT DEAL of delight in the entirety of the matters that transpire here on earth with everyone and all their concerns and pressures. In fact HE even "applies" and "supplies" those pressures unto us.

That is why I believe in free will.

Sorry. Freewill is ridiculous from a scriptural perspective. NOT possible for MANY reasons.

God loves us and did not make us robots or slaves, he wants us to love him and come to him of our own choosing and free will. God is good, loving, kind, merciful and all wise.

Sure. God wants our self serving, self indulgent, self centered, limited self wrought LOVE?

Here is a clue...God is NOT IN NEED. God does NOT NEED YOUR LOVE.

If you "think" by performing certain mancentric love acts that God is going to pin your wings on ya, and that God NEEDS you to do that in order to HAVE your love and LET you into heaven...you are sorely mistaken.

God IS Love. He will not be changing anytime soon.

Your cold hearted friend...

squint

 

[AgapeBible]

Hmmmm, hold it just a minute, are you saying you don't believe in the eternity of hell? The Bible talks about hell where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. Do you say that either the souls of unbelievers who go to hell will be there temporarily or not everyone who is not saved will go to hell? Who do you think goes to hell, and is it eternal, or do you think they stay there until their sins are burned away and they are purified?

I must confess something, in the past I've had major trouble with the Bible and conflict with God because of what the bible says and how it is unfair. i have to go to bed now. I'll talk about it in the morning.

 

[squint]

Hmmmm, hold it just a minute, are you saying you don't believe in the eternity of hell?

Uh, NO...I fully accept every eternal torture, damnation and wrath scripture. All of them, and NOT in a self serving selective manner as some do.

The Bible talks about hell where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. Do you say that either the souls of unbelievers who go to hell will be there temporarily or not everyone who is not saved will go to hell?

Before I enquire of other's reflections of The Word, I try to understand their presentation before engagement.

Who do you think goes to hell, and is it eternal,

The devil and his messengers who are FOUND within mankind, as Jesus clearly showed.

or do you think they stay there until their sins are burned away and they are purified?

Sorry, that ain't happenin' either. Those who "go in" are not coming OUT, ever.

I must confess something, in the past I've had major trouble with the Bible and conflict with God because of what the bible says and how it is unfair. i have to go to bed now. I'll talk about it in the morning.

Good idea and fair consideration.


enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

Hmmmm, hold it just a minute, are you saying you don't believe in the eternity of hell? The Bible talks about hell where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. Do you say that either the souls of unbelievers who go to hell will be there temporarily or not everyone who is not saved will go to hell? Who do you think goes to hell, and is it eternal, or do you think they stay there until their sins are burned away and they are purified?

I must confess something, in the past I've had major trouble with the Bible and conflict with God because of what the bible says and how it is unfair. i have to go to bed now. I'll talk about it in the morning.

No I don't. Reading the words and studying them you'll see that it refers to the grave. As something decomposes heat is released and there are plenty of worms in the ground. There are numerous passages referring to this and none (when read in context) about a place of eternal damnation and torture. Hands up who thinks that God is so cruel to torture people for the rest of time?

 

[squint]

No I don't. Reading the words and studying them you'll see that it refers to the grave.

Pete, this is gonna be real easy for you.

Death is going to the Lake of Fire, which most believers consider to be "final hell."

Death is not coming back. Nor is evil. We are promised permanent eradication of these workings. That's "hell" for them. The death of death. I don't disagree about the ambiguous usage of the term by translators.

As something decomposes heat is released and there are plenty of worms in the ground. There are numerous passages referring to this and none (when read in context) about a place of eternal damnation and torture. Hands up who thinks that God is so cruel to torture people for the rest of time?

Anti-Christ spirits will not be coming out of the Lake of Fire either Pete. That is the permanent disposal area for those workings and workers. People however will NOT be eternally consciously tortured. Not a one of them.

 

[AgapeBible]

Well, that's a relief, because I can't stand the thought of human souls of people who have not done anything really bad suffering torture for all eternity. What kind of god would do that? Satan and his demons and evil spirits however deserve to suffer in the lake of fire. If someone completely gives themselves over to the devil and toward doing evil in this life, like Hitler, Mussolini, Sadam Hussein and those school shooters or drug dealing gangsters and absolutely refuses to repent of their sins than they should go to hell. There are some atheist intellectuals who spent lifetimes trying to prove there is no god, I am not sure if they deserve to go to hell, it is not for me to judge. I probably deserve to go to hell for my own sins but I have repented of them and I chose to serve Jesus Christ. I agree there are bad people who act as if they are encouraged by the devil, but they have the choice of coming to Christ if someone will witness to them and tell them the gospel and how Christ's love can set them free. 'Course, doesn't mean they will accept Christ. We have a choice whether to accept God or reject him.


No lets talk about the grave, about what happened to souls of the dead before Jesus came to earth. There was a place called sheol, the grave in Hebrew, very unpleasant, dark cold and gloomy where those who died went, but it was not a place of torture like hell. There was also a sort of heaven called Abraham's bosom where really good and faithful Jews who made sacrifices to pay for their sins went. Jesus told a parable about the beggar named Lazarus and the rich man who died and the beggar went to Abraham's bosom and the rich man to gehenna, a hell in sheol where souls of the wicked were punished. Obviously the rich man must have been wicked and a great sinner, apparently he was proud and did not repent of his sins. Perhaps his sin was that the poor beggar sat at his gate every day and he had plenty of food and money and never helped the poor man out, never gave him anything. So there must have been a place of punishment and a place of reward, and I imagine before Jesus came it was works based, I wonder if it was only for Jews who worshiped the one true God? Then again god has made himself known all throughout the world through creation, in different religions there are kernels of truth and turth in the Greek philosophies.