Why did God create the devil?

[loveiseverywhere]

I've never posted in this section so if this topic is already covered, please point me in the right direction.

That being said, allow me to ask the following questions:

1. If God brought Satan into existence, then doesn’t it follow that God is the origin of evil?
2. How can God hate evil and yet allow the Devil to exist when he possesses the omnipotent power to destroy him?
3. If the Devil is a fallen angel as Christians teach, who tempted him or caused him to fall?
4. How could he be tempted if there was no Satan to tempt him?
5. Would God create him if he knew he would turn out diabolical?
6. If God did not know how he would turn out, then how could he be all wise?
7. If God did know how Satan would turn out, then isn’t God the sponsor of evil?

 

[squint]

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Satan and his messengers are no exception to the "all things."

God will obviously take a great deal of pleasure in the demonstration of His Divine Superiority over the entirety of every evil work and to also show how even those things ultimately serve His Purposes of Pleasure.

enjoy!

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[loveiseverywhere]

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Satan and his messengers are no exception to the "all things."

God will obviously take a great deal of pleasure in the demonstration of His Divine Superiority over the entirety of every evil work and to also show how even those things ultimately serve His Purposes of Pleasure.

enjoy!

squint

Okay, so let me get this straight. If a baby is stabbed 144 times by its mother because she didn't want to have it, that pleases God? Imagine every sick, twisted evil thing done to a child. That serves God's purpose?

 

[squint]

Okay, so let me get this straight. If a baby is stabbed 144 times by its mother because she didn't want to have it, that pleases God? Imagine every sick, twisted evil thing done to a child. That serves God's purpose?

Maybe your God needs to be a little bigger than the problem?

Hope of Him will prove that someday, whether we know it now or not. Hope of Him is formed in that "issue" and Hope has eternal value.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

My God? My God is the God of Israel. My God is a loving God, one who reveals Himself through his word. My God made the universe and eveything in it, so he's pretty darn big.

However, you are not providing me with answers that make sense. I've been able to make sense out of the crucifixion and a lot of other things that were hard for me to understand. So, if there is anyone who can take on this question without givine me a "non-answer" in invite you to do so, because I'm trying hard to understand.

Thanks.

 

[squint]

My God? My God is the God of Israel. My God is a loving God, one who reveals Himself through his word. My God made the universe and eveything in it, so he's pretty darn big.

However, you are not providing me with answers that make sense.

There is no "sense" to "evil." There was never "sense" meant to be had from evil. In the context of "all things" however it is perfectly within Gods Purview to both allow and to test "all things" to the measure of eternity IF He is great enough to make "good" or even perfection come about or be enhanced because of "evil." Evil can be judged, (The Word does so) condemned, (The Word does so) and eventually and permanently set aside (our Promise and our Hope from The Word.)

I've been able to make sense out of the crucifixion and a lot of other things that were hard for me to understand.

If the life of God in Christ was used as an example of God Himself also suffering under the hand of evil, for it's eventual eradication, who can complain?

So, if there is anyone who can take on this question without givine me a "non-answer" in invite you to do so, because I'm trying hard to understand.

The reality of Gods allowance and creation of evil will remain a FACT inspite of all the pollyanna spinning that believers try to place upon it in defense of God.

I say God is in no need of such defense and it is idiocy to do so.

The Word promises not only the perpetuation of evil, but the arousal of it to ever greater abominations in preparation for it's finality, and that one you can take to the bank.

enjoy!

squint

 

[loveiseverywhere]

There is no "sense" to "evil." There was never "sense" meant to be had from evil. In the context of "all things" however it is perfectly within Gods Purview to both allow and to test "all things" to the measure of eternity IF He is great enough to make "good" or even perfection come about or be enhanced because of "evil." Evil can be judged, (The Word does so) condemned, (The Word does so) and eventually and permanently set aside (our Promise and our Hope from The Word.)



If the life of God in Christ was used as an example of God Himself also suffering under the hand of evil, for it's eventual eradication, who can complain?


The reality of Gods allowance and creation of evil will remain a FACT inspite of all the pollyanna spinning that believers try to place upon it in defense of God.

I say God is in no need of such defense and it is idiocy to do so.

The Word promises not only the perpetuation of evil, but the arousal of it to ever greater abominations in preparation for it's finality, and that one you can take to the bank.

enjoy!

squint

That made more sense. Thank you!

 

[IamAdopted]

1. If God brought Satan into existence, then doesn’t it follow that God is the origin of evil?
2. How can God hate evil and yet allow the Devil to exist when he possesses the omnipotent power to destroy him?
3. If the Devil is a fallen angel as Christians teach, who tempted him or caused him to fall?
4. How could he be tempted if there was no Satan to tempt him?
5. Would God create him if he knew he would turn out diabolical?
6. If God did not know how he would turn out, then how could he be all wise?
7. If God did know how Satan would turn out, then isn’t God the sponsor of evil?

Well lets begin from the beginning.. God didn't create the devil. He created an angel. He was the most beautiful angel..
2.This angel was cast out of Gods Kingdom thrown down to the earthly rhelm.. God had given all dominion over to Adam on earth.. When Adam sinned He gave up that dominion and gave it away to the devil.. This is why the devil is called the god of this world..
3. Now to the answer of this I really cannot say.. My apologies. I will study on this though through Scripture. But from what I glean from scripture is that within himself pride came in..
4. well he himself is satan
5. Gods plan for salvation was always for Christ to be the savior of the world. Why did Adam sin? He was created in the Image of God? Was it really satan that caused Adam to sin?
God is all wise. Now where the enemy wanted to be God and the enemy being a created being how could this enemy be God? We do not read that the angels were created in the image of God now do we?

 

[squint]

Well lets begin from the beginning.. God didn't create the devil. He created an angel. He was the most beautiful angel..

And that is patent baloney from the "freewill" camp. A PERFECT DEVIL remains a DEVIL in any case. If the devil was created PERFECT in "all his ways" (Ezekiel 28:15) those perfect ways are STILL the perfect ways of the DEVIL.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is zero scriptural presentation that the devil was anything but a liar and a murderer from the beginning according to Jesus.

2.This angel was cast out of Gods Kingdom thrown down to the earthly rhelm.. God had given all dominion over to Adam on earth.. When Adam sinned He gave up that dominion and gave it away to the devil.. This is why the devil is called the god of this world..

Though sin may have transpired in ADAM, that is SIN ENTERED the flesh of ADAM, that SIN is and remains OF THE DEVIL.

The devil is fully implicated in ALL SIN (1 John 3:9)

Adam was ALWAYS a son of God. (Luke 3:38) and as such sins are NOT COUNTED against ADAM.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

Those who "count sins" against mankind do it in OPEN RESISTANCE to the scriptures and they almost inevitably IGNORE the DEVIL'S role in "sins." That is in fact a working of the DEVIL in that flesh AND mind.

5. Gods plan for salvation was always for Christ to be the savior of the world. Why did Adam sin? He was created in the Image of God? Was it really satan that caused Adam to sin?

Adam was made "subject to" the deception of the Serpent and was made "subject to" that deception by God. God bound "all mankind" to disobedience (Romans 11:32.) This by no means makes mankind the SAME AS what they were made "subject to." All mankind has been made subject to the deceptions of sin indwelling the flesh which is NOT THEM, but is OF THE DEVIL.

God is all wise. Now where the enemy wanted to be God and the enemy being a created being how could this enemy be God? We do not read that the angels were created in the image of God now do we?

God can certainly have created a "resistor" or an "enemy" to Himself and not be in any way the "same as" that enemy. God can create for example "anything" and still not be A CREATED THING.

enjoy!

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[Tkjjc]

WHO MADE THE DEVIL?
​

Did GOD create the Devil? Well, we know he did not create himself! And he did not "just happen"! The reason some have held the view that Satan was originally an angel is because it seems to relieve God of the responsibility of evil and sin in the world. When they are asked if a good God created a bad Devil, they can reply: "No, He did not create the Devil; He created a beautiful and powerful angel who later became the Devil!" This sounds good on the surface, but when the Spirit of wisdom and revelation comes from God, this line of reasoning is seen to be but shallow inductions of the natural mind.
How COULD an all-wise and holy God create an evil Devil? Our reply to that is another question: If God, all-wise and all-knowing, created a being and designed within this being the inherent ability and potential to become evil - a will capable of rebelling against Him, and if in His omniscience He knew beforehand that this creature would become evil, is God then any LESS responsible for the Devil? If we say God created a good being and did not know he would become evil, then the Devil got a step ahead of God! If the Devil could do something back there which God did not know he would do, or did not plan for him to do, THEN HOW CAN WE BE SURE HE MIGHT NOT PULL A FAST ONE ON GOD AGAIN! Ah, beloved, such carnal reasoning is an affront to the majesty of the Most High God! Is it any less thinkable that God would create an evil one than just to create one with the God-given ability to become evil? In either case, there is absolutely no way to absolve GOD from the Devil!
That "all things are of God" is declared over and over again in the Bible. Did not the Lord say to Pharaoh, that wicked man of rebellion against all that was of God, "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED YOU UP, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth?" (Rom. 9:17). The infinite wisdom of God's mind cannot be ascertained by these carnal little heads of ours. We must banish our childish theology and bring our minds into harmony with the mind of Christ. We must begin to peer through the mighty telescope of God's wisdom as it looks through the vast universe of good and evil until heavenly light bursts with blazing brilliance upon our inquiring spirits and we see with crystal clear vision that God is in all things, and is responsible for all things, including all the so-called evil things as well as good things. Is it not a fearful thing to say that evil is of God? There is nothing fearful about this view unless the TRUTH be fearful! I would not be surprised if some of the compatriots of the prophet Amos may have thought he was speaking blasphemy when by the Holy Spirit he said, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be EVIL in a city, and THE LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Amos 3:6) There are untold millions ot Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L T-H-I-N-G-S A-R-E O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect," then one of the "perfect" angels "made himself" into the Devil and the Devil came in and wrecked the work of God's hands and so degraded God's beautiful and perfect creation that the Lord Almighty Himself was hard to put to the test to discover some way to restore the creation from the clutches of the Devil and after six long and tortuous milleniums of conflict and struggle, contest and effort the battle still rages on year after year and generation after generation, the Devil out-foxing God at times, and God getting the upper hand eventually. Childish prattle! Vain imaginations! Carnal-minded stupidity!
Why, oh why can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own Word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says, "surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, or wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil - famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word "ra" which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used!
For example, in Gen. 6:5 we read, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil (ra) continually." Again, "And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil (ra) in the sight of the Lord, was consumed" (Num. 32:13). In Ps. 34:13-15 we are admonished, "Keep your tongue from evil (ra), and your lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil (ra), and do good ... the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open unto their cry. The very same word in the original is also rendered "wicked" and "wickedness" more than a hundred times. So God declares, "I must form the light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things!" Why should puny man attempt to shield the Almighty from the responsibility He Himself has taken? If He says He creates peace, then believe Him. If He says He creates evil, then believe that, too. Do you remember how they brought the blind man to Jesus, and as the poor fellow stood there, the disciples said to Jesus, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus replied, "Neither has this man sinned, not his parents: BUT THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM" (Jn. 9:2-3). So through the evil of blindness the glory of God was manifested in the end!
Before continuing with this thought we need to establish one other point where the word of men and the Word of God differs. MAN says that the serpent in the Garden was one of these, long slender reptiles that have backbones and ribs and scales on the outside of their bodies. Numerous pictures have been painted of the snake dangling from the limb of a tree, conversing with Mother Eve. In the book of Revelation we have a truth given by revelation to the apostle John wherein is revealed a most important fact concerning Satan and the serpent. This truth is stated twice in the book. Two is the number of WITNESS, thus has God given a clear and unmistakable WITNESS concerning the identity of the serpent. Hear, now, the Word of the Lord! "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him ... and I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years" (Rev. 12:9; 20:1-2).
Here Satan is called "that old serpent." The word "old" is from the Greek word "archaios" which means ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL. "Primeval" means FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE. "Archaios" is from the Greek word "arche" which means A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore, "arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word "archomai" which means TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME. Putting this all together can we not see that Satan is that OLD serpent, that ANCIENT serpent, that ORIGINAL serpent, that PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE, from the BEGINNING, who existed as a serpent right FROM THE COMMENCEMENT OF TIME! Continued.....

 

[Tkjjc]

...continued

Phillip's translation reads, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key of the pit and a huge chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the SERPENT OF ANCIENT DAYS, who IS both the Devil and Satan ..." Another version states, "And he seized the dragon, the ORIGINAL SERPENT, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..." The Amplified Bible says, "And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that OLD SERPENT OF PRIMEVAL TIMES, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..." It is a common fault among us to repeat what the theologians and preachers of Babylon say instead of saying what GOD SAYS, but it is a very great blessing to us when once we comprehend the utter simplicity of the truth of God and simply believe it. Practically all sermons preached today are merely the philosophy of the preacher, and practically all the philosophy of the preacher is the tradition of men handed down from one generation to the next. These philosophies and traditions of the church become the established doctrines of the sect, and the graduates from the Seminaries become so zealous in propounding them that they never once think to seek HIS face, come to know HIS will, or be partakers of HIS glorious mind. Thus through a lifetime men go on preaching, contending and arguing their time-honored traditions until they become like the Pharisees of old, making the WORD OF GOD OF NO EFFECT through their traditions. They become thoroughly robbed of their vital association with Him, and lost to them is the grand and glorious TRUTH as it is IN JESUS.
MAN, on the one hand, says that a fallen angel, Satan, used the serpent in Eden. God, on the other hand, says that that original serpent IS THE DEVIL and Satan. I once read a book which explained how Satan was the greatest ventriloquist of all time, he threw his voice into the serpent so that the serpent only appeared to speak - it was really the Devil! GOD SAYS that THE SERPENT HIMSELF WAS MORE SUBTLE than any beast of the field, that the SERPENT SPOKE, and that the serpent IS THE DEVIL AND SATAN! MAN says that the Devil somehow got into the serpent and spoke through its mouth, whereas GOD declares that THAT ORIGINAL SERPENT I-S THE DEVIL!
Children in school learn what we call definitions. A definition is an explanatory statement which tells us just exactly what a certain thing is, as "an island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water." God also gives us definitions in His Word. He tells us exactly what certain things are. And in the Scripture just quoted He has told us exactly what the serpent is: "That original serpent, WHICH IS the Devil and Satan." Now let us make this a little plainer. Definitions of men can be given backward. For instance, the definition, "An island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water," can be given thus: "A tract of land completely surrounded by water is an island." This is but another way of stating the same fact. It does not, in any way, change the meaning. Now let us try this on the definition of the serpent. "That original serpent IS the Devil" - "Satan IS that original serpent." That, dear reader, is GOD'S OWN DEFINITION of the serpent in Eden!
As soon as this truth dawns your sinblighted heart, the knowledge of WHENCE CAME THE SERPENT will speedily follow. The Word of God is certain and unmistakable. The Holy Spirit emphatically declares, "Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Gen. 3:1). Two things are here revealed: the nature of the serpent is a BEASTLY nature - and GOD MADE HIM! Suppose that instead of trying to explain this passage in harmony with some cut-and-dried creed, we let all creeds go and wait upon the Spirit of the Lord to give understanding of what the passage really means, and then, if the creed does not harmonize with the light the Spirit brings, throw the creed away. At any rate here is the statement in the Word and we will be brave enough to receive it as TRUTH and trust the same One who made it to explain it. "The SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE." These words deserve pages of explanation, but can you not see that they are filled with the spirit of revelation? God MADE the serpent, God MADE him with a beastly nature, God MADE him subtle, God MADE him the Devil and Satan, God MADE him a liar and a murderer from the beginning!
It is completely impossible for any man to truly know and love God until his spirit has been taught that before all things, through all things, in all things, and after all things is God, omnipotent, omniscient, immutable, eternal, purposeful, and filled with righteousness, love, kindness, forgiveness and truth. He was before ALL THINGS and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. There is no angel, principality, or power anywhere in all the endless vastnesses of infinity that does not hold his authority by direct appointment of God. In Him all men and angels and creatures live and move and have their being. BY Him and FOR Him and TO Him are ALL THINGS. From Him everything comes, by Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends bringing glory to God forever and forever, Amen.
The imagination that a thing can have its beginning in God, and then become something other than what God foresaw, purposed, intended, or planned for it is a vain imagination that comes from the distorted mind and the wild imagination of man and not a truth that comes from the omniscient mind of our heavenly Father, for OF HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM, are all things; to HIM be glory forever and ever! Amen! (Rom. 11:36). Even more enlightening is the translation from Goodspeed which says, "For FROM HIM EVERYTHING COMES: THROUGH HIM EVERYTHING EXISTS; AND IN HIM EVERYTHING ENDS. GLORY TO HIM FOREVER! AMEN." Or as the Amplified Bible bluntly and beautifully words it, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen - so be it."
The words of this precious portion of Scripture cast a ray of divine illumination across the gloomy pages of human tradition that for centuries has confused men's minds and attributed to Satan the power to be and to do apart from, and in rebellion against God, causing men's faith in the omniscience, immutability, and omnipotence of the Lord to falter and die. There came a blessed day in my life when my Father in heaven let me hear a secret from His own heart, a secret that few have understood throughout all generations of the Church. When He breathed into my listening ear it well nigh stunned me because of my own tradition and unbelief, yet I could not doubt the truth He taught me when He said, "For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist" (Col. 1:16-17). "ALL THINGS were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made" (Jn.1:3). I was as one shocked by a lightning bolt out of the sky by these words because for years all my teachers had instilled the very opposite into my mind. "God," they told me, "made a beautiful, glorious angel, but the Devil made himself!" But when I heard the voice of the all-wise Lord, speaking from the throne of His all-powerful majesty, taking upon HIMSELF all the responsibility for THE ENTIRE CREATION, my heart was amazed in His presence and for the first time in my life the "purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will," began to unfold in my deepest heart.
God is THE CAUSE of all that is. It all exists with the one purpose of showing forth His glory. Every object in nature and every creature in the universe has its only reason of existence in this - that the wondrous goodness and wisdom and power of God may shine out through it. God is the end and aim of all things, because He is their beginning and origin. All must fulfill His will because all came from Him and exist only through Him.

 

[squint]

I can tell you've been listening.

Thanks. You are an encouragement.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I hold the view, God created evil like a bowel movement.

Not with His hands.

God is wise.

"He knows the end from the beginning." He is the "Alpha and the Omega."

Desiring and being pregnant from before the foundation of the earth with the thought of the angelic and Adamic races, and wanting company, God forsaw each of us. And possibly other creatures He didn't create.

He forsaw that freewilling creatures would eventually want sin and want more sin.

So He as master of wisdom, freewill and time and all knowledge, chose one pattern of events from the many that were possible, that caused the least harm and was best finally overcome.

Jesus defeated death for us. In Rev the world to come has no more death.

We are rewarded for enduring suffering. And should look to Jesus for victory, inspiration, guidance, love, counsel, longsuffering strength, reward, justice for our enemies,... trust Him and let go of evil.

Satan will be a "footstool at His feet." He still loves Satan.

 

[IamAdopted]

And that is patent baloney from the "freewill" camp. A PERFECT DEVIL remains a DEVIL in any case. If the devil was created PERFECT in "all his ways" (Ezekiel 28:15) those perfect ways are STILL the perfect ways of the DEVIL.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is zero scriptural presentation that the devil was anything but a liar and a murderer from the beginning according to Jesus.



Though sin may have transpired in ADAM, that is SIN ENTERED the flesh of ADAM, that SIN is and remains OF THE DEVIL.

The devil is fully implicated in ALL SIN (1 John 3:9)

Adam was ALWAYS a son of God. (Luke 3:38) and as such sins are NOT COUNTED against ADAM.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

Those who "count sins" against mankind do it in OPEN RESISTANCE to the scriptures and they almost inevitably IGNORE the DEVIL'S role in "sins." That is in fact a working of the DEVIL in that flesh AND mind.


Adam was made "subject to" the deception of the Serpent and was made "subject to" that deception by God. God bound "all mankind" to disobedience (Romans 11:32.) This by no means makes mankind the SAME AS what they were made "subject to." All mankind has been made subject to the deceptions of sin indwelling the flesh which is NOT THEM, but is OF THE DEVIL.



God can certainly have created a "resistor" or an "enemy" to Himself and not be in any way the "same as" that enemy. God can create for example "anything" and still not be A CREATED THING.

enjoy!

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LOL okay so you are saying that when God created lucifer that he was not an angel?

 

[squint]

LOL okay so you are saying that when God created lucifer that he was not an angel?

The term angel means "messenger." The term is applied in scriptures to HOLY messengers of spirit being, MEN, and also EVIL or WICKED "messengers" of the anti-Christ ilk, the devil and his "messengers."

The application of that term to the devil and his messengers does not equate to them as EVER being "holy" and that is never presented anywhere in the text.

Freewillers have made this basic error to justify a portion of their presentation that these "angels" were once holy and went foul by making "bad decisions." That presentation is a made up fairytale.

Jesus told us clearly what the devil was from the beginning and He didn't lie. Anti-Christ spirits were made that way by God and they are not changing.

Scripturally speaking, these agents, these anti-Christ spirits have open access to the flesh and minds of all mankind EXCEPT for Jesus. Satan had nothing in Him.

Paul admitted to the presence of "sin indwelling" which he termed "NO LONGER I" twice in Romans 7, also stating therein that EVIL was present with him. Paul also stated that because of the exceeding revelations given him, that he had a "special messenger" or "angel" of Satan placed upon him to "humble" him.

The Apostle John stated that none of us can say "we have no sin" and be "in Truth." John goes on to say that "he who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL." John also says in 1 John 3:6 that "whoever sins" does not know God NOR have they EVER.

The devil's role in EVIL is clearly shown in the NT by Jesus where Satan spoke from the mouth of Peter. Satan "entered" Judas. Jesus cast out a veritable multitude of DEVILS from MANKIND clearly showing their existence is IN the flesh of mankind.

To not render the role of SATAN and his messengers in understanding sin, evil and judgment is a grave error, and one that will result in FALSELY "counting sins" against our fellow man when there are much more likely culprits that are involved in these matters besides just MANKIND.

enjoy!

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[squint]

I hold the view, God created evil like a bowel movement.

Not with His hands.

What baloney is that? A "bowel movement of God?"

God can make "anything" and not in any way BE that "thing," whatever it is.

God is wise.

"He knows the end from the beginning." He is the "Alpha and the Omega."

Desiring and being pregnant from before the foundation of the earth with the thought of the angelic and Adamic races, and wanting company, God forsaw each of us. And possibly other creatures He didn't create.

Where in the world did you get the idea that there are "creatures" that God did not create? God created "all things." Other "things" didn't just pop up on their own.

He forsaw that freewilling creatures would eventually want sin and want more sin.

Freewill is patent nonsense. Go here for a mini-dissection on why freewill is scripturally and logically untenable:

http://foru.ms/t5797184

So He as master of wisdom, freewill and time and all knowledge, chose one pattern of events from the many that were possible, that caused the least harm and was best finally overcome.

Naw. What you are really saying is that God was never good enough to create perfect beings and that "Freewill choice" is greater than God.

Satan will be a "footstool at His feet." He still loves Satan.

God does not love Satan. Again a fairytale. Anti-Christ spirits were made that way by God and will be permanently set aside when God is finished using them.

enjoy!

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[IamAdopted]

Now where on earth have I said that Angles were Holy? Tee hee. For all created beings are just that.. Created..

 

[squint]

Now where on earth have I said that Angles were Holy? Tee hee. For all created beings are just that.. Created..

bravo

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Sorry, my post was quickly written, you misunderstood me.

God "caused no evil by turning." But is still it's master and determined it's form. By knowing all things to come, plus with wise and powerful interjections, and a design of things like Michael and immunity... and He chose all things to come, and could have chosen another set of angels and events. I think there are angels He thought of, that He did not create. All angels are His creation. He is master over evil and not it's instigator.

For example, God knows the appearance and manner of the children your parents could have had, if they had not stopped after having your oldest sibling.

And In another set of events God did not choose to create, there could have been other angels, and more shrewd and evil ones than Lucifer who fell. And in another frame of events, three quarters of the lot of angels may have fallen instead.

He is such a master that evil is His tool. He created the destoryer. The smith as from Isaiah.

God wanted and created free will, so that He could have servants and friends, and dear fellowship. Lucifer and Michael have free will.

I have a free will. I cannot earn grace.

God is love. Satan wants to kill God, and have the highest position, he wants to make God a liar... He cannot change God, or kill God. God is love and will not but love His creatures, but not always their ways.

Satan cannot stop God's love. Paul said "I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels principalities or powers, nor things that are now, nor things that are to come, can separate us from the love of God." With the other race, Jesus shows mercy not hate to the spirits and casts them into a herd of pigs in the Gospel.

God can utterly destroy Satan, He has the power.

He does neither force them to repent nor worship Him, which would be like rape, a bullying husband. And does use His might to annihilate them.

I know and didn't suggest God is creation...

God is master over evil and the Devil and the falls, but didn't want them or create them for His pleasure but saw them as unstoppable and chose the lesser destructive and effective evil options of possible events.

Looking at inumerable angels and souls, living in community, with free wills, for like ninety thousand trillion years, a fall was inevitable, only God is truly faultless.

We do what we want, if He calls, we can do His will. Be taken hold of, and take hold... Or be like Jezebel...

It could have been worse. Such as if Adam ate from the tree of life after the fall. The whole Adamic race could have been lost, without ones like Noah, Moses And of course Jesus.

Israel almost lost a tribe, Benjamin.

Jesus didn't count the race of fallen angels worthy of a sacrifice, but ours only.

Adam the thief and not Lucifer the murderer. A thief and a murderer besides Jesus at the crucifixion.

Satan thought He was going to kill God.

I emphasize that the Trinity can easily annihilate Satan and the full cohort at any time. Satan is not indestructable.

Free will is dependant or independant from God according to the free willing creature. We really choose.

We cannot devise our own calling and can refuse God's, like Israel refused Peter, John and Paul.... Free will, not forced, kindness gives repentance. God wishes all be saved.

NIV Phil 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

"It is patience and kindness that lead to repentance", not God's force. Free will.

Nothing can change God's love for any. God is love and never changes.

"Jesus the same yesterday today and forever." Hebrews.

"I am God, I change not."

41Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
43until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." 44David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

Quote from NIV in Bible Gateway.

 

[childofgod57]

...continued

Phillip's translation reads, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key of the pit and a huge chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the SERPENT OF ANCIENT DAYS, who IS both the Devil and Satan ..." Another version states, "And he seized the dragon, the ORIGINAL SERPENT, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..." The Amplified Bible says, "And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that OLD SERPENT OF PRIMEVAL TIMES, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..." It is a common fault among us to repeat what the theologians and preachers of Babylon say instead of saying what GOD SAYS, but it is a very great blessing to us when once we comprehend the utter simplicity of the truth of God and simply believe it. Practically all sermons preached today are merely the philosophy of the preacher, and practically all the philosophy of the preacher is the tradition of men handed down from one generation to the next. These philosophies and traditions of the church become the established doctrines of the sect, and the graduates from the Seminaries become so zealous in propounding them that they never once think to seek HIS face, come to know HIS will, or be partakers of HIS glorious mind. Thus through a lifetime men go on preaching, contending and arguing their time-honored traditions until they become like the Pharisees of old, making the WORD OF GOD OF NO EFFECT through their traditions. They become thoroughly robbed of their vital association with Him, and lost to them is the grand and glorious TRUTH as it is IN JESUS.
MAN, on the one hand, says that a fallen angel, Satan, used the serpent in Eden. God, on the other hand, says that that original serpent IS THE DEVIL and Satan. I once read a book which explained how Satan was the greatest ventriloquist of all time, he threw his voice into the serpent so that the serpent only appeared to speak - it was really the Devil! GOD SAYS that THE SERPENT HIMSELF WAS MORE SUBTLE than any beast of the field, that the SERPENT SPOKE, and that the serpent IS THE DEVIL AND SATAN! MAN says that the Devil somehow got into the serpent and spoke through its mouth, whereas GOD declares that THAT ORIGINAL SERPENT I-S THE DEVIL!
Children in school learn what we call definitions. A definition is an explanatory statement which tells us just exactly what a certain thing is, as "an island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water." God also gives us definitions in His Word. He tells us exactly what certain things are. And in the Scripture just quoted He has told us exactly what the serpent is: "That original serpent, WHICH IS the Devil and Satan." Now let us make this a little plainer. Definitions of men can be given backward. For instance, the definition, "An island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water," can be given thus: "A tract of land completely surrounded by water is an island." This is but another way of stating the same fact. It does not, in any way, change the meaning. Now let us try this on the definition of the serpent. "That original serpent IS the Devil" - "Satan IS that original serpent." That, dear reader, is GOD'S OWN DEFINITION of the serpent in Eden!
As soon as this truth dawns your sinblighted heart, the knowledge of WHENCE CAME THE SERPENT will speedily follow. The Word of God is certain and unmistakable. The Holy Spirit emphatically declares, "Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Gen. 3:1). Two things are here revealed: the nature of the serpent is a BEASTLY nature - and GOD MADE HIM! Suppose that instead of trying to explain this passage in harmony with some cut-and-dried creed, we let all creeds go and wait upon the Spirit of the Lord to give understanding of what the passage really means, and then, if the creed does not harmonize with the light the Spirit brings, throw the creed away. At any rate here is the statement in the Word and we will be brave enough to receive it as TRUTH and trust the same One who made it to explain it. "The SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE." These words deserve pages of explanation, but can you not see that they are filled with the spirit of revelation? God MADE the serpent, God MADE him with a beastly nature, God MADE him subtle, God MADE him the Devil and Satan, God MADE him a liar and a murderer from the beginning!
It is completely impossible for any man to truly know and love God until his spirit has been taught that before all things, through all things, in all things, and after all things is God, omnipotent, omniscient, immutable, eternal, purposeful, and filled with righteousness, love, kindness, forgiveness and truth. He was before ALL THINGS and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. There is no angel, principality, or power anywhere in all the endless vastnesses of infinity that does not hold his authority by direct appointment of God. In Him all men and angels and creatures live and move and have their being. BY Him and FOR Him and TO Him are ALL THINGS. From Him everything comes, by Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends bringing glory to God forever and forever, Amen.
The imagination that a thing can have its beginning in God, and then become something other than what God foresaw, purposed, intended, or planned for it is a vain imagination that comes from the distorted mind and the wild imagination of man and not a truth that comes from the omniscient mind of our heavenly Father, for OF HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM, are all things; to HIM be glory forever and ever! Amen! (Rom. 11:36). Even more enlightening is the translation from Goodspeed which says, "For FROM HIM EVERYTHING COMES: THROUGH HIM EVERYTHING EXISTS; AND IN HIM EVERYTHING ENDS. GLORY TO HIM FOREVER! AMEN." Or as the Amplified Bible bluntly and beautifully words it, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen - so be it."
The words of this precious portion of Scripture cast a ray of divine illumination across the gloomy pages of human tradition that for centuries has confused men's minds and attributed to Satan the power to be and to do apart from, and in rebellion against God, causing men's faith in the omniscience, immutability, and omnipotence of the Lord to falter and die. There came a blessed day in my life when my Father in heaven let me hear a secret from His own heart, a secret that few have understood throughout all generations of the Church. When He breathed into my listening ear it well nigh stunned me because of my own tradition and unbelief, yet I could not doubt the truth He taught me when He said, "For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist" (Col. 1:16-17). "ALL THINGS were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made" (Jn.1:3). I was as one shocked by a lightning bolt out of the sky by these words because for years all my teachers had instilled the very opposite into my mind. "God," they told me, "made a beautiful, glorious angel, but the Devil made himself!" But when I heard the voice of the all-wise Lord, speaking from the throne of His all-powerful majesty, taking upon HIMSELF all the responsibility for THE ENTIRE CREATION, my heart was amazed in His presence and for the first time in my life the "purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will," began to unfold in my deepest heart.
God is THE CAUSE of all that is. It all exists with the one purpose of showing forth His glory. Every object in nature and every creature in the universe has its only reason of existence in this - that the wondrous goodness and wisdom and power of God may shine out through it. God is the end and aim of all things, because He is their beginning and origin. All must fulfill His will because all came from Him and exist only through Him.

all that writing when "god made satan the angel,satan made himself evil" would have sufficed........