• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why did God create Lucifer or allow evil? For a non believer who doesn't find God's foresight enough to convince him?

Joseph G

Saved and sustained by the grace of Jesus Christ
Dec 22, 2023
1,765
1,500
64
Austin
✟99,413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The New Jerusalem comes after all that, right?
Yessir. And your question got me searching for support and I found a very fascinating vid that goes into intricate detail about the unfolding of the two ultimate destinations. So much so that I started a new thread on it because I predict discussions may go into all kinds of directions, ha!

[teaser 1: Ever wondered about the significance of SALT in the Holy Scriptures?]

[teaser 2: In reference to the discussion here, this gentleman teaches that the New Jerusalem exists in Heaven and that both descend to the New Earth]. Hmm... Perhaps Belinda Carlisle of the Go-Go's was right after all without knowing it - "Heaven is a place on Earth".

Titled "Eternity in the Lake of Fire versus in the New Jerusalem":


God bless!
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well said!

1) Satan is already defeated. Jesus won by sacrificing His own good and perfect will - unto death - in obedience to the Father's will. Jesus did what we cannot do, in His time here and in His death - fully conquer Self. Our own will is where the devil tempts us. Jesus DENIED the devil his dearest desire - to corrupt the One He is insanely jealous of - the rightful Heir to God's throne.
Yes, it is amazing that His death at Calvary was actually a great victory. Who would have known? Even the enemies of God didn't realize that Calvary was the greatest victory. God exercised a great wisdom -

Which none of the rulers of this age have known; for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; (1 Cor. 2:8)

And on the cross Christ totally stripped off the oppressing evil spirits away from Himself.

Stripping off the rulers and the authorities, He made a display of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Col. 2;15)

How we need to remind that little snake of his miserable defeat and more miserable eternal destiny,

3) However, much to his chagrin, Satan is likewise defeated with every soul added to God's Kingdom who receives Jesus as their Savior and Lord. And in the process of sanctification thereafter, where we learn to ever-increasing degree to die to Self so that Jesus can live and love through us - the devil loses access to strongholds of vulnerability we carry around with us - the realm of our own will.
Well said.
The devil cannot pass through the cross. But we can pass through the cross as Satan is stripped away with the
denied self. This filter of the cross is in the Spirit. And we should not be ignorant that in the Spirit is the killing and terminating power of Christ's cross. We pass through to enjoy Christ but Satan hiding in the self is clean filtered out.

Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life. (Rom. 6:3,4)


In the Spirit is the true circumcism. In the Spirit is the terminating power to cut off the Satanified man of the fallen flesh.

For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:3)

In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ, (Col. 2:11)


Both the terminating power and the germinating power are in the Spirit - the bountiful supply of the Spirit of
Jesus Christ.


So the oneness is needed to be the adaquate vessel to contain such a blessing. We cannot make it individually.
But as the built up habitation of God in spirit Satan is crushed under the feet of the Body of Christ.
Christ took the lead to be the head over all things to the church. That is transmitting His great overcoming power
down from Himself into the Body.

Which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies,

Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come;

And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church,

Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:20-23)

Despite his boasting, Satan is in a constant state of defeat!
Amen. And with praises to Christ we should remind Satan.
John has already seen him in the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

GoldenKingGaze

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.
Mar 12, 2007
4,512
550
Visit site
✟301,525.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
Satan's head is crushed and he will be locked in the lake of fire permanently, still the body writhes for a time. The dogs are outside the New Jerusalem but for how long? When will death be no more? And the book of Romans mentions the other sons of God who wait for us for salvation. I think Chapter 8. All creation groans. For those who need to know the end of evil for a theodicy to work.
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Satan's head is crushed and he will be locked in the lake of fire permanently,
Yes. And throughout eternity there will never be another like him because the issue has been settled. There is no one like the Most High.
But more than this. The Triune God has secured forever something better than a most wise created angel. He has dispensed His life and nature into a counterpart, a wife, a partner, a romantic companion (for lack of a better phrase). He has a Bride and Wife - the New Jerusalem whose bond of love is eternal and indestructible.

And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:2).

God the Creator has the appearance of a jasper stone in ch. 4.
. . . upon the throne there was One sitting; And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone (See Rev. 4:2,3)

And in the end the entire city New Jerusalem has the appearance also of a transparent jasper stone.
. . . the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal. (See Rev. 21:10,11)


This means the communicable splendour of God is the exact same as the radiant expression of the city. (The city is people depicted as a sign). The redeemed, transformed, transfigured and glorified human beings are like transparent jasper through which the glory of God is seen. The city is described as Having the glory of God.

I believe the jasper there is the deep dark green sort - signifying the richness of life.

What Lucifer strove for evilly to usurp and rob God for himself, God's eternal salvation has wrought into the saved that expression forever.
What a shame to the Devil who goes to the lake of fire. What a glory to our Savior God.
The dogs are outside the New Jerusalem but for how long?
According to Matthew 25 what was "prepared for the Devil and his angels" is the eternal fire.

Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:41)


According to verse 46 this eternal fire is called eternal punishment.
And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (v.46)

It appears bad angels, demons, unsaved sinners go with their leader to co-partake of his miserable destiny.
Those sons of God in the New Jerusalem go with Christ the Firstborn Son to co-enjoy His great destiny.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me.

But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:7,8)


When will death be no more?
When death and Hades also go into that universal trash can. There in that eternal trash can all the negative things will be swept into it.

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:14,15)


We know that death is the last enemy.

For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. (1 Cor. 15:25,26)


We know that death is swallowed up in victory.

And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.” (1 Cor. 15:45)

And from within and from without the ZOE life God swallows up mortality.

Divine and eternal life springing up from within -
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

Divine and eternal life swallowing us up also from without - . . . in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (See 2 Cor. 5:4)

And the book of Romans mentions the other sons of God who wait for us for salvation. I think Chapter 8. All creation groans. For those who need to know the end of evil for a theodicy to work.
Romans 8 shows all things without exception God engineers by His great sovereignty to work for the good of His purpose.
That is He causes the entire history of the universe to work out His eternal purpose according to His infinite transcendent providence on behalf of all those who love Him.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)


The final New Jerusalem is a sign showing all these brothers of Christ the Firstborn and Elder Brother built up together as
a dwelling place of God in man - God's rest and man place to contact God forever.

Remember that Christ would not abide alone. He died and rose that He could duplicate Himself as a grain falling into the
ground to reproduce itself.

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:23,24)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Doesn't the New Jerusalem come down only after Satan and his company are permanently locked down in the fire?

Yet outside are the dogs.
This is a good question. The complete and fully consummated New Jerusalem does come in Revelation 21 and 22 after
Satan has been sent to the lake of fire forever in Revelation 20.

But New Jerusalem in smaller form is awarded as a prize in the millennial age to those who overcame in the church age.
Said another way, a pre-cursor, a foretaste, a minature of the New Jerusalem exists to a remnant during the 1,000 year kingdom.

The evidence of this is seen with the promise to the church in Philadelphia in Revelation 3:8-12.
Here I will just quote vs. 12.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (v.10-12)


To those who overcame from the church age Christ will make them each DURING the millennium:
1. a pillar in the temple of God - The temple of God here is a living temple not a physical building. And to be a pillar is to be a major
supporting entity - a transformed and glorified human/divine support column of New Jerusalem.

2.) and he shall by bo mean go out anymore - As a reward these overcomers will never again wander away from God's central goal.
To not go out anymore means before the age of the new heaven and new earth they are already solidly built into the living "organic" final temple of God irremovable pillars in the city.

3.) I will write upon him the name of My God - The writing of God's name upon them means full ownership and full identification.
To look upon such oned during the millennium even, God is seen in them and full ownership by God is manifest in them.

4.)
I will write upon him . . . the name of the city of My God - As a prize during the millennium not only full ownership with God is seen
upon them but full indentification with the name New Jerusalem. This writing upon them means God's life and nature wrought into
them permeating them with Christ's God and God's final city New Jerusalem. These blessings which will be common to ALL the redeemed in chapter 21 and 22 are awarded in preview to a remnant during the millennium.

5.)
the city of My God which descends out of heaven from My God - There is no question that this being a living pillar and permantly built in support with these names concerns the city New Jerusalem which is said in Revelation 21:2 to come down out of heaven from God. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (21:2)

While Satan is in the bottomless pit during the thousand years and before he goes to the lake of fire forever afterwards, some overcomers are already in the enjoyment of the city / bride / temple which has its source from God in heaven which is coming down to earth - New Jerusalem

6.) I will write upon him . . . My new name - Here Christ the individual God-man has a new name which is written upon these early
enjoyers of the New Jerusalem during even the millennium. Again ownership, identification, and the permeation of Christ throughout
their whole being constitutes Christ expressed in a new way, corporately through them in the millennium.


Notice that during the millennium the creation undergoes a partial recovery.
But after the millennium there is a total renovaion a new heaven and a new earth.

While some of God's children are not fully dispensed into by God's life and nature there must be a time of partial recovery.
But at the end of the millennium no child of God is left immature. As a result a complete new heaven and new earth is ushered in.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21;1,2)


In the age of the new heaven and new earth AFTER Satan goes to the lake of fire ONLY nothing but righteousness dwells.

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 2:12,13)


I cannot always control what appears after my video below (ie. ad, etc.)

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GoldenKingGaze

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.
Mar 12, 2007
4,512
550
Visit site
✟301,525.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
Being a pillar on God's place, is symbolic, as of Isaiah 56 and the better name and place of eunuchs who serve God. Regarding God's presence and in Heaven. A permanent place with God. Not necessarily on Earth. And outside the twelve gates New Jerusalem, will be the dogs, and others of poor nature.
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Being a pillar on God's place, is symbolic, as of Isaiah 56 and the better name and place of eunuchs who serve God. tha
Sure. We are told in Rev. 1:1 that the revelation was made known to John by signs.
We are taught that Christ marries His church. And that is people not a physical bulding or buildings.
So He would not change His mind and instead marry a golden mountain 1,500 miles high and wide.
So the bride the wife of the Lamb New Jerusalem must also be people.

There is no noblier destiny for humans to be made a constituent of New Jerusalem. There is no wonder that God
promised the depressed eunuchs that they would receive a better name. What could surpass being so mingled with the Triune
God as to become the incorporation of God in humanity?

This sign of the Bride / Wife city with living pillars is the final answer to the prayer of Christ in John 17. Particularly New Jerusalem
fulfills this petition the Son made of the Father.

That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me.


Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:21-24)

What a mighty eternal request the Son offers. You know the Father cannot fail to fulfill this perfecting petition.
Regarding God's presence and in Heaven. A permanent place with God. Not necessarily on Earth.
Let me ask you. Which do you think will bring more glory to God and more shame to His enemy?

1.) That His glorified sons be confined to Heaven.
2.) That His glorified sons be also standing upon the earth.
 
Upvote 0

GoldenKingGaze

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.
Mar 12, 2007
4,512
550
Visit site
✟301,525.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
Sure. We are told in Rev. 1:1 that the revelation was made known to John by signs.
We are taught that Christ marries His church. And that is people not a physical bulding or buildings.
So He would not change His mind and instead marry a golden mountain 1,500 miles high and wide.
So the bride the wife of the Lamb New Jerusalem must also be people.

There is no noblier destiny for humans to be made a constituent of New Jerusalem. There is no wonder that God
promised the depressed eunuchs that they would receive a better name. What could surpass being so mingled with the Triune
God as to become the incorporation of God in humanity?

This sign of the Bride / Wife city with living pillars is the final answer to the prayer of Christ in John 17. Particularly New Jerusalem
fulfills this petition the Son made of the Father.

That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me.


Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:21-24)

What a mighty eternal request the Son offers. You know the Father cannot fail to fulfill this perfecting petition.

Let me ask you. Which do you think will bring more glory to God and more shame to His enemy?

1.) That His glorified sons be confined to Heaven.
2.) That His glorified sons be also standing upon the earth.
The Godly eunuchs have a better name and place. Pillars implies stands forever part of or sharing the glory.
They would have a place in the New Jerusalem, I agree.

Even the New Jerusalem is not Heaven. Christ within but still four dimensions. A small paradise. Heaven is vast and supreme. The better place, where God has His thrones and in both places there is a central presence, and there must be other paradises with thrones, with God permanently there. I think we may be able, to move between those places. Unless we can bear children in the flesh in the New Jerusalem, I'd prefer to be in Heaven.
 
Upvote 0