Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

Which of these issuse do you want to talk about?

Canwright's Testimony in his own words.
1. As I now began to see more of Elder White and wife, and the work at headquarters, I learned that there was much trouble with him. I saw that he ruled everything, and that all greatly feared him. I saw that he was often cross and unreasonable.
Q: did Elder White and his wife rule every thing at the SDA headquaters? Did all greatly fear them. Was JW oftern cross.?

2. At this time there was great trouble with Elder White, and many church meetings were held to investigate the matter. It was clear that he was wrong, but Mrs. White in her Testimonies sustained him and blamed the church. Andrews and a few proposed to stand up for the right and take the consequences. My sympathies were with them; but others feared, and finally all wilted and confessed that they had been blinded by Satan. This was signed by the ministers, and adopted by the church. (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 612.)

Q: was there great trouble with Elder White? were there meeting held to investigate the matter? what was at issue and Was JW wrong? Did EGW make a testmony to sustain him? Did J.n. andrews try to stand up to them. Did they wilt and confess? was there as resolution ?

3. This shook my faith a good deal, and I began to question Mrs. White's inspiration. I saw that her revelations always favored Elder White and herself. Any who questioned their course soon received a revelation denouncing him with the wrath of God.

Q: DId EGW's testimony always favor JW? Did people who question the course of action recieve an revelation denouncing them with the Wrath of God?



4. But in May, 1869, I was in Battle Creek for a month. Things were in bad shape. Elder White was in trouble with most the leading men, and they with him. He was the real cause of it, but Mrs. White sustained him and that settled it.
Q: Was elder White in trouble with the leading men? and they with him? Was he the cause? Did EGW sustain him if he was wrong?

5. So far, I had had no trouble with any one, and Elder White had been cordial to me. But I saw that if I ever came to be of any prominence in the work I should have to expect the same treatment from him that all the others got.
Q: Was DM canwright in any trouble before this?


6. To give up the SDA faith, I thought, was to give up the Bible.
Q: Is giving up the SDA faith, the same as giving up the Bible?

7. I finally opened my mind to Elder Butler, and told him my fears. I knew these things troubled him as well as myself, for we often spoke of them. He helped me some, and again I gathered courage and went on, feeling better.
Q: Did he open him mind to Elder butler? Did the same things trouble Elder Butler?

8. Wherever Elder White and wife went they were always in trouble with the brethren, and the best ones, too. I came to dread having them come where I was, for I knew there would be trouble with someone or something and it never failed of so being. I saw church after church split up by them, the best brethren discouraged and maddened and driven off, while I was compelled to apologise for them continually. For years about this time, the main business at our big meetings was to listen to the complaints of Elder White against his brethren. Not a leading man escaped: Andrews, Waggoner, Smith, Loughborough, Amadon, Cornell, Aldrich, and a host of others had to take their turn at being broken on the wheel. For hours at a time, and times without number, I sat in meetings and heard Elder White and wife denounce these men, till I felt there was little manhood left in them. It violated my ideas of right and justice, and stirred my indignation. Yet whatever vote was asked by Elder White, we voted it unanimously, I with the rest. Then I would go out alone and hate myself for my cowardice, and despise my brethren for their weakness.
Q: was elder White in trouble with the best adventist leaders? Did people have to apologize for them? were chruches split up by the whites? Did the above leaders take there turn at being "broken on the wheel"? did JW and EGW denounce them till there was little manhood left.

9. Elder and Mrs. White ran and ruled everything. Not a nomination to office, not a resolution, not an item of business was ever acted upon till all had been submitted to Elder White for his approval. Till years later, we never saw an opposition vote on any question, for no one dared. The will of Elder White settled everything. If any one dared to oppose anything, however humbly, Elder White or wife quickly squelched him.
These, with other things, threw me into doubt and tempted me to quit the work. I saw able ministers and valuable men leave us because they would not stand such treatment. I envied the faith and confidence of brethren who went on ignorant of all this, supposing that Battle Creek was a little heaven on earth, when in fact it was as near purgatory as anything I could imagine.

Q: did The whites rule everything? Did they squelch opposition?

10. I soon found things unpleasant living in the family. Now my turn had come to catch it, but instead of knuckling under, as most the others had, I told the Elder my mind freely. That brought us into an open rupture. Mrs. White heard it all, but said nothing. In a few days she had a long written testimony for my wife and me. It justified her husband in everything, and placed us as rebels against God, with no hope of heaven except by a full surrender to them. My wife and I read it many times with tears and prayers; but could see no way to reconcile it with truth......

FACT: This actually happened and was recorded in a testiomony.

11 .... It contained many statements we knew were false. We saw that it was dictated by a spirit of retaliation, a determination to break our wills. For awhile we were in great perplexity, but still my confidence in much of the doctrine and my fear of going wrong held me;

Q: did this testimony contain false statment. If so which ones?
12. I finally decided to forget my objections, and go along as before. So we confessed to Elder White all we could, and he generously forgave us! But from that time on my faith in the inspiration of Mrs. White was weak. Elder White was very friendly to me again after that.

13. Now the Adventists say that I left them five times, and this is one of the five. This is untrue. I simply stopped preaching for a few weeks, but did not withdraw from the church or renounce the faith. If this is leaving them, then most their leading men have left them, for they all have had their periods of trial when they left the work awhile. About 1856, J. N. Andrews and J. N. Loughborough left the work and went into business at Waukon, Iowa. Elder Butler, for many years the General Conference President, got into trial with his brethren, and practically out of the work. He was a humble good man, with a strong sense of fairness. Elder White became jealous of him. Later Mrs. White turned against him and required a servile submission which he would not make. Said when he could not be an Adventist and a man, he would be a man. He went to Florida to work a small farm. Uriah Smith also had his seasons of doubts, when he engaged in secular employments.

Q: does leaving the work constitute leaving the church or the faith?

6. To give up the SDA faith, I thought, was to give up the Bible.
Q: Is giving up the SDA faith, the same as giving up the Bible?

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Yes!

Icedragon - regardless of what you are saying - I have to side with you here. Nobody seems to be addressing the issues raised directly, and any outsider looking in on this topic would be lead to believe that Adventists will cover their eyes and ears when anything comes up to threaten the reputation of Sister White.

I would like to ask those who are informed on this topic to please try and answer the direct (and many) issues raised by Icedragon.

Even though I feel much of your evidence is shaky, I agree that they should not be brushed off without being dealt with.

Jon

Jon0388g said:

Icedragon - regardless of what you are saying - I have to side with you here. Nobody seems to be addressing the issues raised directly, and any outsider looking in on this topic would be lead to believe that Adventists will cover their eyes and ears when anything comes up to threaten the reputation of Sister White.

I would like to ask those who are informed on this topic to please try and answer the direct (and many) issues raised by Icedragon.

Even though I feel much of your evidence is shaky, I agree that they should not be brushed off without being dealt with.

Jon

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thank-you,

I never said that I beleved these issues. I said we need to talk about them and give them a proper answer. Nice to see you DL was wondering where you went. Book like the "case for Christ", "the case for Faith", "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" all addrsse issue that critics raise. Good stuff by the way. just the issues and answers .

so again which issue do you want to talk about?

djconklin said:

Yes!

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Q: is giving up the SDA faith, the same as giving up the Bible?

djconklin said: "yes"

I have a question for you then djconklin.

The sda belief is that the earth was created in 6 literal days and 1 day for rest. if you believe that giving up the SDA belief is giving up the bible then, Why does your profile say you are and "old earth creationist"? It seems that your own statment has hanged you?

Here is a good test that is applicable to what I am trying to say

"Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1Thessalonians 5:19-21.

icedragon101 said:

Q: is giving up the SDA faith, the same as giving up the Bible?

djconklin said: "yes"

I have a question for you then djconklin.

The sda belief is that the earth was created in 6 literal days and 1 day for rest. if you believe that giving up the SDA belief is giving up the bible then, Why does your profile say you are and "old earth creationist"? It seems that your own statment has hanged you?

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on what did you base that?

Djconlkin: It has been roumred that you were on somekind of project that looked into the plagerism accusations of EGW? is that true? if so could you tell us your role in the matter.

To those: who have been posting, DL, Reddog, Rc_protastant, or any other could you tell us the following
1. how long have you been a christian?
2. How long have you been associated with the SDA chruch? born and raised, converted from other demoniation, converted from no religion, other
3. What is your personal view of EGW?
4. What is your view of the critics, please feel free to state specifice critics and your views of them?
5. How much time have you spent investigating the claims that EGW was a prophet. please site reasons why you beleve EGW is a prophet? be specific.
6. please state how much time you have spent looking into the issues raised by the critic and your understanding of them. List specific issues. plagerism, shut door theroy, health problems, Iseral Damon trial, James white editing issues, DM canwright issus or others.
7. Please state how willing you are to explore these issues? from 1-10. 1 being not will to 10 being very willing.

icedragon101 said:

To those: who have been posting, DL, Reddog, Rc_protastant, or any other could you tell us the following
1. how long have you been a christian? since 1987
2. How long have you been associated with the SDA chruch? born and raised,
3. What is your personal view of EGW? until 6 months ago 100% inspired no questions asked. now only about 75 to 80% certian. Have questins to ask and discuss.
4. What is your view of the critics, please feel free to state specifice critics and your views of them? I used to think they were all fanatics, why wouldn't they beleve it's so obvious, isn't it? They are just out to destroy us.
My view after reading some of the materal is that there are serious questions and objections raised by them that need to be dealt with, they are not "hairs", it is like cutting off a limb. What disturbs me most is the response of the SDA's, attack the caracter of the one questioning or avoid the topic all together. Instead of following the biblical injunction to "be prepared to given and answer in season and out of season" She can stand the test can't she?
5. How much time have you spent investigating the claims that EGW was a prophet. I have always be reaised with EGW as a prophet. she has always been there. Like another member of the family she has always yeilded influence. I have read her work extensively and have quoted them often. I have taken college level classes on this subject and have read many books on SDA history. In cluding A.T.jones book by George Knight, 2 new books of the SDA press about W.W. prescott and JH kelloge. Canwright sectary, Egw and her critics, by Nichol, light beares to the remenant and more then what now. Please site reasons why you beleve EGW is a prophet? some of the prediction are coming true. the catholics and the protastatnts joing hands. statment about preflood condiditons. be specific.

6. please state how much time you have spent looking into the issues raised by the critic and your understanding of them. I have spent about 100 hours looking at the critics List specific issues. I have looked and the "shut door theroy, Isereal Damon trial, DM canwrith heresy issues. James white editing problems. "the Daily", I am aware of the plagerism issues, health problems, and other but don't feel quallifed to even render a critique.
7. Please state how willing you are to explore these issues? from 1-10. 1 being not will to 10 being very willing. 8-9 I am very willing to discuss issues. look at evidenc for and against. one issue at a time. throughly I will let the facts do the talking not my feeling or opinions. If EGW is what she claim to be she will pass. If she is not she will not. Side bar" NONE of the SDA doctrines were fromed by EGW. So if you are worried about the loosing your faith in the ADVENT message do worry she never came up with any of our doctrines.

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thanks

reddogs said:

Since Ellen White herself declare she was just a messenger bringing what she was given, not a prophet, why not start with the basics from the Bible as we are directed to do when not clear on a issue or doctrine. I think a study would help on the Holy Spirit to see how it interacts and commicates with Gods people.

1. Psalm 51:11
   Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
2. Isaiah 63:10
   Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
3. Isaiah 63:11
   Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
4. Matthew 1:18
   [ The Birth of Jesus Christ ] This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
5. Matthew 1:20
   But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
   Matthew 1:19-21 (in Context) Matthew 1 (Whole Chapter)
6. Matthew 3:11
   "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
   Matthew 3:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. Matthew 12:32
   Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
   Matthew 12:31-33 (in Context) Matthew 12 (Whole Chapter)
8. Matthew 28:19
   Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
   Matthew 28:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 28 (Whole Chapter)
9. Mark 1:8
   I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
10. Mark 3:29
    But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
11. Mark 12:36
    David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '
12. Mark 13:11
    Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
13. Luke 1:15
    for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
14. Luke 1:35
    The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
15. Luke 1:41
    When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
    Luke 1:40-42 (in Context) Luke 1 (Whole Chapter)
16. Luke 1:67
    [ Zechariah's Song ] His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
17. Luke 2:25
    Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
18. Luke 2:26
    It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
19. Luke 3:16
    John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
20. Luke 3:22
    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
21. Luke 4:1
    [ The Temptation of Jesus ] Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,
22. Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
23. Luke 11:13
    If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
24. Luke 12:10
    And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
25. Luke 12:12
    for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."
26. John 1:33
    I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
27. John 14:26
    But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
28. John 20:22
    And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
29. Acts 1:2
    until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.
30. Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
31. Acts 1:16
    and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—
32. Acts 2:4
    All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
33. Acts 2:33
    Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
34. Acts 4:8
    Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people!
    Acts 4:7-9 (in Context) Acts 4 (Whole Chapter)
35. Acts 4:25
    You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: " 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
    Acts 4:24-26 (in Context) Acts 4 (Whole Chapter)
36. Acts 4:31
    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
    Acts 4:30-32 (in Context) Acts 4 (Whole Chapter)

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reddog

Are you going to respond to any of the issue or continue to change the subject.
Which issues do you consider "hair splitting".

notice EGW says she is more than a prophet and that if you rebel aginst her you are rebelling aginst the holy spirit
Full link
http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw29.htm




Ellen White's Claims


Claims for her writings

"We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings]. ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy." (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298)

Similarities in Message? [SIZE=-1]
Muhammad, the "holy prophet," of Islam[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Your companion [Muhammad] is neither astray nor being misled, nor does he say aught of his own desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: He was taught by one Mighty in Power... So did Allah convey the inspiration to His servant--conveyed what He meant to convey. The Prophet's heart in no way falsified that which he saw. Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
Qu-rãn, S.53, A.2-5, A.10-12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
Mary Baker Eddy, Christian Science Prophet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Mrs. Eddy said she would blush to praise her book Science and Health as she had "were it of human origin, and were I, apart from God, its author."
(Robert Peel, Mary Baker Eddy: The Years of Trial, p. 279) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
Joseph Smith, Mormon Prophet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] "...the Book of Mormon ... contains the truth and the word of God..."
Doctrine and Covenants 19:26 [/SIZE]

"The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 30)
"In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)
"God has outlined His plan in His Word, and in the Testimonies He has sent to His people." (Battle Creek Letters, p. 74)
"The testimonies are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded. (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 217)
"If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66).
"These books contain clear, straight, unalterable truth and they should certainly be appreciated. The instruction they contain is not of human production." (Letter H-339, Dec. 26, 1904)
"These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the last sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 35, 1906)
"When I went to Colorado, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. . . God was speaking through clay. You might say this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, . . . I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 63-67).
"How many have read carefully Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and The Desire of Ages? I wish all to understand that my confidence in the light that God has given stands firm, because I know that the Holy Spirit's power magnified the truth, and made it honorable, saying: 'This is the way, walk ye in it.' In my books, the truth is stated, barricaded by a 'Thus saith the Lord.' The Holy Spirit traced these truths upon my heart and mind as indelibly as the law was traced by the finger of God, upon the tables of stone..." (Letter 90, 1906)
"I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit." (Letter 50, 1906)
"After the passing of the time in 1844 we searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with the brethren, and we studied and prayed earnestly... When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me. I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, his mission, and his priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Review and Herald, May 25, 1905)
"I beg of you for Christ's sake to consider what I say; for I say it not of myself. It is the word of God to you." (Letter 25b, 1895, pp. 1-3, to Brother and Sister Hare, April, 1895)
"In the night season the Lord gives me instruction in symbols, and then explains their meaning. He gives me the word, and I dare not refuse to give it to the people." Ms. 22, 1890. {VSS 398.2}
"At times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past. After I come out of vision I do not at once remember all that I have seen, and the matter is not so clear before me until I write, then the scene rises before me as was presented in vision, and I can write with freedom. Sometimes the things which I have seen are hid from me after I come out of vision, and I cannot call them to mind until I am brought before a company where that vision applies, then the things which I have seen come to my mind with force. I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision, as in having the vision. It is impossible for me to call up things which have been shown me unless the Lord brings them before me at the time that He is pleased to have me relate or write them." (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, pp. 292, 293)
"I testify the things which I have seen, the things which I have heard, the things which my hands have handled of the Word of life. And this testimony I know to be of the Father and the Son. We have seen and do testify that the power of the Holy Ghost has accompanied the presentation of the truth, warning with pen and voice, and giving the messages in their order. To deny this work would be to deny the Holy Ghost, and would place us in that company who have departed from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits." (Selected Messages vol. 2, p. 388)
"It has been presented to me that, so far as possible, I am to impart instruction in the language of the Scriptures; for there are those whose spiritual discernment is confused, and when their errors are reproved, they will misinterpret and misapply what I might write, and thus make of none-effect the words of warning that the Lord sends. He desires that the messages He sends shall be recognized as the words of eternal truth." (Letter 280, 1906, p. 4.)
"I saw the state of some who stood on present truth, but disregarded the visions--the way God had chosen to teach in some cases, those who erred from Bible truth. I saw that in striking against the visions they did not strike against the worm--the feeble instrument that God spake through--but against the Holy Ghost. I saw it was a small thing to speak against the instrument, but it was dangerous to slight the words of God. I saw if they were in error and God chose to show them their errors through visions, and they disregarded the teachings of God through visions, they would be left to take their own way, and run in the way of error, and think they were right, until they would find it out too late. Then in the time of trouble I heard them cry to God in agony, "Why didst Thou not show us our wrong, that we might have got right and been ready for this time?" Then an angel pointed to them and said, "My Father taught, but you would not be taught. He spoke through visions, but you disregarded His voice, and He gave you up to your own ways, to be filled with your own doings." (Broadside, To Those Who Are Receiving the Seal of the Living God, Jan. 31, 1849. Selected Messages Book 1, p. 40)
"The carnal mind is at enmity with God. I entreat the church at Battle Creek to heed the Testimonies of the Spirit of God. Do not say, "I believe them," and then contradict them in your daily life, refusing to walk in accordance with them." (Special Testimony to the Battle Creek Church, p. 11)
"The question is asked, How does Sister White know in regard to the matters of which she speaks so decidedly, as if she had authority to say these things? I speak thus because they flash upon my mind when in perplexity like lightning out of a dark cloud in the fury of a storm. Some scenes presented before me years ago have not been retained in my memory, but when the instruction then given is needed, sometimes even when I am standing before the people, the remembrance comes sharp and clear, like a flash of lightning, bringing to mind distinctly that particular instruction. At such times I cannot refrain from saying the things that flash into my mind, not because I have had a new vision, but because that which was presented to me, perhaps years in the past, has been recalled to my mind forcibly." (Manuscript 33, 1911)

Claims for her self

"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be his messenger. 'Your work,' he instructed me, 'is to bear my word. ... It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances . Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil.' Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies." (Review and Herald, July 26, 1907)
"My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 36, 1906)
"Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, but shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)
"God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work for the past thirty years bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. In arraying yourself against the servants of God you are doing a work either for God or for the devil.” (Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 230)
"One stood by my side, and said: 'God has raised you up, and has given you words to speak to people and to reach hearts, and He has given to no other one.'" (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 667)
"God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)
LInk http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw29.htm for denial made by ellen white

So much for the claim that she was just a messanger

oh I couldn't help my self. here is the rest of the post

http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw29.htm

cont'd from previous post


Visions Establish SDA Doctrines and Beliefs

"In the early days of the message, when our numbers were few, we studied diligently to understand the meaning of many Scriptures. At times it seemed as if no explanation could be given. My mind seemed to be locked to an understanding of the Word; but when our brethren who had assembled for study came to a point where they could go no farther, and had recourse to earnest prayer, the Spirit of God would rest upon me, and I would be taken off in vision, and be instructed in regard to the relation of Scripture to Scripture. These experiences were repeated over and over again. Thus many truths of the third angel's message were established, point by point." (Selected Messages, Book 3, p. 38)
"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers, pp. 56-57)

Infallibility

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 37)
"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible... We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, will be disappointed..." (Counsels to Writers and Editors, pp. 35-39)

Ellen White's Denials

"I did not read any works upon health until I had written Spiritual Gifts, volumes 3 & 4, Appeal to Mothers, and had sketched out most of my six numbers of How to Live" (Review and Herald, Oct. 8, 1867)
"My views were written independent of books or of the opinions of others." (Manuscript 7, 1867)
"And here I would state that although I am dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in writing my views as I am in receiving them, yet the words I employ in describing what I have seen are my own, unless they be those spoken to me by an angel, which I always enclose in marks of quotation." (Review and Herald, Oct. 8, 1867)
"I have not been in the habit of reading any doctrinal articles in the paper, that my mind should not have any understanding of anyone's ideas and views, and that not a mold of any man's theories should have any connection with that which I write." . (Letter 37, 1887, p. 1. To E. J. Waggoner and A. T. Jones, Feb. 18, 1887; 3SM p. 63.)
"If Mrs. White has gathered the facts from a human mind in a single case she has in thousands of cases, and God has not shown her these things which she has written in these personal testimonies." (James White, Life Sketches (1880), p. 328)

Claims made by the SDA Church about Ellen White

"The perpetuity of the [spiritual] gifts is one of the fundamental points in the belief of this people and with those who differ with us here we can have union and fellowship to no greater extent than we can have with those who differ with us in the other important subjects of the coming of Christ, baptism, the Sabbath, etc. . . . It is a fact that those who reject the gifts do not have true union with the body. From the very nature of the case, they cannot have it." (Uriah Smith, Review, January 14, 1862)
"Nothing is surer than this, that this message and the visions [of Mrs. White] belong together, and stand or fall together." (Review and Herald, Supplement, August 14, 1883)
"The writings of Mrs. E. G. White were never designed to be an addition to the canon of Scripture. They are, nevertheless, the messages of God to the remnant church, and should be received as such, the same as were the messages of the prophets of old." (Review & Herald, October 4, 1928)
"As Samuel was a prophet to Israel in his day, as Jeremiah was a prophet to Israel in the day of captivity, as John the Baptist came as a special messenger of the Lord to prepare the way of Christ's appearing, so we believe that Mrs. White was a prophet to the church of Christ today. And the same as the messages of the prophets were received in old days, so her messages should be received at present times." (Ibid.)
On page 78 of the first SDA Church Manual one of the questions asked to prospective baptisimal candidates is: "Do you believe the Bible doctrine of 'spiritual gifts' in the church, and do you believe in the gift of the Spirit of prophecy which has been manifested in the remnant church through the ministry and writings of Mrs. Ellen G. White?" (1932)
As God's messenger, Ellen White spoke with decision and authority. "I speak that which I have seen, and which I know to be true."[wash my mouth] Letter 4, 1896. "I implore you [the church members] not to treat this matter with your criticisms and speculations but as the voice of God to you."-Letter 36, 1890. The messages were not to be parried..." Ellen G. White: The Human Interest Story, Arthur L. White.

icedragon101 said:

To those: who have been posting, DL, Reddog, Rc_protastant, or any other could you tell us the following
1. how long have you been a christian?
2. How long have you been associated with the SDA chruch? born and raised, converted from other demoniation, converted from no religion, other
3. What is your personal view of EGW?
4. What is your view of the critics, please feel free to state specifice critics and your views of them?
5. How much time have you spent investigating the claims that EGW was a prophet. please site reasons why you beleve EGW is a prophet? be specific.
6. please state how much time you have spent looking into the issues raised by the critic and your understanding of them. List specific issues. plagerism, shut door theroy, health problems, Iseral Damon trial, James white editing issues, DM canwright issus or others.
7. Please state how willing you are to explore these issues? from 1-10. 1 being not will to 10 being very willing.

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please respond to this post It is #70

I would like to highlight something from icedragon's posts, especially this one, particularly these quotes:

EGW said:

"For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position."

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EGW said:

"I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, or Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false....With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state that no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point....I never have stated or written that the world was doomed or damned. I never have under any circumstances used this language to any one, however sinful. I have ever had messages of reproof for those who used these harsh expressions." Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 74.

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EGW said:

"Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. IT WAS JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO GET ON THE PATH AGAIN AND GO TO THE CITY, AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED."

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James White said:

"When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, [where her parents then resided] had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God" A Word to the Little Flock, 1847, p.22.

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EGW said:

"Brother Bates, you write in a letter to James something about the Bridegroom's coming, as stated in the first published visions. By the letter you would like to know whether I had light on the Bridegroom's coming before I saw it in vision. I can readily answer, No. The Lord showed me the travail of the Advent band and midnight cry in December, but did not show me the Bridegroom's coming until February following. "Perhaps you would like to have me give a statement in relation to both visions. At the time I had the vision of the midnight cry I had given it up in the past and thought it future, as also most of the band had. I know not what time J. Turner got out his paper. I knew he had one out and one was in the house, but I knew not what was in it, for I had not read a word in it. I had been, and still was very sick. I took no interest in reading, for it injured my head and made me nervous.

"After I had the vision and God gave me light, he bade me deliver it to the band, but I shrank from it. I was young, and I thought they would not receive it from me. I disobeyed the Lord, and instead of remaining at home, where the meeting was to be that night, I got in a sleigh in the morning and rode three or four miles and there I found Joseph Turner. He merely inquired how I was and if I was in the way of my duty. I said nothing, for I knew I was not.

"I passed up [to the] chamber and did not see him again for two hours, when he came up, asked if I was to be at meeting that night. I told him, no. He said he wanted to hear my vision and thought it duty for me to go home. I told him I should not. He said no more, but went away.

"I thought, and told those around me, if I went I would have to come out against his views, thinking he believed with the rest. I had not told any of them what God had shown me, and I did not tell them in what I should cross his track...

"Very early next morning Joseph Turner called, said he was in haste going out of the city in a short time, and wanted I should tell him all that God had shown me in vision. It was with fear and trembling I told him all. After I had got through he said he had told out the same last evening. I rejoiced, for I had expected he was coming out against me, for all the while I had not heard any one say what he believed. He said the Lord had sent him to talk the evening before, but as I would not, he meant his children should have the light in some way, so he took him.

"There were but few out when he talked, so the next meeting I told my vision, and the band, believing my visions from God, received what God bade me deliver to them.

"The view about the Bridegroom's coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others. Many of them did not believe in a shut door. I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting. Unbelief seemed to be on every hand.

"There was one sister there that was called very spiritual. She had traveled and been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel. But a division had risen in the band on the shut door. She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut. I had known nothing of their difference. Sister Durben got up to talk. I felt very, very sad.

"At length my soul seemed to be in agony, and while she was talking I fell from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest as Bridegroom to receive His kingdom. They were all deeply interested in the view. They all said it was entirely new to them. The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts.
"Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her. When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben's singing and shouting with a loud voice.

"Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected him to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month. I did not hear a lecture or a word in any relating to the Bridegroom's going to the holiest."
(Letter B-3-1847, Letter to Joseph Bates, July 13, 1847)

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After 1851, Ellen White claimed that she had held to the shut-door teaching for only a short time, before her first vision, and that she had never taught it or stopped laboring for those in the world, but the quotes from her own early writings (which were later edited to remove any such indications) and from James' writings, especially his description of her first vision and his claim that it led her to accept the shut door, show otherwise. I can't see a way to take this other than that she lied about her early teachings and beliefs and even about her visions. She did use her earliest visions and the authority that she claimed they gave her to teach the shut door theory and to condemn those who had heard and rejected the Millerite message and the shut-door doctrine.

Adventist leaders have in the past also been deceptive in publishing her writings but deleting portions that indicated that she had ever taught the shut door. They have in more recent years put back some of these statements; they are included in the EGW CD, for example (sometimes with bracketed parenthetical notes saying that they don't actually say what they appear to say). I think that the only reason they have done this, though, is that they were found out and had no choice. So they have "rectified" the situation by explaining it away and saying that she didn't really mean what she originally wrote the way it sounded, that her words were ambiguous, and that she never actually taught the shut door.

This is a serious matter to me because I can't accept someone who lied as a prophet. Some of the other issues, such as whether she was mistaken in certain interpretations that seem to contradict the Bible, pale in comparison to this. Dishonesty is not a mark of a true prophet.

Also, even more than the deception, we have the fact that according to EGW's own words, her earliest visions supported the shut-door doctrine. Her visions were wrong, especially in that her accompanying angel told her that the time was past for sinners to be saved. Later reinterpretations of these visions and editing of them to support the new views just are not sufficient to explain away the errors in the early Adventist doctrines and in the visions of EGW. A vision that teaches error can't be from God.

icedragon101 said:

In relating the Topsham vision (already referred to), Sister White said that she “was shown that the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door, could not be separated.” The last part of that vision should read as follows:

“I saw that the mysterious signs, and wonders, and false reformations would increase, and spread. The reformations that were shown me, were not reformations from error to truth; but from bad to worse; for those who professed a change of heart, had only wrapped about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted so as to deceive God’s people; but if their hearts could be seen, they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past.”39 [Ellen White, Present Truth, August 1849]

The passage printed in red was contained in the vision as originally published; but has been omitted from Early Writings. See page 45 of the new edition, and page 37 of the old edition.

This paragraph plainly teaches that the time for the salvation of sinners was past.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30767044&postcount=42

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Sophia7 said:

Also, even more than the deception, we have the fact that according to EGW's own words, her earliest visions supported the shut-door doctrine. Her visions were wrong, especially in that her accompanying angel told her that the time was past for sinners to be saved. Later reinterpretations of these visions and editing of them to support the new views just are not sufficient to explain away the errors in the early Adventist doctrines and in the visions of EGW. A vision that teaches error can't be from God.

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Lets consider the timeline:

1844 October and the Millerites' view on the shut door.

1844 December Ellen White received her first vision.

Her view was corrected by the new light.

I think the quotes here are clear:

1. Ellen White never claimed to receive visions prior to Dec-1844.

2. Ellen White's understanding of the shut door was corrected by God through the Dec-1844 and subsequence visions.

3. There is no direct indication that these quotes EGW wrote to support her earlier view on the shut door.

The Bible does support the shut down. There will be a time just prior to Christ's 2nd coming, the probation is closed. And for each individual, probation can be closed due to the constant rejections. The enemies of Adventism cleverly confuse this shut door with the shut door of Millerites' understanding.

If the enemies of our denomination are going to charge EGW with lying and deceiving, they will need stronger more direct evidence than this. The bible also says Judas hanged himself and go do likewise. We need to show the two are talking about the same thing.

What about the quotes I asked earlier to support your statement that EGW contradicted herself on the law in Galatians? Have you been able to find it?