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Why Criticism of Traditional Churches is Wrong

Optimax

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Well, I derived much enjoyment from collaborating with a Baptist member, @Der Alter , to show that non-Trinitarianism is unscriptural. I have also enjoyed refuting attempts to legitimize Gnostic scriptures, KJV Onlyism, non-KJV Onlyism (the erroneous belief that the KJV and other older translations are inherently defective and worthless), iconoclasm, historical errors made by Landmark baptists and Ellen G. White, and so on.

However, I am most specifically interested in defending the historic churches: Orthodox, Catholic, Assyrian, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist and so on, from unwarranted criticism from people who adhere to unusual modern theologies. It is important work, and I enjoy doing it. Perhaps I enjoy it too much, but since I do enjoy it, and since I seem to be ablt eot do ot successfully on this forum, I intend to continue doing it, for the benefit of the members of these churches.

Interesting.

Most "historic churches" such as Methodist as well as Lutheran either began very scripturally such as the Methodist.

Some like the Lutherans had a great move(s) of God in times past but drifted from those truths learned and experienced in those moves.

By the way, I do not consider myself anywhere near "expert" on church history. I do know about some events that took place though.
 
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Wgw

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Interesting.

Most "historic churches" such as Methodist as well as Lutheran either began very scripturally such as the Methodist.

Some like the Lutherans had a great move(s) of God in times past but drifted from those truths learned and experienced in those moves.

By the way, I do not consider myself anywhere near "expert" on church history. I do know about some events that took place though.

Whereas I consider myself, if not an expert, sufficiently well versed to be able to refute as baseless much of the vitriolic criticism hurled at these churches from some posters.
 
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Soyeong

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The problem is that your assumption that Eastern Christians would not challenge positions that "needed changing" comes across as an Occidentalist smear, in my view.

I'm not trying to smear you, I'm just saying that if a group does something that is wrong, then other groups who do the same thing are also wrong. If a group was wrong but no one thought they were, then you can draw your own conclusions about the source of the error, but they would be nevertheless in error. I'm not sure how you can disagree or take offence at this.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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What does this discussion have to do with the topic of this thread, by the way? The point of this thread is to discuss why criticism of traditional churches is or is not wrong, not to engage in a discussion of charismatic Christianity, a subject I personally find rather dull. I mean, it's not like there aren't many hundreds of other threads I could have opted to participate in had I wished to discuss that.

My fault, I took the bait.:sorry::sorry:
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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We were discussing some of the ways "eminent theologian's" "well-informed scriptural objections" are not scripturally correct as supposed by some.

That is on topic.

Perhaps we should move to another topic that "eminent theologian's" "well-informed scriptural objections" are not scripturally correct as supposed by some.

Respectfully Optimax,

Some of us were discussing some of the ways that "eminent Theologian's" "well-informed scriptural opinions are scriptural correct as supported by many.;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I have to confess, I am growing weary of threads criticizing the doctrines, praxis and liturgical rites of the traditional and in some cases ancient churches: the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, and traditional Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and so on.

These arguments tend to take the form of an attack on some practice which is incorrectly regarded as being of Pagan origin.
In many cases, they take the form of an argument against Roman Catholicism, predicated on the fallacious oremise that Catholics believe X, therefore X is Pagan/wrong/evil, traditional Protestants believe also believe X, therefore traditional Protestants are either Pagan/wrong/evil or lukewarm.......................
Which one of those Denominations do you recommend to us non-traditional Denominations?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/denominations-doctrinal-theological-differences.7908121/
denominations-doctrinal-theological-differences

Isaiah J said:
I've been a Christian for six years and I really don't know what denomination I belong to, if any. I attend an Assembly of God church currently, which I know is a Pentecostal organization, but I really don't know what makes Pentecostals different from, say, Baptists, or Methodists, or Lutherans, or Protestants... etc.

1. If you want to know what Roman Catholics believe study The Catechism of the Catholic Church (available online).

2. If you want to know what Reformed Protestants believe study The Westminster Confession of Faith (also online).

3. If you want to know what other evangelical and fundamentalist Christians (including Baptists and Pentecostals) believe, study their Statements of Faith.

4. If you just want straight Bible doctrine, study the Word of God -- the Holy Bible.

After that you will have a pretty good idea as to where to look for sound Bible doctrine.


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Wgw

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Which one of those Denominations do you recommend to us non-traditional Denominations?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/denominations-doctrinal-theological-differences.7908121/
denominations-doctrinal-theological-differences






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images
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Well I mean, obviously, I'm Orthodox, but that isn't really the point of this thread. Mark is Lutheran. This isn't about reccommending a denomination, it's about my frustration with the constant bashing of the liturgy, praxis and faith of these traditional churches.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Well I mean, obviously, I'm Orthodox, but that isn't really the point of this thread. Mark is Lutheran.
This isn't about reccommending a denomination, it's about my frustration with the constant bashing of the liturgy, praxis and faith of these traditional churches.
Can you give some examples. And what constitutes "bashing", compared to constructive debate/discussion?
I didn't think bashing was allowed on CF? If that happens in a thread, just report it. I would think it is a very small minority of members that engage in that type of behavior on here, but I can't be sure.



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MarkRohfrietsch

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Well I mean, obviously, I'm Orthodox, but that isn't really the point of this thread. Mark is Lutheran. This isn't about reccommending a denomination, it's about my frustration with the constant bashing of the liturgy, praxis and faith of these traditional churches.

That and the efficacy of the the sacraments/sacramental nature of our Churches.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Evidently some folk think of sacraments as magic potions or spells and of the christians who indulge in them as little more than pagans with charms and spells and potions to offer. Naturally such people also think their beliefs are right and want to evangelise the traditionalists who are (in their opinions) pagans in need of salvation.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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I have to confess, I am growing weary of threads criticizing the doctrines, praxis and liturgical rites of the traditional and in some cases ancient churches: the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians, and traditional Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and so on.

These arguments tend to take the form of an attack on some practice which is incorrectly regarded as being of Pagan origin. In many cases, they take the form of an argument against Roman Catholicism, predicated on the fallacious oremise that Catholics believe X, therefore X is Pagan/wrong/evil, traditional Protestants believe also believe X, therefore traditional Protestants are either Pagan/wrong/evil or lukewarm.

That structure od the argument is particularly annoying in light of the existence of the Eastern chuches: EO, OO and Assyrian, which were never Roman Catholic, and which provides what amounts to an independent validation of the legitimacy of Catholic and traditional Protestant faith, practice and worship.

Such arguments are also contrary to ecumenical reconciliation, which, contrary to popular belief, is not a diabolical conspiracy to create a one world religion of the anti-Christ, although I would be the first to criticize the Ecumenical Movement in general, and the WCC in particular for occasional excesses, self-defeating acts and outright silliness, for example, the risible Re-Imagining Conference in the early 1990s.

Attacks on the traditional faith also come from the liberal, postmodern, modernist and progressive approaches to theology, which tend to want to bash the traditional Christian faith as being Patriarchal, legalistic, misogynistic, sexually oppressive, and so on, to an extent that is either untrue or reflects a confusion about Christian morality. To some extent, the reactionary sort of chaps who attack traditional Christianity on the basis of extreme hostility to Roman Catholics play into this, by creating a caricature of traditional Christianity which people outside of the Body of Christ confuse with the "real thing." A particularly extreme and unpleasant example of this would be the notorious Westboro Baptist Church.

In closing, I propose that this criticism is wrong, as it is based on false premises, a false dichotomy, and a spirit which lacks proper respect for other Christians, particularly those Christians from centuries past who defended the faith against all odds.

I used to think such a way, but then I began to wonder if different styles of worship were really wrong if the group doing it still followed the fundamental basics of christianity? I then took a cultural anthropology course in college and it just confirmed what I was thinking.. Different worship styles and practices are not heretical as long as they do not not deviant from the core tenets of Christianity. The problems and conflicts I think between denominations is that they believe their style of worship is the correct and only way, when in reality it is the way that works for their cultural context, and as we are all prisoners to our culture.. we tend to view highly of our own culture and sometimes view it better than others.. and so we also tend to believe our style of worship and faith, which reflects our core culture, as the only way. Just like our culture can be viewed as the only way.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The Lord warned that folk would hate the faithful because they were not of the world.
A lot of folk in religious meetings are no more christian than is your local synagogue member or your local mosque member.
I suppose that could be correct........

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?...........

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Jhn 8:
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?
23 And He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above.
You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;
for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Jhn 15:19
“If you were of the world, the world would love its own.
Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.


Jhn 17:
14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.


Jhn 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews;
but now My kingdom is not from here.”



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ViaCrucis

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<Staff Edit>

You call the Charismatic movement a "move of God", most of us would call it a departure from biblical teaching and the intrinsic nature of Lutheran confessionalism dependent upon the objective and external truths of God's Word and Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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topcare

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Wgw

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There is a safe for us Traditional Christians here the Traditional Theology forum http://www.christianforums.com/forums/traditional-theology.1149/ even though those that are from the new Christianity try to horn in there

Indeed so, although the point of this thread is to critique the continual attacks on us posted elsewhere. My view is that traditional Christianity should not be a minority tucked away out of sight in our own "safe space," but should rather be regarded as the natural expression of our faith.
 
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topcare

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Indeed so, although the point of this thread is to critique the continual attacks on us posted elsewhere. My view is that traditional Christianity should not be a minority tucked away out of sight in our own "safe space," but should rather be regarded as the natural expression of our faith.

On that I agree but these forums especially GT are lead by a majority of those into new Theology and Christianity so we are always going to get negativity on us because of our desire to keep authentic verifiable Christianity. I wish their new Theology was the one that needed the safe haven and not Traditional Christians. It is very sad that they attack us by parroting what they heard instead of finding out that Traditional Christianity is the right and really only way
 
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Wordkeeper

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I find it ironic that the traditionalists seek to defend themselves by attacking those who attack.

Isn't there a saying that the tolerant are the most intolerant since they do not tolerate the intolerant (?) :


Paradox of tolerance

The paradox of tolerance arises when a tolerant person holds antagonistic views towards intolerance, and hence is intolerant of it. The tolerant individual would then be by definition intolerant of intolerance.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance


Better to admit the need for intolerance.


It's Scriptural:



1 John 4:1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


The only people interested in maintaining the status quo are the lazy :


Matthew 25:26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?



How can anyone be complacent when warned the subject matter is complex?



John 16:12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


Don't forget :

Ecclesia semper reformanda est (Latin for "the church is always to be reformed", often - as usual in Latin - shortened to Ecclesia semper reformanda) is a phrase first used by Karl Barth in 1947, deriving from a saying of St. Augustine.[1] It refers to the conviction of certain Reformed Protestant theologians that the church must continually re-examine itself in order to maintain its purity of doctrine and practice. An early example is Jodocus van Lodenstein, Beschouwinge van Zion (Contemplation of Zion), Amsterdam, 1674-1678,[2] who claims the "truth [...] that also in the Church there is always much to reform" ("Sekerlijk de Gereformeerde Waarheyd [...] leert dat in de Kerke ook altijd veel te herstellen is"[3]).

Let's not make complacency a virtue. Not in the subject of God, anyway.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_semper_reformanda_est
 
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