Why creationists reject evolution

[corvus_corax]

Clay under a seal is usually flat. But what is being described here is the earth taking shape; The seal is clearly a metaphor, and therefore any physical properties that the earth would have to have to be stamped by a seal are of no account.

(emphasis mine)
Of course the seal is a metaphor...
In YOUR interpretation of the verse.

Which, of course, brings us back to some of the core issues brought up on this thread. You interpret the bible to fit your worldview, flat-earthers interpret the bible to fit their worldview, Creationists interpret the bible to fit their worldview and TE's likewise interpret the bible to fit their worldview.

You, RWG, are doing nothing more than applying your personal bias and worldview to the bible. Your view finds a flat earth to be unrealistic, so you interpret the bible in such a way that you see a spherical earth written about. Likewise, flat earthers find a spherical earth to be unrealistic, and so interpret the bible to support their view.

Justify your personal worldview all you want, but you are no more correct in your interpretation than a flat earther.

Of course, your interpretation assumes a certain arrogance, as you seem to be claiming to understand the language, mindset and cosmology of the ancient Hebrew better than they themselves did.
Likewise, many early Christian writers (such as Cyril of Jerusalem, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Boniface, and Pope Zacharias) spoke of a flat earth and stated that the teaching of a round earth was contrary to scripture. As a matter of fact, Zacharias stated that if it were found that Vergilius were holding to the "doctrine" of a round earth, then Vergilius would be "expelled from the Church and deprived of his priestly dignity".

 

[funyun]

Was it just a lucky guess that The Orion open star cluster is loose and disintegrating and the Pleiades cluster stars are gravitationally bound?

Were these also lucky guesses?



Bible passage: Ezekiel 26:12
Written: between 587-586 BC
Fulfilled: 333-332 BC
In Ezekiel 26:12, the prophet said that Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea. That probably would have been a fitting description of how Alexander the Great built a land bridge from the mainland to the island of Tyre when he attacked in 333-332 BC. It is believed that he took the rubble from Tyre's mainland ruins and tossed it - stones, timber and soil - into the sea, to build the land bridge (which is still there).
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Ezekiel 26:12
They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.



Bible passage: Isaiah 45:1
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 539 BC
In Isaiah 45:1, the prophet said God would open the gates of Babylon for Cyrus and his attacking army. Despite Babylon's remarkable defenses, which included moats, and walls that were more than 70-feet thick and 300-feet high, and 250 watchtowers, Cyrus was able to enter the city and conquer it. Cyrus and his troops diverted the flow of the Euphrates River into a large lake basin. Cyrus then was able to march his army across the riverbed and into the city.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Isaiah 45:1
"This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:









Bible passage: Isaiah 14:23
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 539 BC
In Isaiah 14:23, the prophet said that Babylon, which had been a world power at two different times in history, would be brought to a humble and final end. It would be reduced to swampland. After Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BC, the kingdom never again rose to power. The buildings of Babylon fell into a gradual state of ruin during the next several centuries. Archaeologists excavated Babylon during the 1800s. Some parts of the city could not be dug up because they were under a water table that had risen over the years.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Isaiah 14:23
"I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the Lord Almighty.

Bait and switch. Classic. No, they are not lucky guesses, because in order to even be classified as guesses they would actually have to pertain to the topic on which you claim they act as predictions. Instead they are vague and poetic verses about nothing actually physical, which you interprate and fit in any nook or cranny available that makes some iota of sense.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Please excuse the page two bump but I would actually like an explanation from Nipper and RWG.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Since I bumped it I might as well give the rest of you something good to read…

The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.

 

[Valkhorn]

In Job 38:1,31 it says; "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?"
Now how did Job, 4000 years ago, know about gravitational effects on star clusters?

Those are constellations. Furthermore they were constellations in the firmament, and they thought that they would never move.

Guess what, we know today that the stars do move and the shape of constellations do change.

Got any more bright ideas?

 

[Joman]

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The Bible doesn't state that the "the circle of the earth" hangs upon nothing.

Joman.

 

[Joman]

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." A spherical earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22 - "the circle of the earth."

Both of these are false. "Circle" in verse 10 is "compassed". And, "circle" in Isaiah 40:21 is not a sphere. Of course RWG might debate me on this.

Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

To compass a thing doesn't require a precisely geometric circle, it only requires that the space or area in consideration be completely surrounded.
Note: This truth came about after the flood of Noah because of the promise of God to not allow the waters to overflow the whole earth again as was done in the Deluge. Therefore, the chicken little crowd is banty about their melting ice phobia.
Night and day do not come to and end until the new heaven and the new earth are created.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23: That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

Verse 21 isn't saying that the earth is a circle as opposed to a sphere, although it must be admitted that a sphere is a circular construct.
What it is saying is that the Lord God sits in the North (as is understood by other scriptural statements) above and upon the top of the "celestial sphere" which when you look down "sits" upon the "circle" of the earth (it's orbit). This does imply that the earth has correspondence to God's throne. It is positioned as a footstool is. and, the implication is also that the earth is of great consequence in the layout of the universe.

Joman.

 

[Joman]

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

This verse means that the universe is defined by up, down and the four cardinal directions. The use of the word "depth" instead of "deep" points to the actual measure to the greatest depth of the "deep". The "deep" being the watery place in heaven where the earth was submerged until the rebellion of Satan.

Joman.

 

[Joman]

Tell me how you grab the edges of a ball RWG? Keepin mind that FSTDT has already shown here that there were distinct words availavle to differentiate ball (sphere) from circle (disc).

Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13: That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

It is the sun (dayspring) that by it's light takes hold of the ends of the earth not physical hands. Lasers have been used to take hold of small spheres with light such that the pressure/volume relationship is voided so that the pressure increases before the volume can change. Anyway, the "wicked" are shaken out by the fact that they abhore light (truth). This verse will one day come to pass when the true Daystar comes and the true Light shines.

Joman.

 

[Joman]

Tell me how you can see the entire world, at any height, if it is a globe?

With "six" satellites. Or, spiritual revelation.

Same here. If the writers thought you could actually see the entire world if you could view it from a high altitude then it’s blatantly obvious that the world they envisioned is like the one Dragar has posted.

Here you referenced Daniel 4:10-11.
This is coming to pass right before your eyes. The tree in Daniel is the allegory of the socialistic nature of the coming "one world government". The final "one world government" will be seen by all the inhabitants of the world. Once again the "height" in the allegory is fulfilled by the satellite system (six) that provides the global community with all the info (tv,radio,finance) needed for global unity.

Joman.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Okay Joman… now this is the part where you step up and explain the methodology by which you obviously interpret parts of the bible and take others literally. You’ve done a great job displaying the mental acrobatics necessary to interpret those parts of the bible that do not make sense in light of our current scientific knowledge. Now I ask that you explain why and how this isn’t the exact same case with evolution.

 

[Joman]

The more out of sync your religious beliefs get with reality the more you will find yourself on the fringe.

What "fringe" are you communicating? A literal one? an allegorical one? Are we supposed to understand your speech? If so, and you actually are trying to understand the Bible, please try a little harder to grasp what God is saying. I know it's a difficult book but I think you can come up to speed with some effort on your part.

Joman.

 

[Joman]

Okay Joman… now this is the part where you step up and explain the methodology by which you obviously interpret parts of the bible and take others literally. You’ve done a great job displaying the mental acrobatics necessary to interpret those parts of the bible that do not make sense in light of our current scientific knowledge. Now I ask that you explain why and how this isn’t the exact same case with evolution.

With respect to "explanitory" power, evolution makes tremendous use of the inventive, reasoning minds of it's adherents. I have no problem with that at all. But, in rebuttal it my job as a debater to counter your reasonings with reasons of my own. Such is the nature of this debate.
The acrobatics you say I use are not mere invention. Try to understand the Christian such as I'am. Unlike you, when I read the Bible I believe it is written by God. When I come to a difficult verse I don't dismiss it quickly just because my first impression is that it doesn't make sense or is contradictory. I investigate the Bible for a clear understanding as to what God is saying. That may take some time and some prayer on my part.

Let me give you an example. Would you suppose that a ancient, arcane book of lore would be able in it's modernless language to depict a future ability to program computers for targeting of warfare objectives?

Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

The phrase "forecast his devices" can be rendered in "program his machines". Thus it can be seen in this passage concerning the coming of the Antichrist and his means of taking over the one world government that "cruise missles" (for example) will be used against opposers to him.

In my mind this interpretation is quite straight forward and not due to acrobatics. But, you may, think it's foolish rambling on my part.

Joman.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

The phrase "forecast his devices" can be rendered in "program his machines". Thus it can be seen in this passage concerning the coming of the Antichrist and his means of taking over the one world government that "cruise missles" (for example) will be used against opposers to him.
In my mind this interpretation is quite straight forward and not due to acrobatics. But, you may, think it's foolish rambling on my part.
Joman.

I think the TEs interpretation of the bible to reconcile genesis with the Theory of Evolution is much more straight forward than the example you just gave. So again, what makes you except an interpreted part and reject another?

 

[Joman]

Okay Joman… now this is the part where you step up and explain the methodology by which you obviously interpret parts of the bible and take others literally.

I have no problem doing this but, it means that I must go deeply into the text to show how the verses correspond.

Let me give you an example of my methodology.
(1) The Bible has only one author.
(2) The author defines his own definitions.
(3) The author is speaking to all generations.
(4) The author hides his deeper meaning from unbelievers by requiring faith.
(5) The Bible cannot be privately interpreted.
(6) The Book is accurate.
(7) There is only one Bible. (All others are false versions)
(8) The scripture cannot be broken.

These are examples of my means of understanding.

Joman.

 

[Opethian]

I'd rather say they're examples of your means of being brainwashed.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

These are examples of my means of understanding.

And still, none of your examples explain why and how you reason that the bible should be interpreted for things like spherical earth and… umm... programming cruise missiles but not to reconcile the Theory of Evolution.

 

[Industriaan]

Only one writer, euh of whom are u talking Joman?

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

And once again… silence.

Here we stand. I have asked what should be a very simple question of three creationists and, because they have painted themselves into a corner by defending the bible’s inerrancy via creative interpretation, they can not answer.

The sad truth is that you are silent because you can’t answer. You’ve just taken what your religious leader has fed you without critical examination and now you realize that you simply don’t know why you take parts of the bible literally and interpret others.

Please take this as a wake up call and at least seek out your spiritual leaders, ask them questions, and question the answers.

All I want is for you to think for yourselves.

 

[Joman]

And still, none of your examples explain why and how you reason that the bible should be interpreted for things like spherical earth and… umm... programming cruise missiles but not to reconcile the Theory of Evolution

I think I have. All that is required is more specific examples that's all.
I cannot reconcile ToE because it attacks the lineage of Jesus of Nazareth by attacking the lineage of Adam. Many might think this not important but, it's important to me because the logic leads to blaspheme by concluding that Adam (and thus Jesus of Nazareth) is the "son of a beast".
I think of evolution, in it's true sense, as being well fit to the text of the Bible. But, the idea of macro-evolutionary change is nonsensical to me. I think that if macro-evoluionary change were the norm that there wouldn't be any debate since many examples of such change would have been witnessed.

As to the idea of a spherical earth. I haven't interpreted any verse as saying that the earth is spherical (which of course we all know it's not a perfect sphere) I understood one verse to mean that the circle of the earth is the circle it makes about the sun by it's orbit (although we all know it's not a perfect circle). Which, is a circle when viewed from high above.

Joman.