Why Creation Science is Bogus

[The Barbarian]

That doesn't make sense because the soul is not a unformed gas floating in your body, it actually is compatible with the body

It's not matter at all. It's not material. As Genesis says, God gives us a soul directly. Now, some might say that He couldn't do this to just any sort of body. For those of us who think He's the almighty Creator, that's not a valid objection.

Moreover, you're assuming that God isn't capable of using contingency to effect His will. Which is also wrong.

 

[eleos1954]

Have you read Paul Seelys article, the firmament and the water above?

no

 

[Dale]

That doesn't make sense because the soul is not a unformed gas floating in your body, it actually is compatible with the body, and work together, God designed us like he wanted, we are no product of random mutations, which is ridiculous something could be built like complex good stuff like that.

NBB,

The trouble is that you seem to be imposing your idea of the soul on scripture. There is no section of the Bible that lays out exactly what the soul is. The New Testament conception of the soul appears to be significantly different from the Old Testament idea.

You seem to be saying that the soul can’t be separated from the body. I don’t think the following verses are consistent with that.

If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit [Or Spirit]
and breath,
all mankind would perish together and man would return to
the dust.
Job 34:14-15 NIV​

As I said earlier, evolution has no position on the soul, so you’re just jumbling up different issues.

The human race today has quite a bit of diversity. There are different skin colors, different facial structures and so forth. How did all the types of people we have living today descend from Adam and Eve if not by random mutation?

I don’t believe that Adam and Eve were literal people, but I put that to you as a thought experiment.

 

[SilverBear]

The fact that there are PhD-level scientists who are creationists and do research makes it a viable science.

and who are these scientists?

 

[Dale]

-​

Creation science promotes the same ole creation lie as pagan science minus Adam/Eve and a young earth. Creation science is against evolution and billion of years for earth age but that is basically it for their differences.

Neither one teaches the literal Biblical creation/descriptions found in Genesis 1 and other areas of The Bible.

Dtaylor,

You make an interesting point that instead of solving the problem, creation science gives us a third –ism that is neither science nor religion. It has neither evidence nor faith in its favor.

 

[The Barbarian]

and who are these scientists?

There are a few who actually know what they are talking about, do not deny the evidence for evolution, and still hold to YE creationism. They include Kurt Wise, Todd Wood, and Gerald Aardsma. Each has a particular way of dealing with the evidence problem. I think all of them are sincere in their attempt to deal with it.

 

[Dale]

and who are these scientists?

Take a look at Bryan College, in Dayton, Tennessee. It is named after William Jennings Bryan, the prosecutor in the Scopes trial.

Bryan College offers a Bachelor’s degree in biology.

I once did a thread on how researchers at Bryan College are doing research into baraminology, the study of Biblical kinds.

<< William Jennings Bryan University was chartered in 1930 and admitted its first class in the fall of that year. Its stated purpose was, and is, to provide “for the higher education of men and women under auspices distinctly Christian and spiritual.” In 1958 its name was changed to William Jennings Bryan College and in 1993 was shortened to Bryan College. >>

Link
History » Bryan College | Dayton, TN

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[rjs330]

I think it would be more correct to say that a banana tree evolved from bacteria than an amoeba.

Keep in mind that the Bible doesn’t say how long this process took. Many commentators regard the “days” in Genesis One to be more like dividers or section headings than literal days.

The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
-Genesis 1:12 NIV


It says the “land produced vegetation.” That means that rocks and sand produced vegetation, living things that reproduce. Is that so different from what science tell us?

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.”
-Genesis 1:20 NIV

Living creatures, animals, emerged in the seas. Again, this is not so different from what science tells us.

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

 

[rjs330]

I think it would be more correct to say that a banana tree evolved from bacteria than an amoeba.

Keep in mind that the Bible doesn’t say how long this process took. Many commentators regard the “days” in Genesis One to be more like dividers or section headings than literal days.

The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
-Genesis 1:12 NIV


It says the “land produced vegetation.” That means that rocks and sand produced vegetation, living things that reproduce. Is that so different from what science tell us?

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.”
-Genesis 1:20 NIV

Living creatures, animals, emerged in the seas. Again, this is not so different from what science tells us.

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

 

[rjs330]

NBB,

The trouble is that you seem to be imposing your idea of the soul on scripture. There is no section of the Bible that lays out exactly what the soul is. The New Testament conception of the soul appears to be significantly different from the Old Testament idea.

You seem to be saying that the soul can’t be separated from the body. I don’t think the following verses are consistent with that.

If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit [Or Spirit]
and breath,
all mankind would perish together and man would return to
the dust.
Job 34:14-15 NIV​

As I said earlier, evolution has no position on the soul, so you’re just jumbling up different issues.

The human race today has quite a bit of diversity. There are different skin colors, different facial structures and so forth. How did all the types of people we have living today descend from Adam and Eve if not by random mutation?

I don’t believe that Adam and Eve were literal people, but I put that to you as a thought experiment.

Can you tell me where divine mythology or story ends and real history begins in Genesis?

 

[rjs330]

NBB,

The trouble is that you seem to be imposing your idea of the soul on scripture. There is no section of the Bible that lays out exactly what the soul is. The New Testament conception of the soul appears to be significantly different from the Old Testament idea.

You seem to be saying that the soul can’t be separated from the body. I don’t think the following verses are consistent with that.

If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit [Or Spirit]
and breath,
all mankind would perish together and man would return to
the dust.
Job 34:14-15 NIV​

As I said earlier, evolution has no position on the soul, so you’re just jumbling up different issues.

The human race today has quite a bit of diversity. There are different skin colors, different facial structures and so forth. How did all the types of people we have living today descend from Adam and Eve if not by random mutation?

I don’t believe that Adam and Eve were literal people, but I put that to you as a thought experiment.

Can you tell me where divine mythology or story ends and real history begins in Genesis?

 

[Job 33:6]

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

The Bible just isn't a literal scientific text, it's irrational to suggest that it is with respect to the interpretation of Yom. Here's a video indicating some of the issues with scientific biblical literalism.

The ancient Israelites, they didn't view the cosmos as we do today. It's reasonable to take their cosmological view at a modern 21st century scientific face value, lest we believe in a solid dome in the sky just the same:

 

[Dale]

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

RJS, hello, since I don’t think I’ve met you before. Thanks for your interest in my thread.

RJS: “Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day.”

Literalists are only literal when they want to be literal. By focusing on days you may be focusing on the least important part of the story.

In Genesis 1:3-5, God creates light, separates the light from the darkness, and so creates day and night.

Over ten verses later, God creates the “two great lights,” the sun and the moon. How can you have days when the sun hasn’t been created yet? This is a very clear sign that the “days” in the first chapter of Genesis are not literal.


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light
from the darkness.
God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called
“night”. And there was evening, and there was morning —
the first day.
Genesis 1:3-5 NIV

God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the
day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the
stars.
God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the
earth,
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from
darkness. And God saw that it was good.
And there was evening, and there was morning — the fourth
day.
Genesis 1: 16-19 NIV

 

[Dale]

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

RJS: “Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day.”

A prayer of Moses the man of God.
1 Lord, you have been our dwelling place
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
--Psalm 90: 1-4 NIV

This psalm, attributed to Moses, tells us plainly that a thousand years to God is no more than a day is to us. God has always existed and He views time from a completely different perspective. The psalmist was familiar with thousands. If he had been familiar with millions or billions, he might have used millions or billions. The same passage reminds us that God “brought forth the whole world.” This reasoning does apply to the process of creation and the creation story.

 

[Dale]

Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day. And if you look closely at Genesis 1:20 it does not say the animals came FROM the sea. It says Gode created creatures in the water and birds in the sky.

This in itself contradict evolution which states creatures came from the sea to land and then later evolved to the sky.

Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.

RJS: “Genesis says birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures and AFTER they were created he made the land animals.”


There are actually two creation stories in Genesis. The second one starts in Genesis 2:4. What you said is accurate for the first creation story but the second creation story says something different.

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the
beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought
them to the man to see what he would name them; and
whatever the man called each living creature, that was its
name.
Genesis 2:19

In the second creation story, animals and birds are created at the same time.

Actually, I don’t believe the order of events is as important as you think. The key point is that God created. Years ago I talked to a creationist who was disturbed because Genesis doesn’t say anything about God creating undersea plants. I got the impression he was trying to figure out if undersea plants were created by the devil or something. This is putting far too much emphasis on the details. The point is that God created.

 

[Dale]

Can you tell me where divine mythology or story ends and real history begins in Genesis?

RJS: “Can you tell me where divine mythology or story ends and real history begins in Genesis?”

I do not call the creation stories “mythology.” I do call them parables, they are teaching stories. God did not give Adam two wives and He did not give Eve two husbands. I don’t think that is a coincidence.

As to where “real history” begins, there is no simple answer. Bible, and the Old Testament in particular, is not a history text. In the same way, the Bible is not a textbook of geography or science.

 

[rjs330]

RJS: “Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day.”

A prayer of Moses the man of God.
1 Lord, you have been our dwelling place
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
--Psalm 90: 1-4 NIV

This psalm, attributed to Moses, tells us plainly that a thousand years to God is no more than a day is to us. God has always existed and He views time from a completely different perspective. The psalmist was familiar with thousands. If he had been familiar with millions or billions, he might have used millions or billions. The same passage reminds us that God “brought forth the whole world.” This reasoning does apply to the process of creation and the creation story.

Yes I know that is a possibility. However Genesis doesn't just say "a day". There are further qualifiers. Genesis says morning and evening which is a specific reference to a period of recognized time to the readers. Also in Exodus gif himself clarifies the time for the Israelites.

ד “Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God.You have six days to labor and do all your work,but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.For in six days, Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. This is why Adonai blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for himself. - Exodus 20:8-11 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:8-11 - Complete Jewish Bible

The combination of these verses leads to the belief it was six days not 6 thousand years.

 

[rjs330]

RJS: “Well actually the bible does say how long. It says the evening and the morning was a day.”

A prayer of Moses the man of God.
1 Lord, you have been our dwelling place
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
--Psalm 90: 1-4 NIV

This psalm, attributed to Moses, tells us plainly that a thousand years to God is no more than a day is to us. God has always existed and He views time from a completely different perspective. The psalmist was familiar with thousands. If he had been familiar with millions or billions, he might have used millions or billions. The same passage reminds us that God “brought forth the whole world.” This reasoning does apply to the process of creation and the creation story.

Yes I know that is a possibility. However Genesis doesn't just say "a day". There are further qualifiers. Genesis says morning and evening which is a specific reference to a period of recognized time to the readers. Also in Exodus gif himself clarifies the time for the Israelites.

ד “Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God.You have six days to labor and do all your work,but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.For in six days, Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. This is why Adonai blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for himself. - Exodus 20:8-11 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:8-11 - Complete Jewish Bible

The combination of these verses leads to the belief it was six days not 6 thousand years.

 

[rjs330]

RJS: “Can you tell me where divine mythology or story ends and real history begins in Genesis?”

I do not call the creation stories “mythology.” I do call them parables, they are teaching stories. God did not give Adam two wives and He did not give Eve two husbands. I don’t think that is a coincidence.

As to where “real history” begins, there is no simple answer. Bible, and the Old Testament in particular, is not a history text. In the same way, the Bible is not a textbook of geography or science.

I understand what you are saying. Is there anything in Genesis that is history?