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Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.
YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:
[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
NOR HERE:
[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
NOR HERE:
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
Tell me, Where do you find the scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?
Friend, again, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 IS the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.
Here one more that should hammer this fact home to any honest Bible expositor:
AFTER David's Defeat of Saul, He described the battle this way:
2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?
Bowing the heavens, starting fires with his nostrils, shooting arrows, actually seen riding on Clouds and Cherubs, shaking the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare!
Is it your position that these things LITERALLY happened during that Battle, exactly as David said they did?
I hope not.. I hope you would understand this is How the prophets describe the fall of nations, kings and kingdoms..
Again we have no instruction to take this same language when we find it in the NT and apply a POLAR OPPOSITE interpretation, yet apparently this is exactly what you are doing.
As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
If you live by sight and by your flesh, sure.
It fits Scripture and it fits reality.I will take your avoidance as an admission that your doctrine does not fit reality or Scripture.
You still haven't answered my question.
It fits Scripture and it fits reality.
You are just mistaken by thinking that the visible material world is the reality Bible talks about. Which itself is antibiblical.
You can reject whatever you want.I reject Full Preterism and Gnosticism as heresy.
This does not say what you are saying. God has revealed His power to all nations is completely different from every eye seeing His future return. You have nothing to support your theory.
I actually asked you first: "And when exactly did/do you think the "O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies"?"
You replied to my question with a question, namely: "When do you believe it occurred, and what scripture do you use to support that belief?"
So: And when exactly did/do you think the "O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies"?
Things must be going really well in the Czech Republic. Let's move thereYou are living in denial. That is not a good place to live. Look around you and you will see the evidence of corruption. Look at a photograph from 10 years ago and then look in the mirror and you you will see the evidence of corruption. Read a newspaper or turn on your television and you will see the evidence that we are still in an evil age.
It is heresy to believe there is no physical resurrection of the body (the 2nd resurrection) and no physical return of Christ (the 2nd coming).
What Christian theological belief does not believe in a physical resurrection of the body and the physical return of Christ?
Full preterism believes that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.
Full Preterists do not believe in a future resurrection of the body and second coming of Christ to judge the living and dead and reign forever in the new earth and new heaven. If you think they believe these things, then:Right, but you said it is heresy to not believe in a resurrection or 2nd coming. Full preterists believe in a 2nd coming and resurrection, even as you just stated. So What Christian theology believes in no 2nd coming or future resurrection.
How did this happen?Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
I'll take your avoidance on actually addressing why parousia's understanding of scripture is wrong as an admission that your doctrine does not fit reality or scripture.
You did not address David seeing God riding on cherub
2 samuel 22:11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
You did not address Zechariah 9, where Yahweh is seen over the nations.
and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them,
You did not address why eyes seeing Jesus descend in the NT should be different than eyes seeing Yahweh descend in the OT.
You didn't make a point about matthew 24:30 in post 223, so I don't know.
Preterists believe Matthew 24:15-28 took place from 66-70Ad. Preterists believe Matthew 24:29 occurred immediately after the events of verses 15-28, as stated by scripture.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Not only does that place Isaiah 13:10 after what took place in 66-70 AD, it also places the coming in verse 30 after what took place in 66-70 AD, therefore making it illogical to apply the coming in verse 30 to that of what took place in 66-70 AD instead of after 66-70 AD like the text plainly tells us .
Full Preterists do not believe in a future resurrection of the body and second coming of Christ to judge the living and dead and reign forever in the new earth and new heaven. If you think they believe these things, then:
When is the 2nd coming in your estimation?
When is the physical resurrection of the just and the unjust?
How did this happen?
This is fine with me. I agree.Just like it happened during Babylon's destruction by the Medes.
How could it be a parousia passage when it was in the old testament?
your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 forces you to override the first and second advents and leads you to misunderstand a lot of Scripture.
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