• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why Christianity and Not Judaism?

  • Thread starter Question.Everything
  • Start date
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
Has every Christian here genuinely researched why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah? I find their reasons to be legitimate (mainly that he didn't fulfill the OT prophecies that were promised).

Add to that all the tampering and contradictions found in the Gospels, and it makes perfect sense that Jesus was just an icon used to push a new religion onto people. The history of the NT seems much more political, which flows perfectly with history.

Why are you a Christian and not a Jew?
 

zaksmummy

Senior Member
Jul 6, 2007
2,198
196
Chesterfield
✟18,366.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I have done some research on why Jews dont believe in Jesus and its because he doesnt seem to fulfil the prophecies regarding the eternal peace that will happen in the world to come. Swords into ploughs etc.

However there are quite a few prophecies that he does fulfil, Isaiah 53 is a classic example, but modern Jews have reinterpreted it so that it speaks of them as a people rather than the Messiah, although Rabbis during the 2nd temple period, (when Jesus lived) believed that it was speaking of the Messiah.

Also they look as him as a "cursed one", from a passage in the bible that speaks of people who are hung on trees as being cursed by God - therefore he cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah isnt cursed.

Also Christians tell Jews that they can give up their Torah observance when they become Christians, but the Torah says that a false prophet is one who leads you away from Torah, and they would rather remain loyal to God than turn away from the commandments he gave them.

The problem many Jews have is not so much with Jesus, but rather his followers. The church has historically forced conversion and/or death on Jews who refused to believe - doesnt exactly make them want to trust Christians does it?

So it isnt one thing that lead Jews to be wary of Christians, its many things.

From my icon you can see that Im Messianic - in that although I am a Christian I worship God in a Jewish way and have learned about the Torah and keep the commandments as I am able. I have looked at the claims of Jews that Jesus isnt who he says he is, but my experience of Jesus shows me otherwise.

He says "Who do you think that I am?" and he has proven himself to me, time after time, so my answer has to be the same as his disciples, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God"
 
  • Like
Reactions: razeontherock
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am quite familiar with Judaism, the Promises, which Christ fulfilled, which He did not, and why. This familiarity is not the reason I follow Christ rather than Moses.

He has shown Himself to me, which is in fact the New Covenant, available to "whosoever will ..."

It is a better Covenant, with better promises, and a changing of the Priesthood. Yet the most detailed look into this we can get, is via Moses.
 
Upvote 0

CryptoLutheran

Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
Sep 13, 2010
3,015
391
Pacific Northwest
✟27,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Has every Christian here genuinely researched why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah? I find their reasons to be legitimate (mainly that he didn't fulfill the OT prophecies that were promised).

A point of difference in interpretation, as well as a very different messiology; a key component in Christian thought is that Jesus' messiahship was/is very different than what was expected.

Add to that all the tampering and contradictions found in the Gospels,

Apart from the standard changes that happen to texts over many years, the Gospels do not show much signs of tampering. That is to say, there is nothing to indicate that the Canonical Gospels are substantially or essentially different in their basic content than as originally written. To put it more concise, apart from certain significant key cases (e.g. the pericope de adultera, the traditional ending of Mark) and a few minor cases here and there the manuscript witness seems to indicate a fairly preserved textual tradition and the large number of manuscripts, some dating back to the 2nd century, offers scholars an opportunity in textual criticism something not always common in many other ancient texts.

and it makes perfect sense that Jesus was just an icon used to push a new religion onto people. The history of the NT seems much more political, which flows perfectly with history.

Who did the pushing? And what politics motivated the NT? I agree the New Testament uses intentionally subversive political language, but I'm suspecting you may be implying the old Constantine conspiracy angle.

Why are you a Christian and not a Jew?

Because I want to follow Jesus of Nazareth, who I confess to be Lord and Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

salida

Veteran
Jun 14, 2006
4,305
278
✟6,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Has every Christian here genuinely researched why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah? I find their reasons to be legitimate (mainly that he didn't fulfill the OT prophecies that were promised).

Add to that all the tampering and contradictions found in the Gospels, and it makes perfect sense that Jesus was just an icon used to push a new religion onto people. The history of the NT seems much more political, which flows perfectly with history.

Why are you a Christian and not a Jew?

You make these bold claims that arn't true and I see no sources with them. Show me your supposed contradictions.

Prophecies have been fulfilled but not all because they all haven't come to pass yet. I suggest you start reading these sources.

Jesus fulfilled prophesies
http://brittgillette.com/WordPress/?page_id=21
http://100prophecies.org/
http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm
 
 
****(science based website)
http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible

If your here to just argue I'm not interested; but if your interested in finding out the truth of the matter I will discuss.
 
Upvote 0

salida

Veteran
Jun 14, 2006
4,305
278
✟6,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Has every Christian here genuinely researched why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah? I find their reasons to be legitimate (mainly that he didn't fulfill the OT prophecies that were promised).

Add to that all the tampering and contradictions found in the Gospels, and it makes perfect sense that Jesus was just an icon used to push a new religion onto people. The history of the NT seems much more political, which flows perfectly with history.

Why are you a Christian and not a Jew?

Also, research messianic jews-jews that have become christians. Plus, there is a Jews for Jesus source.
 
Upvote 0
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
However there are quite a few prophecies that he does fulfil

The key thing with this is - prophecies are only fulfilled when they are "fully" filled. Jesus had many prophecies that God himself said he would deliver. Failure to deliver just 1 of these prophecies leaves the covenant as a whole, unfulfilled.

So I do understand why Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He did not do all that was promised.
 
  • Like
Reactions: xDenax
Upvote 0
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
I am quite familiar with Judaism, the Promises, which Christ fulfilled, which He did not, and why. This familiarity is not the reason I follow Christ rather than Moses.

He has shown Himself to me, which is in fact the New Covenant, available to "whosoever will ..."

It is a better Covenant, with better promises, and a changing of the Priesthood. Yet the most detailed look into this we can get, is via Moses.

I think it's pretty simple :

1) God literally speaks to Moses and writes the Old Testament, and all knowingly lists the prophecies his Messiah will fulfill.

2) Jesus does not fulfill all prophecies that God himself said would happen.

3) Jesus is not the Messiah.

Why would God go back on his original word and create a "better" covenant? That implies error on his side, which isn't possible for someone perfect.
 
Upvote 0

Incariol

Newbie
Apr 22, 2011
5,710
251
✟7,523.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The key thing with this is - prophecies are only fulfilled when they are "fully" filled. Jesus had many prophecies that God himself said he would deliver. Failure to deliver just 1 of these prophecies leaves the covenant as a whole, unfulfilled.

So I do understand why Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He did not do all that was promised.

Your logic doesn't make any sense. You assume a prophecy wasn't fulfilled just because the entirety of the Judaism didn't embrace him?
 
Upvote 0
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
A point of difference in interpretation, as well as a very different messiology; a key component in Christian thought is that Jesus' messiahship was/is very different than what was expected.

And therein lies the problem. God spoke to the Jews and told them what to expect, why would he "change it up" on them?

Apart from the standard changes that happen to texts over many years, the Gospels do not show much signs of tampering. That is to say, there is nothing to indicate that the Canonical Gospels are substantially or essentially different in their basic content than as originally written. To put it more concise, apart from certain significant key cases (e.g. the pericope de adultera, the traditional ending of Mark) and a few minor cases here and there the manuscript witness seems to indicate a fairly preserved textual tradition and the large number of manuscripts, some dating back to the 2nd century, offers scholars an opportunity in textual criticism something not always common in many other ancient texts.

To a believer, "standard changes", "key cases", and "minor cases" may be something to shrug off and say "eh, it happens." To someone truly putting the Bible under a microscope and questioning God, these things all make the difference.

You would think that in a testament completely centered around one event, the resurrection, that the accounts of it would at least match. We don't find that to be the case, which really makes one lift an eyebrow.

Who did the pushing? And what politics motivated the NT? I agree the New Testament uses intentionally subversive political language, but I'm suspecting you may be implying the old Constantine conspiracy angle.

I wouldn't quite call it a conspiracy, and even if so - conspiracies do happen. I don't know every facet of Christian history but it does seem Constantine would be politically motivated to spread Christianity.

By "politically motivated" I'm also referring to the simple idea of spreading a religion. Why is any religion created and spread? Religion and politics are always lumped together because they are in a way one in the same. They're both based on written law, personal beliefs, campaigning, and are the subject of extreme conflict and argument. The writers of the gospels were politically motivated to spread their religion, simple as that. I can't go into the minds of Matthew or Mark and know exactly what pushed them to write what they did, but it's fairly easy to believe that they did what they did to push their own agenda in spreading their ideology.

Because I want to follow Jesus of Nazareth, who I confess to be Lord and Christ.

But the Old Testament contradicts with this sentiment. Do you acknowledge that Christ did not fulfill every prophecy God stated he would?
 
Upvote 0
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
Your logic doesn't make any sense. You assume a prophecy wasn't fulfilled just because the entirety of the Judaism didn't embrace him?

No. A prophecy wasn't fulfilled because God said his Messiah would do A, B, and C. Jesus lived and died and did not complete A, B, and C. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah.
 
Upvote 0
Q

Question.Everything

Guest
Prophecies have been fulfilled but not all because they all haven't come to pass yet. I suggest you start reading these sources.

Seeing as Jesus has been dead for 2,000 years, I don't think he'll be fulfilling any more prophecies. God said his Messiah would establish an era of complete peace and non-violence. Clearly that never happened, and we're rapidly charging in the opposite direction.

Even if tomorrow we did establish an era of total peace (and things "came to pass"), it wouldn't be the result of Jesus as Jesus isn't alive any more. It'd be the result of whatever political leaders do to make this happen.

Jesus didn't do what God said his Messiah would do, it's really as simple as that.
 
Upvote 0

AlexBP

Newbie
Apr 20, 2010
2,063
104
42
Virginia
✟17,840.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
No. A prophecy wasn't fulfilled because God said his Messiah would do A, B, and C. Jesus lived and died and did not complete A, B, and C. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah.
I think untangling the prophecies is quite a difficult matter since many of them are written figuratively, many are ambiguous, in many cases there's doubt as to whether they are actually are messianic prophecies, and--for those who don't believe in Biblical inerrancy--there's doubt as to whether God actually wrote or inspired them.

A more fruitful approach, in my view, is to consider how God historical interacted with Israel through the Old Testament period, as recorded both throughout the Bible and by secular history and archaeology. God interacted with Israel by (1) the Temple, a specific building on earth in which God was present, (2) the Levitical Priesthood, a specific group among the Jews charged with being God's priests, (3) the Prophets, specific individuals among the Jews who delivered spoken messages from God, (4) the sacrifices, actions by which the Jews received atonement for their sins, and (5) the Kingship, which guaranteed that God's chosen, a descendant of David, would rule Israel.

Now all these things were definitely present in Old Testament times up to the First Century. Then in the first century, the Temple was destroyed, the Levitical Priesthood was ended, prophecy ceased among the Jews, the sacrifices were ended, and the Kingship was ended. None of these things have ever come back among the Jewish nation.

So, if I had been raised Jewish, I would ask myself whether there was something major that happened in the first century that changed God's relationship with the Jews and possibly humanity at large. In particular, I'd look for something that (1) replaced the Temple (2) offered a new High Priest and a new priesthood under him (3) offered a new type of prophecy (4) offered atonement for sins in a new manner, and (5) offered a new King.
 
Upvote 0

CryptoLutheran

Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
Sep 13, 2010
3,015
391
Pacific Northwest
✟27,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And therein lies the problem. God spoke to the Jews and told them what to expect, why would he "change it up" on them?

Keep in mind that the earliest Christians and Christian communities were primarily composed of Jews and understood themselves largely as Jewish in character--even when Gentiles started being added among their numbers.

It's not that God "changed it up", it's that there was--and still is--legitimate differences in interpretation of messianic expectation and messianic prophecy between Judaism and Christianity and these differences are in part one of the fundamental issues that led to a breech between the mainstream Jewish community and the fledgling Christian sect.

To a believer, "standard changes", "key cases", and "minor cases" may be something to shrug off and say "eh, it happens." To someone truly putting the Bible under a microscope and questioning God, these things all make the difference.

You would think that in a testament completely centered around one event, the resurrection, that the accounts of it would at least match. We don't find that to be the case, which really makes one lift an eyebrow.

The issue isn't to what degree the biblical texts are scrutinized, both believers and non-believers can scrutinize the text down to the nitty gritty, what makes a significant difference between the two is faith. Those textual discrepencies don't obliterate a Christian's faith because, at the end of the day, the essence of Christianity isn't the textual perfection of the Bible, but the centrality of the Jesus Event in the lives and faith of this living, breathing community called the Church.

I wouldn't quite call it a conspiracy, and even if so - conspiracies do happen. I don't know every facet of Christian history but it does seem Constantine would be politically motivated to spread Christianity.

He was politically motivated to use Christianity to unify the Empire. I have little doubt that his move to favor Christianity did have political motivations (whether or not he had true religious conviction isn't something I can say one way or another, that's between him and his Maker). However, it's excruciatingly important to point out that Constantine himself, apart from being the one to lead the move to pass the Edict of Toleration, and his active role in promoting Christianity as a favorable religion he did little to impact the substance of Christianity.

To offer an example of this: It's true that Constantine summoned the bishops to Nicea for a council to try and settle the Arian Controversy; but it wasn't the last council he summoned and ultimately Constantine had the Nicene-confessing bishops removed from their episcopal sees and saw Arius in favorable light; largely due to the influence of two close friends and court advisors, one of whom was an Arian sympathizer (Eusebius of Caesarea, the one who wrote the Church History and Life of Constantine) and one a devoted Arian and friend of Arius (Eusebius of Nicomedia, who baptized Constantine on his deathbed). Constantine's successors were often split, theologically, between the Nicene and Arian confessions, and these continued to wane back and forth until Emperor Julian, the last of Constantine's line, came to power and sought to restore and reinvigorate the old religion.

It wasn't until Theodosius I became emperor that Christianity, as articulated at Nicea and Constantinople became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

And while Nicene Christianity became the religion de juref of Rome in 391, Constantine's role was, while significant, not part of some radical restructuring of the theology of Christianity as most practiced it. Both sides in the theological debate saw themselves as heirs of what Christianity had practiced in the pre-Constantine era, most of the bishops who met at Nicea had lived and suffered through the reign of Diocletian and came to Nicea with the physical scars to prove it.

Many give entirely more credit to Constantine than he deserves.

By "politically motivated" I'm also referring to the simple idea of spreading a religion. Why is any religion created and spread? Religion and politics are always lumped together because they are in a way one in the same. They're both based on written law, personal beliefs, campaigning, and are the subject of extreme conflict and argument. The writers of the gospels were politically motivated to spread their religion, simple as that. I can't go into the minds of Matthew or Mark and know exactly what pushed them to write what they did, but it's fairly easy to believe that they did what they did to push their own agenda in spreading their ideology.

Of course the Gospels were written to spread the agenda of the Evangelists, that's in the very nature of gospel as a literary genera.

However, long before imperial politics became intertwined with Christianity (something I regard as the single worst thing to happen in the history of the Christian Church) Christianity had already spread quite abroad, not just within the Roman Empire as far as Britain, but had spread outside of Rome. Christian communities existed as far as Ethiopia, India and China, without any aid from Roman political power.

But the Old Testament contradicts with this sentiment. Do you acknowledge that Christ did not fulfill every prophecy God stated he would?

I believe Jesus fulfilled what needed to be fulfilled when He walked the dusty rodes of Judea. I agree with the early Christians who saw messianic fulfillment coming to fruition in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

zaksmummy

Senior Member
Jul 6, 2007
2,198
196
Chesterfield
✟18,366.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
No. A prophecy wasn't fulfilled because God said his Messiah would do A, B, and C. Jesus lived and died and did not complete A, B, and C. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah.

Jesus rose from the dead, and is alive now and the end of the world has not yet arrived, therefore he still has time to complete his task.

If you think that this is not the case, look at some of the OT prophecies, so of them have not yet come to pass, yet the men who spoke them are still regarded as prophets because although we cannot see how their prophecies will be fulfilled, we (Jews and Christians) still believe that they will be fulfilled in the fullness of time.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think it's pretty simple :

1) God literally speaks to Moses and writes the Old Testament

Only the 10 commandments were "written with the finger of God." You are subjecting yourself to a false notion with your statement here.

Why would God go back on his original word and create a "better" covenant? That implies error on his side, which isn't possible for someone perfect.

From the very beginning, G-d Promises this better Covenant. He repeats it throughout the OT, adding clarity here and there. You need to question these things much further, as there is much that you have not yet discovered.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You would think that in a testament completely centered around one event, the resurrection, that the accounts of it would at least match. We don't find that to be the case, which really makes one lift an eyebrow.

Actually the exact opposite is true. Tests designed to determine human nature have shown no 2 people will perceive the same thing the same way, nor will there observations match, even re: the simplest of things. EVERY TIME.

Further, if this were phony, corrections after the fact would have been made for the very purpose of silencing your obvious critique. Instead, the diversity, preserved as faithfully as possible, gives us tremendous insight.

You should be questioning how to obtain said insight.

Do you acknowledge that Christ did not fulfill every prophecy God stated he would?

Yet. Prophecy is spoken from the POV of Eternity; we are subject to time. The big difference, is Jews do not recognize this.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,044
9,489
✟421,438.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I've looked into that, but Jewish objections can't stand up to the truth about Jesus. In my personal faith journey, my prayers to reboot my religion centered on Jesus; if God or whoever else knew it was false and cared about what I believed in, it would be made known to me and I was going to try something else. But more objectively than that, Jews just don't have a good enough answer for dealing with Jesus - the historical evidence shows he was raised from the dead, the spiritual evidence shows that when Jesus did his ministry work, that the people worshiped Jehovah rather than a false god (i.e. in Matthew 15:31). That and well, Jewish alternate explanations (there is no one, official explanation) for Isaiah 53 just don't hold water.
 
Upvote 0