Why China will continue supporting North Korea (a Chinese perspective)

[TheQuietRiot]

China is a poverty stricken 3rd world country

Japan takes the chinese military as serious as North Korea. Both are stoneage countries. Numbers of soldiers are irrelevant in a 21st century conflict. Wars aren´t fought with soldiers. So please stop those funny comments.

China is a new rising superpower, it's funny that you keep reffering to them as a 3rd world country. Of course there are parts that are in desperate poverty but there is also many insanely wealthy people and a emerging middle class.

And it's clearly not just manpower they have you crushed on. They have way more tanks, planes and ships but you don't seem to want to admit that.

And if you don't like my comments then don't reply.

 

[AkiraYamato]

lol their tanks and ships and planes are outdated and old technolgy. Japan is the most advanced nation worldwide in technology. Quality always wins over quantity. China is in large parts on the level of Kenya. They are also not a super power. Chinese don´t know how to make war. Their army was beaten in evry single conflict in the last 2000 years.

To bring it short for you: a war between China and Japan would be like a war between a primitive stoneage culture and a war between an advanced space faring civilisation.

I think we could start a full automated war against them. We lead in robotics and artificial intelligence.

We also talk about a country that build the yangtze dam...a target that allows Japan to reduce Chinas population and power by one third with a single rocket hit.

 

[I Eat Pie]

Lol. Let's see that same talk when China starts bugging Japanese people in international waters >.>

 

[AkiraYamato]

Lol. Let's see that same talk when China starts bugging Japanese people in international waters >.>

Last time China tried that our coast guard crashed their ships:

Our technology is lightyears ahead of chinese stuff...

 

[I Eat Pie]

lolz

 

[RDKirk]

Militarily, North Korea is very worrisome for Seoul--and I specifically mean the city itself, not the South Korean government as a whole. North Korea's overall military is hollow: We have DPRK "armored divisions" on the books where in reality not a single vehicle has been seen in literally four decades.

Sorry, you can't hide a true invasion capability that well for that long--you have to exercise it or it's effectively not there. Even if you have a thousand hidden tanks swaddled in Cosmoline and a million people on draft rolls, if you haven't had had suffcient exercises in over a generation, you don't have an invasion capability...you have a goatrope capability.

Especially not against the ROKs, who are well-prepared and tough as nails. A DPRK attack on the south will be short and brutal upon Seoul itself, but otherwise, the ROKs will mop it up, and most likely it will be suicidal for the DPRK government. This is without US assistance; however, US troops are there as a tripwire guarantee that the US will instantly assist.

The DPRK is not really a threat to anyone else.

China versus Japan: China is too vast in all dimensions. To be sure, Japan has the technological edge, but China has more airplanes to lose than Japan has missiles to fire at them. Japan has no nuclear weapons, China has enough to saturate Japan easily even if half of them fail (btw, even if a nuclear missile fails and falls to earth, that won't detonate the weapon--you just have an acre or two that nobody wants to live near).

A China/Japan war would be similar to a Russia/Germany war. In an all-out war, China would eventually prevail, unless the US backs Japan with nuclear weapons. That's what will prevent a China-Japan war.

 

[Kurama]

Ok how on earth did this thread turn into China vs Japan!?

Ummmm China-Japan BFF? Please, no more blind nationalism and hate! We are one blood...

(You're probably not going to meet a more ''pro-Japanese'' Chinese like me...in China, everyone despises Japan and I am discriminated for being too tolerant to the ''enemy'')

 

[AkiraYamato]

Japan can produce 700 nuclear war heads within a few months. And if a crisis rises we have enough time to build them. Its what your country calls teh "Japan option" or being one screw driver away from the nuke.

Nuclear latency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And to be honest, does anyone here think we would be scared of China? ha ha why should we?

 

[Kurama]

Japan can produce 700 nuclear war heads within a few months. And if a crisis rises we have enough time to build them. Its what your country calls teh "Japan option" or being one screw driver away from the nuke.

Nuclear latency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And to be honest, does anyone here think we would be scared of China? ha ha why should we?

Say no to nukes, say yes to peace

Most Japanese are against nuclear energy, not to mention nuclear weapons. They want to live using renewable energy. I hope that the superior Japanese technology is used for peaceful reasons.

 

[AkiraYamato]

Im for peace too. But in danger i have no problem with using all what we have to secure Japan. I don't want war.

 

[mindlight]

Ok how on earth did this thread turn into China vs Japan!?

Ummmm China-Japan BFF? Please, no more blind nationalism and hate! We are one blood...

(You're probably not going to meet a more ''pro-Japanese'' Chinese like me...in China, everyone despises Japan and I am discriminated for being too tolerant to the ''enemy'')

Most Japanese people I know are far more moderate in their expression than AkiraYamato and would be shocked by the more extreme positions that he holds and his own government is far more careful in its words. But there does seem to be intense passions in both Japan and in China which are rooted in the last war and have not been properly resolved.

The way in which China has tended to regard Korea and indeed Japan as tributaries to which it has an historical right of supremacy is a key issue here. American presence in South Korea and in Japan directly confronts these historical assumptions on the part of China but as China grows stronger and the US weaker in the region the balance of power is going to change and Chinas true heart will be revealed. The ugliness of Akira Yamatos reaction mirrors the more serious racism and ambition which Chinas growing economic power will automatically empower as time passes,

 

[AkiraYamato]

Most Japanese people I know are far more moderate in their expression than AkiraYamato and would be shocked by the more extreme positions that he holds and his own government is far more careful in its words. But there does seem to be intense passions in both Japan and in China which are rooted in the last war and have not been properly resolved.

The way in which China has tended to regard Korea and indeed Japan as tributaries to which it has an historical right of supremacy is a key issue here. American presence in South Korea and in Japan directly confronts these historical assumptions on the part of China but as China grows stronger and the US weaker in the region the balance of power is going to change and Chinas true heart will be revealed. The ugliness of Akira Yamatos reaction mirrors the more serious racism and ambition which Chinas growing economic power will automatically empower as time passes,

you have no kmowledge about asian history and diplomacy. we regard china as tributary.

 

[Foamhead]

What about the rape of Falluja? Or the rape of Dresden or the rape of entire vietnam. What about Nanking?. It was war. China did worse to its own people. They killed almost one million with the bombings of their own dams. Nanking is small compared to that.

And guess what? Those were wrong and evil as well.

 

[Kurama]

Hmmmm we're always talking abotu China vs Japan/USA...but I think we've forgot a major player: Russia. The Russians have always been enemies with Japan, they still have territory disputes with them. I believe that Russia would be allied with China if America decided to help Japan in war.

China is a new rising superpower, it's funny that you keep reffering to them as a 3rd world country. Of course there are parts that are in desperate poverty but there is also many insanely wealthy people and a emerging middle class.

And it's clearly not just manpower they have you crushed on. They have way more tanks, planes and ships but you don't seem to want to admit that.

And if you don't like my comments then don't reply.

The Soviet Union had many poverty striken areas, most of its non-Russian republics were subject to starvation. That did not undermine its military threat to the United States.

China are spending more money on the military than Japan. History teaches us that quantity is a quality in its own right. The German-Soviet War, Iran-Iraq War, Franco-Russian War...are all examples that a better quality military does not equate to victory. Japan would surely win a sea battle against China, but a land invasion, even with the help of the United States, would be impossible. The Chinese army isn't the main threat, it's the People's Armed Militia (the largest military force in the world; basically the whole Chinese population with guns).

you have no kmowledge about asian history and diplomacy. we regard china as tributary.

Hmmm...I thought Asian history teaches us that it was the other way round. In history Japan was divided into several separate states, while China was more-or-less a continuous empire. The Japanese state of Wa was a tributary to China for a long time. Japan was then tribute to the Sui, Tang and Ming Dynasties. China was never a tributary of Japan, it was never conquered by Japan. The only countries that conquered China were Mongolia and Manchuria (and now parts of Manchuria and Mongolia are ironically part of China).

It's foolish to say that you view China as a tributary. The only time Japan had actually any power on China was during WW2 when the Japanese had taken over the eastern coast of China. However of course the Chinese eventually pushed the Japanese out (though unlike the Soviets, we did not seek vengence against your country, we were too busy fighting a civil war).

Anyway this question has always intrigued me...Akira, what would Japan have done to the Chinese people if it had won WW2? Japanese victory, especially in China and Indochina, was definitely possible if it wasn't for the Bombing of Pearl Harbour and thus American intervention. The Chinese were so weak and poor, without American aid we would have lost (thanks guys, sorry about the Korean War, just wished our two countries shared the same close friendship as we did during the war ).

The Japanese believed that they were liberating the Chinese....however that is what the Germans said to the Soviets, what the Italians said to the Yugoslavs,what the Iraqis said to the Iranians, what the Americans said to the Hawaiians....it's all excuses isn't it? What was Japan really going to do to China?

I'm not a Chinese nationalist, nor do I even support China against Japan. I think something about being a Christian teaches me that I should embrace the Japanese as my brothers, especially since God created us to look so similar

 

[AkiraYamato]

Japan was never under chinese power. You don't understand history. Japan did send China gifts, China saw it as tribute. China did send Japan gifts. Japan saw it as tribute. Same about Korea. Korea did send a delegation to Japan and called it inspection. Japan called it tribute delegation. Never a single chinese soldier set a foot on japanese land in all our history.

And you ask what we would have done? China would have been better than today. If Japan would rule China there would never have been a Mao in power. The "cultural revolution" which destroyed so much, would have never happened. China would be much more prosperous than today. We would rule the world economical. Mao pushed China 50 years backwards.

 

[Kurama]

Japan was never under chinese power. You don't understand history. Japan did send China gifts, China saw it as tribute. China did send Japan gifts. Japan saw it as tribute. Same about Korea. Korea did send a delegation to Japan and called it inspection. Japan called it tribute delegation. Never a single chinese soldier set a foot on japanese land in all our history.

And you ask what we would have done? China would have been better than today. If Japan would rule China there would never have been a Mao in power. The "cultural revolution" which destroyed so much, would have never happened. China would be much more prosperous than today. We would rule the world economical. Mao pushed China 50 years backwards.

Never said that Japan was under Chiense power, only the Americans were able to takeover Japan (those bases and baracks are still full of American soldiers...not exactly something to be proud of). However there were times that Japan did not think itself superior to China, that, as you said, it did exchange gifts between the emperor. Really wished that was the case today...but looks like China and Japan are at each other's throats again....

Yes, but then that's like saying that if the Germans had won against the Soviet Union, Stalin would have never been able to takeover Eastern Europe and subject his people to more persecution. The Germans still despised the Soviets, they despised communism and believed that the Slavs should be the slaves of the Aryan race. Hitler followed the theory of lebensraum, creating more living space for the German people. It was not Russia for the Russians, but Russia for the Germans.

While it is true that Mao seriously messed up China and has caused the United States to become China's enemy, I believe that Japan followed its own lebensraum. Japan was suffering from overpopulation, it lacked resources, it was struggling financialls as a result of the Depression...taking over China was the answer. The Japanese immediately sent sent settlers (or may I say colonists) to China during the war.

Some Chinese say that the Japanese were going to openly exterminate the Chinese...I don't know about that theory but Japan did indeed follow a racial caste system. At the top were the Japanese and Koreans, the Chinese were at the bottom...they were considered the dirtiest and worst race by the Japanese. Although perhaps the theory of genocide is too extreme for this case, I believe the Chinese would always be held under the Japanese as second class citizens (as it had been for Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia...any country Japan managed to takeover).

Just like in the Islamic Caliphates, the Chinese would be like the dhimmi, they would be subject to persecution, higher taxes and segregation. I hardly think China would be a better place under Japan, and I truly believe that the Chinese would have taken up arms and successfuly rebelled against the Japanese (like in the American Revolution hahaha; give me liberty, or give me death!)

 

[AkiraYamato]

That is not true. We planned no genocide. What do you think about us? Genocide is against Shinto. And i don't think china could sucessful rebel.

 

[Kurama]

That is not true. We planned no genocide. What do you think about us? Genocide is against Shinto. And i don't think china could sucessful rebel.

As noted, I don't share the same opinions with other Chinese that the Japanese would commit genocide. However I still think that Japan would subject the Chinese to an inferior status, just like they had done to the Koreans during the colonial period. Not sure what you think, but I believe that all human beings of all religions and races should be treated equally.

History teaches us that all Chinese rebellions against foreigners have ultimately been successful. The Mongols had successfuly ruled China for centuries during the Yuan Dynasty. However the Chinese were able to overthrow the Khan and establish the Mind Dynasty. The Chinese rebelled against the Europeans, Americans and Japanese during the Boxer Rebellion and, even though the rebellion was quelled, the Chinese had showed the foreigners that they were not welcome in China (eventually leading to the closure of concessions). Meanwhile in 1912, Chinese republicans were able to overthrow the Manchu emperor and form a republic.

The Chinese would hate to live under the Tenno, they've been living under emperors for more than 2000 years. I believe that the Chinese would rebel and be successful, or else the Japanese would have to kill them all (not very easy...but as you said genocide is against Shinto). Like in the American War of Independence, I believe the Chinese would eventually push the Japanese out of China.

Data from the Second Sino-Japanese War show that, at most, 900,000 Chinese were collaborating with the Japanese (compromising of the armies of the puppet states of Manchukou and the Nanjing Regime; as well as spies). Out of a population of over 500 million (at the time)...that's a pretty low number.

Verdict: The great majority of Chinese would have rather died than submit to Japan. Likewise probably all Japanese would have willingly fought to the death than submit to the enemy. Let's have some mutual respect here!

 

[Kurama]

And guess what? Those were wrong and evil as well.

Apparently Nanking is considered a conspiracy among many Japanese...though there has also been talk about putting the blame on ethnic Koreans in the Japanese army for ''misconduct''

Trouble is that most Koreans in the Japanese army were already being used as cannon fodder...I don't think any of them survived by Nanking. Hence another reason why Koreans still despise Japan.

 

[Kurama]

Most Japanese people I know are far more moderate in their expression than AkiraYamato and would be shocked by the more extreme positions that he holds and his own government is far more careful in its words. But there does seem to be intense passions in both Japan and in China which are rooted in the last war and have not been properly resolved.

The way in which China has tended to regard Korea and indeed Japan as tributaries to which it has an historical right of supremacy is a key issue here. American presence in South Korea and in Japan directly confronts these historical assumptions on the part of China but as China grows stronger and the US weaker in the region the balance of power is going to change and Chinas true heart will be revealed. The ugliness of Akira Yamatos reaction mirrors the more serious racism and ambition which Chinas growing economic power will automatically empower as time passes,

Japan is just like any other country on earth...it contains nationalists, moderates and liberals. There will be those who vow for political and geographical dominance, while the great majority will simply want to get along in their daily lives with their families.

Personally I have nothing against nationalists, as long as they are not militant (they should be arrested then). Many of my Chinese friends are ardently anti-Japan nationalists who spend a huge amount of their time creating propaganda against the Japanese. During the Senkaku island crisis, there were mass protests in Beijing, Japanese cars and merchandise were smashed.

This form of nationalism is disgusting...both on the Chinese and Japanese side. I just try to stay as neutral as possible...but the fact of the matter is that Japan is democratic and China is not. Ultimately I will affiliate myself more with the Japanese perspective and ideals, though I'm quite put off by insults towards China.

Notwithstanding, a right-wing nationalist party is currently in the Japanese parliament. This has, not only caused concern among the Chinese, but also the South Koreans. The S.Koreans, who were formerly enemies with China, are now trying to get closer to the Chinese. The S.Korean president Park Geun-hae (who can speak Mandarin fluently) has visited China, and has expressed how much she loves Chinese culture. She hopes that China and South Korea can draw closer.

Reminds me of making a thread about the new Chinese-S.Korean relations...