Why can't we sin?

[simonpeter]

Shalom!

This is my first post at the Singles forum, I believe.

Anyway, I hope the title doesn't upset anyone. I am not suggesting one should go around and commit as many sins as one can. Not at all! But since only Jesus is capable of cleansing our hearts, would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

If so, that only leaves us with one solution: let us sin while also believing in Jesus. If we sin without believing, there is no redemption. If, on the other hand, we try not to sin . . . first of all, we won't succeed because sin is too strong for us. Second, it will make us proud enough to believe we can handle sin through our own efforts. That surely wouldn't endear us to God.

Maybe, that's what Martin Luther meant when he said: Be a sinner and sin boldly.

Your thoughts?

Simon

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Shalom, and welcome.

While I'm not entirely certain of the context of ML's quote you provided, I can agree with you that we're all sinners and as sinners we must therefore, as Christians, continue to believe and receive the redemption of the cross Yeshua died upon for us.

Grace and peace be upon you.

 

[Blank123]

Paul would disagree

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. - Romans 6

1In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. - Romans 6

Struggling with sin is one thing, we all do. It doesn't mean its okay to sin though. There's no excuse for a Christian to actively remain in sin. The Bible actually does address the attitude that its okay to remain in sin, and its not something to take lightly.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. - Hebrews 10



so unless we want to be counted as the enemies of God and claim their just punishment, I would say its not a good idea to advocate sin as a good thing.

Certainly we cannot save ourselves, or cleanse ourselves of sin. Thats what Christ's job on the cross was. He freed us of that. Our responsibility as believers now is to submit to the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit as He conforms us to the image of Christ. We need to be walking in holiness, not rebelling against it. Even turning from temptation is a testament, not of our own strength, but of God's working in us.

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. - James 4



14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. - Hebrews 4

 

[Sketcher]

I wouldn't call it a solution. I call it an unfortunate state of the present. If I could completely stop all sorts of sin tomorrow, and have that stick, I'd do it right now. But that is completely and utterly impossible in this life. Of course, the Holy Spirit is more than welcome to prove me wrong on this point (wink wink).

 

[TanteBelle]

Shalom!

This is my first post at the Singles forum, I believe.

Anyway, I hope the title doesn't upset anyone. I am not suggesting one should go around and commit as many sins as one can. Not at all! But since only Jesus is capable of cleansing our hearts, would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

If so, that only leaves us with one solution: let us sin while also believing in Jesus. If we sin without believing, there is no redemption. If, on the other hand, we try not to sin . . . first of all, we won't succeed because sin is too strong for us. Second, it will make us proud enough to believe we can handle sin through our own efforts. That surely wouldn't endear us to God.

Maybe, that's what Martin Luther meant when he said: Be a sinner and sin boldly.

Your thoughts?

Simon

Why can't we sin? If God is the one who created us and gave us commandments to keep, who are we to sin? 'Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.' 'Be holy, for I am holy.' We can't eliminate sin on our own. Conviction of sin comes by revelation from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is there to minister to us and we are obey him. God may be the only one who can cleanse sin from our hearts but there are things that we humans can do to show our zeal for our God. Our emotions and thoughts are far harder to control than our actions. They are very easy to control!

 

[Stravinsk]

Shalom!

This is my first post at the Singles forum, I believe.

Anyway, I hope the title doesn't upset anyone. I am not suggesting one should go around and commit as many sins as one can. Not at all! But since only Jesus is capable of cleansing our hearts, would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

If so, that only leaves us with one solution: let us sin while also believing in Jesus. If we sin without believing, there is no redemption. If, on the other hand, we try not to sin . . . first of all, we won't succeed because sin is too strong for us. Second, it will make us proud enough to believe we can handle sin through our own efforts. That surely wouldn't endear us to God.

Maybe, that's what Martin Luther meant when he said: Be a sinner and sin boldly.

Your thoughts?

Simon

Jesus said that if you resist the Devil he will flee from you. Think about what you are suggesting. It implies no control over your own will. That's not the condition of anyone but the possessed.

Resisting a specific sin and being successful in that resistance doesn't, by default, make you proud. But you can choose to be proud or to make some sort of false judgement about yourself for doing so.

 

[Thunder Peel]

We're never going to be free of sin while on this earth. That doesn't give us a license to sin (007 reference!) freely but it's an unfortunate consequence of the world we live in.

 

[gzt]

What Luther meant is that you can't live your life paralyzed by the thought of sin. Instead you must live boldly, sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. You have to be careful about how you talk about this stuff, because, as has rightly been pointed out, St Paul says that God's grace does not give you a license to sin. Sin is still a grave thing separating us from God and we have to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling". You will never be free from sin, but God will work on you if you let Him.

 

[Ost]

Shalom!

This is my first post at the Singles forum, I believe.

Anyway, I hope the title doesn't upset anyone. I am not suggesting one should go around and commit as many sins as one can. Not at all! But since only Jesus is capable of cleansing our hearts, would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

If so, that only leaves us with one solution: let us sin while also believing in Jesus. If we sin without believing, there is no redemption. If, on the other hand, we try not to sin . . . first of all, we won't succeed because sin is too strong for us. Second, it will make us proud enough to believe we can handle sin through our own efforts. That surely wouldn't endear us to God.

Maybe, that's what Martin Luther meant when he said: Be a sinner and sin boldly.

Your thoughts?

Simon

Don't sin. But if anyone does sin there is an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous one. Albeit if you are part of the saved this is true, since this verse was to Christians.

Anyways Christ took all sin at the Jordan. He paid the wages of all sin on the cross. He was resurrected and granted believers the Holy Spirit. Being a sinner is a bad thing, regardless of popular belief. No one makes it into heaven if they have sin. What they are worshiping then if they have sin is not God but their religious beliefs that they were told and hold onto. People misuse a quote in the bible a lot that says 'if we say we are without sin the truth is not in us' yet the next verse says that if we come to christ we are cleansed completely. Those verses were not to Christians but to those who have not yet been saved. Also ever read the verses on the feet washing? The whole thing was a teaching on sin, yet that will go over peoples heads. Though we mess up in our lives and sin, we are still completely clean because we believe in Christ.

Of course people will say 'oh well you have to ask for forgiveness of sins though'. Actually the bible doesn't say to ask for forgiveness of sins. It says to repent and to confess. Go get a dictionary. Forgiveness comes by belief. John 3:16, Acts 10:43. Not by our pretty words.

*puts on flame suit* heheh

 

[Luther073082]

Shalom!

This is my first post at the Singles forum, I believe.

Anyway, I hope the title doesn't upset anyone. I am not suggesting one should go around and commit as many sins as one can. Not at all! But since only Jesus is capable of cleansing our hearts, would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

If so, that only leaves us with one solution: let us sin while also believing in Jesus. If we sin without believing, there is no redemption. If, on the other hand, we try not to sin . . . first of all, we won't succeed because sin is too strong for us. Second, it will make us proud enough to believe we can handle sin through our own efforts. That surely wouldn't endear us to God.

Maybe, that's what Martin Luther meant when he said: Be a sinner and sin boldly.

Your thoughts?

Simon

Blind Post:

First of all that is a popular misquote of Martin Luther that is taken out of context.

This is the context

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Martin Luther is essentially saying to preachers. . . you need to be open about your sins your REAL SINS and weaknesses. When you are open about your true sins you can preach about the true mercy of Christ.

Now in terms of sinning I'm not sure what you mean. We need to accept that we are sinners and we will continue to sin. But that doesn't mean that we should just go ahead sin without thought. Being reborn into Christ we need to behave as reborn people not just doing whatever we feel like but trying with the help of God to act like one of God's people.

 

[MacFall]

You have to admit that you are a sinner and realize your helplessness to change that before you can receive grace. And if you are saved, realizing that you are still going to fall to sin and that there is yet no condemnation for you might look something like "yep, I'm a sinner; deal with it". It can look sort of blasé, but it's better than being constantly depressed and in self-loathing. It is in that state that we are most vulnerable to the enemy.

If that's what you mean, I'm with you.

 

[Rhamiel]

would it not be arrogant of us to think we could eliminate sin all by ourselves?

not only would we be arrogant, we would be Pelagians
but are we able to avoid sin with the grace of God? well this is a differant question

 

[~Beauty_from_Pain~]

Only Christ can forgive sins.
When we become a Christian, we are washed of all sins-past, present and future.
Nothing can separate us from Him, if we are His child.
If we are His child though, we have the Holy Spirit that I believe, leads us to follow the one we love. Because I love Christ, I desire to follow His commands and to do my best to not sin. If I do sin, I repent and get back up. I think we need to be careful to be sure that the devil doesn't keep us down when we sin. As a born again Christian-we are forgiven already! So we aknowledge it before God (I believe this is for our own benefit, since He already knows what we've done. Sort of like Adam/Eve in the garden when they sinned and God asked where they were/what had they done) and get back up.

 

[simonpeter]

not only would we be arrogant, we would be Pelagians
but are we able to avoid sin with the grace of God? well this is a differant question

If we're able to avoid sin (with or without Grace), that would make us sinless while still living in this cage of flesh. But since flesh and sin go together, that wouldn't be possible. So I believe Grace only saves us from the horrible effect of sin, namely hell, rather than from sin itself.

 

[LoveJC9]

Paul would disagree

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. - Romans 6

1In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. - Romans 6

Struggling with sin is one thing, we all do. It doesn't mean its okay to sin though. There's no excuse for a Christian to actively remain in sin. The Bible actually does address the attitude that its okay to remain in sin, and its not something to take lightly.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. - Hebrews 10



so unless we want to be counted as the enemies of God and claim their just punishment, I would say its not a good idea to advocate sin as a good thing.

Certainly we cannot save ourselves, or cleanse ourselves of sin. Thats what Christ's job on the cross was. He freed us of that. Our responsibility as believers now is to submit to the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit as He conforms us to the image of Christ. We need to be walking in holiness, not rebelling against it. Even turning from temptation is a testament, not of our own strength, but of God's working in us.

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. - James 4



14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. - Hebrews 4

What she said....

 

[Rhamiel]

If we're able to avoid sin (with or without Grace), that would make us sinless while still living in this cage of flesh. But since flesh and sin go together, that wouldn't be possible. So I believe Grace only saves us from the horrible effect of sin, namely hell, rather than from sin itself.

so it is impossible not to sin
and yet God finds us guilty of sin
how can we have real guilt for something we have no choice in doing? it would be like making breathing a crime

 

[MacFall]

so it is impossible not to sin
and yet God finds us guilty of sin
how can we have real guilt for something we have no choice in doing? it would be like making breathing a crime

I agree with that. I don't believe that we are sinful by default, otherwise aborted fetuses and others who do not live long enough to make any rational choices would be damned. What Adam chose for us was the knowledge of good and evil, which means we have no excuse when we sin. But I don't believe that a person becomes a sinner until the first time that he chooses to do something wrong; that is, the first time that he ignores the word of God that is written on his heart to pursue an evil end.

I believe I can remember when that happened to me. My mother told me not to do something, and as I went to do it anyway, I felt the wrongness of my action. That may not have been the first time, but I was pretty young, not quite three years, and if there was a prior instance of willful wrongdoing, I don't remember it. But I'm sure that everyone has had such an experience, whether they remember it or not.

 

[~Beauty_from_Pain~]

If we're able to avoid sin (with or without Grace), that would make us sinless while still living in this cage of flesh. But since flesh and sin go together, that wouldn't be possible. So I believe Grace only saves us from the horrible effect of sin, namely hell, rather than from sin itself.

We can't be "perfect" because only Christ is perfect. So we are sinners. Some sinners are saved, others are not. Those sinners who are saved are called to follow after Christ and to do our best to imitate Him, and to refrain from sin.

As a Christian yes, we are then saved from our sins and so they are not held against us. Yet we are to live in truth while we are here. Not because it saves us or because if we sin we stop receiving grace. It's because Christ wants us to follow Him, and if we are a real Christian, we will be trying to do that.

Not to try and earn salvation. Not because if we mess up God will take His salvation away. But because Christ commands it of us and if we love Him, we will keep His commands.

Not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven. To some He will say, depart from me, for I never knew you.

If it is ok to sin...then why does God speak so strongly against it? If God is ok with us sinning, then He would not be telling us to follow Him and to throw off the sin that so easily entangles us!!!!

 

[Rhamiel]

I agree with that. I don't believe that we are sinful by default, otherwise aborted fetuses and others who do not live long enough to make any rational choices would be damned. What Adam chose for us was the knowledge of good and evil, which means we have no excuse when we sin. But I don't believe that a person becomes a sinner until the first time that he chooses to do something wrong; that is, the first time that he ignores the word of God that is written on his heart to pursue an evil end.

I believe I can remember when that happened to me. My mother told me not to do something, and as I went to do it anyway, I felt the wrongness of my action. That may not have been the first time, but I was pretty young, not quite three years, and if there was a prior instance of willful wrongdoing, I don't remember it. But I'm sure that everyone has had such an experience, whether they remember it or not.

they have no guilt, but they have original sin, the fact we are born messed up, outside of friendship with God