Why Can't We Freely Make Only Good Choices?

[Question.Everything]

The "God is not real because evil exists" argument is probably the most popular and most argued atheist assertion, and rightly so.

The Christian response is always "Because God gave us free will, so we must have the choice to choose evil." This doesn't make sense to me.

If God is all powerful and can create anything, could he not create a world in which we all are free to make only good choices, and are morally perfect? Eliminating evil does not eliminate choice...you can still choose what to wear, what car to drive, what job you hold, etc. "Evil" just wouldn't be a part of our moral vocabulary or comprehension.

Is that not what God is? Angels (aside from one bad apple)?

Thank you for helping me understand this problem.

 

[golgotha61]

The "God is not real because evil exists" argument is probably the most popular and most argued atheist assertion, and rightly so.

The Christian response is always "Because God gave us free will, so we must have the choice to choose evil." This doesn't make sense to me.

If God is all powerful and can create anything, could he not create a world in which we all are free to make only good choices, and are morally perfect? Eliminating evil does not eliminate choice...you can still choose what to wear, what car to drive, what job you hold, etc. "Evil" just wouldn't be a part of our moral vocabulary or comprehension.

Is that not what God is? Angels (aside from one bad apple)?



Thank you for helping me understand this problem.

Because God is omnipotent, He could create a world in which we humans would make only good choices, meaning we would never choose to rebel against God's laws. But since God's desire is for us to love him, and love for Him is, in part, demonstrated in obedience, He allowed the choice to obey Him or disobey Him and demonstrate that love. Since Adam chose to disobey God in the Garden of Eden, we as the human race inherited death which is the "wage of sin" (Romans 6:23) and we also inherited the sin nature (Romans 5:12).

Now, since we are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1) we can not make a move toward God. God then in his grace responds by loving us first (John 4:19) by sending His Son to complete the law of sin and death by Christ's atonement for our sins through His sacrificial death on the cross.

In conjunction with Christ's action, the Holy Spirit then regenerates our heart back to life so we can move toward God and accept the sacrifice of Christ. Now we are in the position to once again choose good or bad, obedience or disobedience. We now can demonstrate our love for God once again as it was in the beginning in Eden by choosing to obey.

This is a simplistic explanation since there is much more detail involved but I think this is a fair beginning summation.

 

[razeontherock]

The "God is not real because evil exists" argument is probably the most popular and most argued atheist assertion, and rightly so.

Hi and welcome to CF! Actually "the argument from evil" is incredibly weak, and is recognized as such by most atheists. There are scads of books that deal with this thoroughly.

If God is all powerful and can create anything, could he not create a world in which we all are free to make only good choices, and are morally perfect?

Nope It would not reflect reality, and would therefore make G-d a liar.

Eliminating evil does not eliminate choice...you can still choose what to wear, what car to drive, what job you hold, etc. "Evil" just wouldn't be a part of our moral vocabulary or comprehension.

Your suggestion would eliminate meaningful choice. Remember, this is not about how things appear to us, but to G-d.

Is that not what God is? Angels (aside from one bad apple)?

I'm not sure I understand your question; you think G-d = angels?

 

[elopez]

The "God is not real because evil exists" argument is probably the most popular and most argued atheist assertion, and rightly so.

I'm sure there has to be some more efficient argument than this one as I don't see how evil necessarily precludes the existence of God.

The Christian response is always "Because God gave us free will, so we must have the choice to choose evil." This doesn't make sense to me.

I've actually witnessed other responses than the appeal to free will. So while this may be one of the more popular responses it's not the only one, and I don't think it addresses the issue in totality anyway.

If God is all powerful and can create anything, could he not create a world in which we all are free to make only good choices, and are morally perfect? Eliminating evil does not eliminate choice...you can still choose what to wear, what car to drive, what job you hold, etc. "Evil" just wouldn't be a part of our moral vocabulary or comprehension.

First, God cannot create anything as that is a rather inconsistent way to define omnipotence. God cannot act in a contradicting manner, so things like square circles and too heavy of a rock cannot be created by an omnipotent being. In much of the same manner, a world in which man is only able to do morally upright deeds is not a world in which he is free, so while God could create this world man would not have free will in it.

I do not believe humanity would be at the point of needing cloths, cars, or jobs, as if this was the world in which existed where our first parents would never have sinned and would have remained in everlasting fellowship with God. Instead of the descendants of Adam being born in sin and into a world full of evil, we would be born in grace and also be in everlasting fellowship with God.

If God had made the world this way in which there would be no evil there would be no possibility of sin. If there is no possibility of sin, man cannot choose to disobey God, and if man cannot choose to disobey God he can't really choose to obey Him, either. I mean man would obey God but not because he does so of his own will, rather due to the necessity of not being able to disobey. Man would be following God instinctively, not by genuine choice. So removing the possibility of doing evil does actually eliminate choice as a result.

Is that not what God is? Angels (aside from one bad apple)?

Is what not what God is, morally perfect? Yes God is morally perfect but what God creates is not actually Himself, so it therefore cannot be morally perfect as God is.

 

[.Iona.]

I do like the idea of people only choosing good, but I do not like the idea that God would control us in such a way that we could only choose one thing. That isn't free will in my opinion - as we are not free to choose what we want, but what we are allowed.

 

[Question.Everything]

But since God's desire is for us to love him, and love for Him is, in part, demonstrated in obedience, He allowed the choice to obey Him or disobey Him and demonstrate that love. Since Adam chose to disobey God in the Garden of Eden, we as the human race inherited death which is the "wage of sin" (Romans 6:23) and we also inherited the sin nature (Romans 5:12).

This seems unbecoming of a God that is supposed to love us. Instead of creating a world in which we are all good, he plagues us with evil and sin just so we can satisfy his self-contradictory need to be loved? God shouldn't need anything, he is perfect.

 

[Question.Everything]

Actually "the argument from evil" is incredibly weak, and is recognized as such by most atheists

That's a bit of an assertion right there, care to back it up?

Any respectable atheist I've seen in debate has brought up the problem of evil, and I've watched a lot of debates. I'm not sure how you could do the same and then say "most atheists" call the argument from evil "incredibly weak".

Nope It would not reflect reality, and would therefore make G-d a liar.

So God can only create what is in our reality? Doesn't God transcend space and time, and therefore reality?

It would seem God could create such a world.

Your suggestion would eliminate meaningful choice. Remember, this is not about how things appear to us, but to G-d.

Who are you to judge someone's meaning in a choice? The type of car I choose to drive is an extremely meaningful choice. There are safety concerns, price, gas mileage, comfort, etc. These things all have an effect on my life.

Can God only find meaning in our freedom to choose him over evil? To an infinite being, I would think God could find meaning in an infinite number of ways.

I'm not sure I understand your question; you think G-d = angels?

No, I'm saying God exists and has freedom, but does no evil. Angels (aside from Lucifer) exist with God, seem to be persons that have freedom, but are morally perfect. We could have been created the same way.

The need for a "test" here on Earth seems cruel and unlike a loving God, because so much pointless suffering comes along with it.

 

[Question.Everything]

I'm sure there has to be some more efficient argument than this one as I don't see how evil necessarily precludes the existence of God.

Not the existence of "a God", the existence of a Christian God that is apparently infinitely loving.

First, God cannot create anything as that is a rather inconsistent way to define omnipotence. God cannot act in a contradicting manner, so things like square circles and too heavy of a rock cannot be created by an omnipotent being.

Square circles and a rock so heavy God can't lift it are like you pointed out, contradictions. So they are not things, they are contradictions. God can still create anything, as long as it is a thing (eg. not contradictory).

In much of the same manner, a world in which man is only able to do morally upright deeds is not a world in which he is free, so while God could create this world man would not have free will in it.

As I've pointed out already, we can have free will and be morally perfect. What happens when we die? We exist in heaven with God where we are morally perfect. Are we just "brain washed zombies" there? Do we have no freedom to do anything? Why would heaven then be desirable?

 

[razeontherock]

That's a bit of an assertion right there, care to back it up?

Any respectable atheist I've seen in debate has brought up the problem of evil

To me, this is a total yawner. I can't believe there aren't GREAT threads that cover this, much better than I could ever write.

So God can only create what is in our reality? Doesn't God transcend space and time, and therefore reality?

OUR reality needs to reflect HIS reality (the Spiritual dimension) because He is Faithful and true.

It would seem God could create such a world.

What you are expressing is what the Bible refers to as "the desire of all Nations," and what Christians call "homesick." If the terminology doesn't turn your stomach, you are living proof we were not made for our present day existence, and in our heart we all know there is "something more."

Who are you to judge someone's meaning in a choice? The type of car I choose to drive is an extremely meaningful choice. There are safety concerns, price, gas mileage, comfort, etc. These things all have an effect on my life.

Can God only find meaning in our freedom to choose him over evil?

So BMW is good, and Toyota is evil? Don't get me wrong, a Spirit filled believer attuned to the Lord can have guidance re: incredibly intimate decisions, but these have no bearing on the subject matter you raised.

No, I'm saying God exists and has freedom, but does no evil. Angels (aside from Lucifer) exist with God, seem to be persons that have freedom, but are morally perfect. We could have been created the same way.

The need for a "test" here on Earth seems cruel and unlike a loving God, because so much pointless suffering comes along with it.

See that little word I emphasized? Perhaps not as big a word as "if," but the problem here is you do not see the point of suffering. That's where we started! This is a yawner to me, because I have suffered my whole life, and faced death on countless occasions.

You also have problems with the notion that angels have freedom, and / or are morally perfect. You overlook the whole message that lucifer / satan speaks of, which is truthfully never resolved for us, and that mystery is intentionally left as a dire warning to us. (We aren't perfect either, and there apparently is a "point of no return")

One facet of this that is essential to understanding what is going on here, is this inherent conflict is constrained within time. Our lifetime will seem like a wisp of smoke, "one day." Within the confines of time, we don't see the big picture. Many non-Christian disciplines provide benefit through meditation, and I posit that at least part of that is it removes us from this limitation, at least partially, at least momentarily. I'll also point out western Christianity has largely forgotten this whole aspect of Christianity, much to the detriment of the Church.

So perhaps your first step is seeing the wisdom in the phrase, "this too shall pass?" Yet in the meantime, there is a very real struggle, with very real consequences. I encourage you to embrace it, and to find Truth! Also, re: your thread title - we CAN make only good choices!! This is absolutely the will of the Father for each of us, from what car we buy, right down the line to everything else ...

 

[golgotha61]

This seems unbecoming of a God that is supposed to love us. Instead of creating a world in which we are all good, he plagues us with evil and sin just so we can satisfy his self-contradictory need to be loved? God shouldn't need anything, he is perfect.

God showed His love by sending His Son to reestablish the human and God relationship. God did not plague us with evil, sin entered through Adam (Romans 5:12). God cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13b), He is non-contradictory. God does not need our love, He requires it.

 

[elopez]

Not the existence of "a God", the existence of a Christian God that is apparently infinitely loving.

I didn't say "a God," I was talking about the God you questioned and the one of which we are talking about. Of course that is the Christian God. This is stating the obvious for no reason. As I said, I do not see how evil precludes the existence of God.

Square circles and a rock so heavy God can't lift it are like you pointed out, contradictions. So they are not things, they are contradictions. God can still create anything, as long as it is a thing (eg. not contradictory).

I still wouldn't say that God can create anything because that would still imply a creation of the contradiction, even if you want to say it isn't a thing. Omnipotence simply means "all - powerful," nothing more nothing less.

As I've pointed out already, we can have free will and be morally perfect. What happens when we die? We exist in heaven with God where we are morally perfect. Are we just "brain washed zombies" there? Do we have no freedom to do anything? Why would heaven then be desirable?

Actually you didn't point that out, and if you think you did it's not as reasonable as you would like to think because I've pointed out the exact opposite, none of which you addressed directly.

I do not believe free will exists in Heaven. I do not think that means we are "brain washed," either, as we should not consider Heaven in confinement from earthly choices that followed to everlasting life. Love still exists in Heaven because God conserves our will to follow Him on earth. As God is the source of goodness and love His presence will be so deluging that it will expunge the freedom and desire to sin. It would be akin to shards of iron scrapings being attracted to an immensely powerful electromagnet -- the shards of iron are attracted to the magnet so profoundly there is no possibility of them falling.

 

[elman]

The "God is not real because evil exists" argument is probably the most popular and most argued atheist assertion, and rightly so.

The Christian response is always "Because God gave us free will, so we must have the choice to choose evil." This doesn't make sense to me.

If God is all powerful and can create anything, could he not create a world in which we all are free to make only good choices, and are morally perfect? Eliminating evil does not eliminate choice...you can still choose what to wear, what car to drive, what job you hold, etc. "Evil" just wouldn't be a part of our moral vocabulary or comprehension.

Is that not what God is? Angels (aside from one bad apple)?

Thank you for helping me understand this problem.

What a boring world if we could not chose to love or not love each other? Evil is chosing the unloving action. If we were unable to do that, our chosing the loving action would not be a choice--simply the programed response. We could then love each other as much as we are loved by a rock.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Question. Everything. God made us in His image, we are the only Beings in this Universe who can think and reason, we know what is Good, and we know what is Not Good. God is Love and God wants loving children/sons and daughters. Jesus told a Lawyer in Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour, ( all we know and all we meet) as thyself." God wants our love, freely given and no conditions tagged on. God gave us free will to choose to follow His Commandments to love, or to ignore them, or go our own way. Jesus gives us His Love and Joy, and the Holy spirit will give us His Love, too. Jesus told us: " ask and ye will receive," and then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We are the only representatives which our Heavenly Father has in this world, and God does not want puppets to live with Him for eternity. Adam and Eve, ( our proto-types) preferred to believe a lying Serpent, rather than God, our loving Father. The Bible will tell you all about this. We are living on this Earth, surrounded by all sorts of temptations, to learn to love God and our brothers and sisters. Learn to love God with all our Beings, ( God loves us and made us in His image) and love our neighbour, Christian brothers and sisters as we love ourselves. Jesus our Saviour and The Way, is waiting to lead us back to God where we came from, into God`s House with many Mansions, where Love reigns supreme. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. We also have to learn to say NO to all the world`s temptations, they are empty and lead us astray.

 

[Question.Everything]

To me, this is a total yawner. I can't believe there aren't GREAT threads that cover this, much better than I could ever write.

Whether or not it's a "yawner" to you makes no difference to your false assumption that "most atheists" see the argument as weak. Most of them see it as strong actually, which is why it is so heavily debated.

OUR reality needs to reflect HIS reality (the Spiritual dimension) because He is Faithful and true.

If our reality reflects God's reality, then God's reality is shockingly evil and destructive. Taking human evil aside, a star explodes (dies) every second. There is incomprehensible amounts of destruction that goes on in the universe, does this reflect God's reality?

What you are expressing is what the Bible refers to as "the desire of all Nations," and what Christians call "homesick." If the terminology doesn't turn your stomach, you are living proof we were not made for our present day existence, and in our heart we all know there is "something more."

Why would God stray us from our home? To challenge us to willingly "find" him? Again, this is a cruel test unbecoming of a God that is supposed to love us.

So BMW is good, and Toyota is evil? Don't get me wrong, a Spirit filled believer attuned to the Lord can have guidance re: incredibly intimate decisions, but these have no bearing on the subject matter you raised.

The subject matter I raised was free will and freedom of choice. You can have that while also being only good. You can be good and still have the choice to turn away from God, it's just highly unlikely that in his presence you would (Lucifer is 1 fallen angel out of how many angels?). On the other hand, when you introduce evil/greed/lust into the mix, the odds of turning from God become much higher. I'm not sure why God wants this.

See that little word I emphasized? Perhaps not as big a word as "if," but the problem here is you do not see the point of suffering. That's where we started! This is a yawner to me, because I have suffered my whole life, and faced death on countless occasions.

I can see your justification for suffering, now that we have it. But I don't see any reason for God to introduce the idea in the first place. Again, we can freely choose to love God without suffering.

You also have problems with the notion that angels have freedom, and / or are morally perfect. You overlook the whole message that lucifer / satan speaks of, which is truthfully never resolved for us, and that mystery is intentionally left as a dire warning to us. (We aren't perfect either, and there apparently is a "point of no return")

As mentioned, I do not overlook Lucifer. He is 1 fallen angel out of probably millions. Once you're in the presence of God and only know good; you are highly unlikely to stray from him (this is what Heaven is supposed to be).

Also, re: your thread title - we CAN make only good choices!!

No, we can't. According to the Bible we are born broken, and we will always sin. It is only the blood of Christ that can cleanse us. Broken people are not capable of making only good choices. That's where the confusion begins, why are we created broken in the first place? Why were Adam & Eve created to be broken people? (God knew what they would do with free will, therefore he knew they were broken before he ever made them)

 

[Question.Everything]

God showed His love by sending His Son to reestablish the human and God relationship. God did not plague us with evil, sin entered through Adam (Romans 5:12). God cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13b), He is non-contradictory. God does not need our love, He requires it.

So God allows billions of innocent people to pointlessly suffer and die throughout history, and his way of saying "Here, I'll make it up to you" is by sending 1 human as a bloody sacrifice?

I'm sorry but that idea is extremely unappealing to me.

 

[Question.Everything]

I still wouldn't say that God can create anything because that would still imply a creation of the contradiction, even if you want to say it isn't a thing. Omnipotence simply means "all - powerful," nothing more nothing less.

You cannot create a contradiction, it's a contradiction because it cannot be created. So I still retain that God can create anything.

And "all powerful" is hardly a simple term. Infinity is one of the most confusing topics in mathematics/logic, and "all powerful" encompasses more than just infinity.

Actually you didn't point that out, and if you think you did it's not as reasonable as you would like to think because I've pointed out the exact opposite, none of which you addressed directly.

If there's any specific sentence or question I'm not directly addressing, please call it out and post it.

I do not believe free will exists in Heaven. I do not think that means we are "brain washed," either

Free will seems to exist in heaven, or Lucifer would not have fallen.

Love still exists in Heaven because God conserves our will to follow Him on earth. As God is the source of goodness and love His presence will be so deluging that it will expunge the freedom and desire to sin. It would be akin to shards of iron scrapings being attracted to an immensely powerful electromagnet -- the shards of iron are attracted to the magnet so profoundly there is no possibility of them falling.

...unless you're the devil.

Also angels seem to be distinctly inhuman and not from Earth, and it seems they freely love God without any Earthly requirement or connection. Why can't we all just be born angels? Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[Question.Everything]

What a boring world if we could not chose to love or not love each other? Evil is chosing the unloving action. If we were unable to do that, our chosing the loving action would not be a choice--simply the programed response. We could then love each other as much as we are loved by a rock.

You're making the "brainwashing" argument. Please explain why Heaven is different. Heaven is a place where everyone is required to be morally perfect (ie NO evil), yet it is supposed to be a desirable place. I thought you need evil in order to choose to truly love?

By your definitions, Heaven will be extremely boring and I'm not sure why you'd want to be there.

 

[elopez]

You cannot create a contradiction, it's a contradiction because it cannot be created. So I still retain that God can create anything.

And "all powerful" is hardly a simple term. Infinity is one of the most confusing topics in mathematics/logic, and "all powerful" encompasses more than just infinity.

I understand that a contradiction cannot be created, but if we say God can create anything one could persistently say God can create contradictions. I don't, but I've seen just as many atheists claim it as Christians. It is for that reason I believe that definition "create anything" should be abandoned.

Also, I didn't say all - powerful was a simple term but that omnipotence simply means all - powerful. I don't really understand what you mean that all - powerful would mean more than infinity? Care to elaborate/make sense of that statement?

If there's any specific sentence or question I'm not directly addressing, please call it out and post it.

Sure. You said even if we could not choose evil we would still be able to choose what to drive, what to wear, and where to work. Though as I said none of those things would even be relevant in a world where there is no evil and we just follow God of necessity. It would essentially be like Heaven with no concept of material needs at all.

I have also argued that if we cannot choose to disobey God we cannot genuinely choose to follow Him either, as there would be no possibility of disobeying we would follow God out of pure necessity. Thus, no real choice in the matter.

Free will seems to exist in heaven, or Lucifer would not have fallen.

An angels free will is vastly different from man's will in that man is physically existent while angels are not. It is a different circumstance, too.

...unless you're the devil.

Also angels seem to be distinctly inhuman and not from Earth, and it seems they freely love God without any Earthly requirement or connection. Why can't we all just be born angels? Wouldn't that be nice?

Angels are distinctive from humans yes, as that only shows my point that their two wills are totally different and incomparable. I don't know why we cannot be born all angels. While it would be nice you won't catch me complaining about this earthly experience. I enjoy this life, even if evil does pursue.

 

[Hakan101]

You're making the "brainwashing" argument. Please explain why Heaven is different. Heaven is a place where everyone is required to be morally perfect (ie NO evil), yet it is supposed to be a desirable place. I thought you need evil in order to choose to truly love?

By your definitions, Heaven will be extremely boring and I'm not sure why you'd want to be there.

That's a strange way to put it, that we're "required" to be morally perfect in heaven. Righteousness is a prerequisite to getting into heaven (which is fulfilled by Christ's righteousness, not ours), but to say we're required to do that within heaven suggests we still have a sinful nature. It isn't really a matter of requiring us to do it, more like we just won't sin anymore, because we'll be freed from that curse. The evil desires that linger in our flesh will not be there in heaven.

I don't think that's brainwashing at all. If we choose to love God in this life while we still have evil desires, then in heaven our evil desires are no more, and we are instead filled with a holy nature, then we simply keep loving God because there is no reason at all to ever stop loving him. It's not a matter of brainwashing, it's a matter of complete and utter satisfaction.

 

[elman]

You're making the "brainwashing" argument. Please explain why Heaven is different. Heaven is a place where everyone is required to be morally perfect (ie NO evil), yet it is supposed to be a desirable place. I thought you need evil in order to choose to truly love?

By your definitions, Heaven will be extremely boring and I'm not sure why you'd want to be there.

I don't know that Heaven is requiring everyone to be morally perfect. You do need the ability to chose evil in order to chose to truly love, but you don't have to actually chose evil--being unloving to truly chose love. I believe God has the ability to chose evil but can be trusted to chose love, unlike us in the here and now. Perhaps then we will be more like God--able to chose but trustworthy to not chose evil. I don't think heaven will be boring.