Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

elman · Aug 6, 2010

martymonster said:
You are right to question this.

God doesn't burn anyone in Hell.
for starters He didn't make a place called Hell to burn people in in the first place.

The place that He prepared for the Devil and His messengers is the lake of fire not Hell.

The lake of fire is the day of judgment where everyone is relieved of the carnal mindedness.
In other words, it's where a flesh is destroyed.

This lake of fire is made up of the elect who are relatively
few in number who's great honor it is to judge the world and bring the second fruits into the Kingdom.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Now think, if our loving heavenly Father is going to burn most of the worlds population in a pit of fire for all eternity then the above verse doesn't make any sense.

If only the first fruits what about the second fruits?

Why is the creation groaning to see the sons of God revealed?

How is it the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption if the burning in Hellfire for all eternity?

The lake of fire is a symbol for those who are going to judge the world with Christ.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

So why are they called the lake of fire then?

They are the lake because they are so few compared to the vast sea of humanity and because God is a consuming fire and His saints are consumed by Him and that fire comes out of their mouths and devours the enemies of God.

Will they be the enemies of God forever in a pit of fire?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Anyway I hope I have given you enough to think about.
You should go and read the scriptures and see if what I have said makes anymore sense it the light of them.

PS.

If God loses His second fruits does that mean that He has near total crop failure?

I believe the lake of fire is the second death. It is not life in pain. I agree there is no hell and no suffering after death. The consequences of failing to obey the law of love is death.

LBP · Aug 6, 2010

Tavita said:
The hell that is preached these days is a pagan concept.

If you believe Christ died for all, then all WILL BE (eventually) saved... He reconciled the whole world, not just a few... that means EVERYTHING (which includes everyone).

I absolutely agree with this, Tavita. Unfortunately, it's not a position that the biblical literalists are ever going to accept. I've been associated with fundamentalist organizations and churches, and it seems pretty clear to me that the prospect of a fair proportion of humanity not making it into heaven is a source of secret satisfaction despite all the wailing and moaning about loving others and saving the lost. My feeling is that their God is just way too small -- WAY too small.

elman · Aug 6, 2010

LBP said:
I absolutely agree with this, Tavita. Unfortunately, it's not a position that the biblical literalists are ever going to accept. I've been associated with fundamentalist organizations and churches, and it seems pretty clear to me that the prospect of a fair proportion of humanity not making it into heaven is a source of secret satisfaction despite all the wailing and moaning about loving others and saving the lost. My feeling is that their God is just way too small -- WAY too small.

I am not threatened by this theology but why all the pain and suffering in this world if everyone is going to go to eternal life of bliss--What was the point? If there are no consequences to evil and sin and no differences in consequences with loving action why did God not just skip this physical life step?

Yarddog · Aug 6, 2010

Capuano231 said:
I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

Who really knows what God truly has planned?

elman · Aug 6, 2010

ctleff said:
Yes it makes you wonder doesn't it, what is this life for? are only Christians going to heaven? if so what about all of the other religions? what will happen to them?

I think our definition of Christian is too narrow. It should perhaps be defined as sheep are defined in Matt 25:31 and following. If God saves people who do not understand that loving others is loving Him, perhaps the other religions are alright--if they are loving.

martymonster · Aug 6, 2010

texastig said:
What about the Rich man and Lazarus?

Don't forget it's for all of those whose names are not found in the book of life.

Where is that in the Bible?

Where is that in the Bible?

You know what?

I think you ask but you not really interested in finding out so I'm not going to answer all you questions and besides, I was only answering someones question because their conscience was bothering them.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate on the existence of Hell.

Here's a verse for you though.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

jkryle · Aug 6, 2010

martymonster said:
You know what?

I think you ask but you not really interested in finding out so I'm not going to answer all you questions and besides, I was only answering someones question because their conscience was bothering them.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate on the existence of Hell.

Here's a verse for you though.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Your the one who said there's no Hell but Jesus says differently.
I think he asked you a legitimate question and your ignoring it because what your saying isn't scriptural.

Matthew 25:41
Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:11-12
Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Luke 12:4-5
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

beforHim · Aug 6, 2010

Too much has been said already for me to come in and give my two cents. Thus, just want to say I agree totally with the common thread here: God doesn't send anyone to Hell, bvut people do choose to be with themselve forever and not with God.

Read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It'll show you what we're talking about. And
why did Jesus have to die? John Piper wrote a book called "50 Reason why Jesus came to Die". I suggest getting ahold of that book as well. "The Great Divorce" can be found at pretty much any local bookstore, and is really cheap. "50 reasons. . .", though, I've never seen at a bookstore. For both of them, I'd suggest Amazon, and I bet you could get them both (shipping included) for under $10.

If you do want to read them but don't want to spend the money- I've sent books to other people, one book I sent to a guy on these forums. PM me and I'll hook you up.

Preecher · Aug 7, 2010

Tavita said:
The hell that is preached these days is a pagan concept.

Was Jesus a pagan? He preached Hell fire.

Mark 9:43-48 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

xGodsGracex · Aug 7, 2010

^^ Lick them with the rod of correction!!

martymonster · Aug 7, 2010

xGodsGracex said:
The actual words are what I wrote ... Matt. 22:14

The words are "many are called but few are chosen"

If We are to believe your version of events it would be "Many are called but few choose or many are called but few accept"

That's not what it says thought does it, it says "Many are called but few are chosen"

I'm sure if He had meant "many are called but few choose" He would have said that don't you think?

After all, Christ's words are never idle, He never just says something because He likes the sound of His own voice.

Christ said "Many are called but few are chosen" for a reason and I don't think He would appreciate you twisting their meaning do you?

Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.

beforHim · Aug 7, 2010

Agreed, but with some explination. I'll ask a qestion:

Do you suppose one could be doing God's works, searching after God, striving to be like God, yet the whole time they reject Christianity? Another way of putting it: does truly following God require one to actually know they are following God, does it require them to have correct factual knowledge and correct theology?

martymonster · Aug 7, 2010

texastig said:
What about the Rich man and Lazarus?

Parable!

texastig said:
Don't forget it's for all of those whose names are not found in the book of life.

You are correct.
Only God's first fruits have their names written in the Lambs book of the life.
If there was only a first fruits however, then they would be called the only fruits and not the first fruits.

Think about it.

If man gets to eat and enjoy the fruits of his labours why should God not eat and enjoy His?

Your other questions require more space to answer so I will make them the subject of a separate post.

GenemZ · Aug 7, 2010

Capuano231 said:
I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

It does not say he wants all men to go to Heaven. What he wants? He wants all men to believe on His Son.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men
to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Its those who believe in the Lord that will live in Heaven. Those who reject His Son are without excuse. To reject such perfect love reveals that such a soul can not be trusted with the power that will be granted to the resurrected.

If we are to be higher that all the angels? Just look how one of the highest angels (Satan) ended up and causing. Suffering , confusion, death... If we are all to be higher than Satan? And, Satan had no excuse for rejecting God's Son? How could God allow men who are destined for a higher state than Satan to enter into such power? The must be put in the Lake of Fire with Satan.

God must now weed out those who are bent on evil before the promotion to eternal life takes place. If God did not? There would be millions of souls worse than Satan ever was, and a never ending source of conflicts and confusion. Just look at how some here in the forum distort God's Word habitually and take pleasure in introducing doubt and confusion. God allows for this now. For, God is exposing the souls of men so that when judgment comes one can not say the "never knew."

In Christ, GeneZ

Dionysiou · Aug 7, 2010

texastig said:
Hell is for those who don't want to go to Heaven
(yes, there's people like that).

There had to be a sacrifice for sins and God Himself came down into a man's body to die for us. Jesus died for everyone but they must choose as evidenced in John 3:16

nah, if people knew that there was a hell where they would burn and suffer for all eternity, they would do anything to get out of it, namely they would "choose" God out of fear. The fact is that you dont get to see it or have a preview or even a warning of where you are headed, it just happens. People are oblivious to the danger they are in and thats why they go on sinning. If the existance of hell was a fact of life, well, there would be a heck of a lot more God fearing people.

martymonster · Aug 7, 2010

Paulie079 said:
You can't really equate humans and animals, though. Animals don't have souls. They simply act the way they were created to act. And it's important to remember that we're talking about spiritual death here. When the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" we're talking about spiritual separation from God, not physical death.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Autumnleaf · Aug 7, 2010

God can send everyone to Heaven. He can do what he wants.

martymonster · Aug 7, 2010

Autumnleaf said:
God can send everyone to Heaven. He can do what he wants.

You are correct Autumleaf.

God can do whatever He wants and in fact that is exactly what He has been doing all along and what He will continue to do.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

5qwerty · Aug 7, 2010

Slap me if I'm wrong, but...

Yes, it's true that God doesn't want us to die, but God is a just Judge. Would you like to see a murderer to be considered innocent in court? Of course not, because unless God punishes the wicked, how would he be qualified to Judge the World? Some people may ask: "Why would a merciful God condemn anyone to Hell?" A question to counter that is: "Why would anyone reject His love and mercy?" Of course I did not come up with these quotes, but it came from the Bible and a Movie.

Dionysiou said:
nah, if people knew that there was a hell where they would burn and suffer for all eternity, they would do anything to get out of it, namely they would "choose" God out of fear. The fact is that you dont get to see it or have a preview or even a warning of where you are headed, it just happens. People are oblivious to the danger they are in and thats why they go on sinning. If the existance of hell was a fact of life, well, there would be a heck of a lot more God fearing people.

I don't understand why, but many people know the knowledge of the Bible, and they still work against God. These people are called Satanists. Fearing Hell and being burned for eternity is the truth that we believe in. Others may believe that going to Hell is better than being with God, or something like that. The Bible says many times that people will burn in Hell for eternity because of sin, like some members have quoted before. And some others have their own belief; they don't believe in Hell, that's why they're not scared.

Capuano231 said:
I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

Well, the Bible says in many places that we'll be condemned to Hell. I think that the best we can do right now to avoid Hell (Whether you believe in it or not) is to put our absolute faith in Christ, and believe that he can forgive our sins. I still believe in Hell, and that is what compels me to get closer to God. Though the best way to deal with this problem is to read the Bible again and again. The Holy Spirit may one day make you understand once you come across a certain verse.

beforHim · Aug 7, 2010

No one wants to tackle my questions. I understand how blasphemous or silly or maybe even "very confusing" they sound. I'll wait a while longer and see if anyone hazards a response.

Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

elman

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