Why believing in a literal Adam and Eve matters

[ARBITER01]

This is exactly the fundamentalist mindset that so easily flips to atheism. It's exactly what happened to Bart Ehrman and has happened to umpteen others.

A change of mind is not a change of heart.

 

[HBP]

A guy's gotta' do what a guy's gotta' do to bring Scripture into agreement with one's personal non-Biblical view.

Otherwise, one might have to submit to Biblical teaching contrary to one's personal view. . .maybe the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), condemning all mankind at birth, making them by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3)?

You do, then, believe those who die as infants are condemned to eternal damnation - is that right?

A change of mind is not a change of heart.

Alas, a shift from fundamentalist Christianity to atheism is generally a change of both mind and heart.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm way more apt to trust that when GOD says something, it is not just the truth, but absolute fact. I don't consider Him just declaring something falsely into existence that never happened.

And I think that God doesn't trust us with everything he knows............................................................ because He knows us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

See Jesus' viewpoint of the OT in post #69.

That view works for me, needs no improving upon.

And I don't think we have ALL of Jesus' viewpoint. And that's a fact. But it is what it is.

 

[ARBITER01]

Alas, a shift from fundamentalist Christianity to atheism is generally a change of both mind and heart.

You/re 70 years old and lack a whole lot of experience in Christian things.

A change of heart will easily be a martyr, a change of mind can be easily played with and betray The Lord. The true born again experience is the change of heart that is loyal to death.

In other words, it seems Ehrman only had a change of mind since it was so easily played with by his professors.

 

[ARBITER01]

And I think that God doesn't trust us with everything he knows............................................................ because He knows us.

I don't think a possible 7 dimensional being can really begin to teach us all He knows. Also, trust is earned over time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So God would lie? I am out of this nonsensical conversation

No, God doesn't lie. But neither does God feel the need to fill us in on every single aspect or nuance of the fuller Reality that He knows.

There are things He doesn't tell us about............................ and we need to have the humility to realize how and why that even we as Christians don't know everything.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I think you're missing the point. Regardless of whether Adam and Eve were historical figures, Genesis expresses the core truth about the human condition, about what it means to be human. To be human is to be less than divine, less than holy, estranged from the creator. How would it constitute a "lie" by God to express this core truth to ancient Jews in metaphorical, literary terms they could easily grasp? Are the most profound works of poetry and fiction all "lies"? No, they convey their truths in non-literal terms because this is the most effective way to convey them.

Do the literalist folks also accept the cosmology of Genesis - the waters above and the waters below, separated by the vault of the sky, with the sun, moon and stars all attached to the vault? Really, you do? If not, why not - why is the ancient Jewish cosmology not to be taken literally but the account of Adam and Eve is?

I know the difference between David Mccullough's writings and Hans Christian Andersons's....a good class in historiography would educate you in this matter.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think a possible 7 dimensional being can really begin to teach us all He knows. Also, trust is earned over time.

Yes, I agree. But there are things that even Jesus didn't know in his human form during the first Advent. We seem to ignore that and when we think we have the "mind of Christ," some in the Christian Church talk and act like they "know all" because they put claim upon the Mind of Christ which we have through the Holy Spirit. And I'm saying........................that ain't the case and we need to stop popping each other in the eye because we all are so darn confident that we think we have it all figured out, especially along denominational lines.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes, I agree. But there are things that even Jesus didn't know in his human form during the first Advent. We seem to ignore that and when we think we have the "mind of Christ," some in the Christian Church talk and act like they "know all" because they put claim upon the Mind of Christ we have through the Holy Spirit. And I'm saying........................that ain't the case and we need to stop popping each other in the eye because we all are so darn confident that we have it all figured out denominationally.

I think you're taking the conversation down a different path than what I originally posted to.

GOD doesn't make a statement than tries to work against our free will to make it true. GOD is truth, and what He says is what He sees.

 

[Clare73]

And I don't think we have ALL of Jesus' viewpoint. And that's a fact. But it is what it is.

So there is more from Jesus that we don't know which has the possibility of altering what we do know.

Trasnlate: there's a possibility that Jesus may contradict himself.

You never cease to amaze. . .all the while not realizing the source of your view.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So there is more from Jesus that we don't know which has the possibility of altering what we do know.

Yes. And I don't know what that is, and you don't know what that is. But we'll but be finding out in the future.

Trasnlate: there's a possibility that Jesus may contradict himself.

You never cease to amaze. . .

No. That's absolutely not what I'm saying. But since you don't seem to have the care to understand what I'm saying or to understand my viewpoint that I think the Lord has opened to me, I think you and I will end up butting heads just like Paul and Barnabas did. Neither was wrong; and neither was right. They were just different Christians.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I just believe them, as did Jesus, who believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Jn 10:35, Lk 11:28, 5:1),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).

Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).

Belief in the truth of the OT was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

I'm sure you'll understand if I agree with Jesus.

You present a lot of the same quotes that have very little to do with literal interpretation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you're taking the conversation down a different path than what I originally posted to.

No. I'm merely hinting at nuances of my own viewpoint in Christ that you, in your own personal knowledge base, haven't yet engaged.

And that's ok.

GOD doesn't make a statement than tries to work against our free will to make it true. GOD is truth, and what He says is what He sees.

No., I think God makes statemements that we have to run to keep up with. But all too often, there are those who think they understand clearly all of what little we have recorded in the New Testament writings. The New Testament writings don't explain everything. That should be obvious to all.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So there is more from Jesus that we don't know which has the possibility of altering what we do know.

Trasnlate: there's a possibility that Jesus may contradict himself.

You never cease to amaze. . .all the while not realizing the source of your view.

And you don't realize the source of my view. You just make dishonrable insinuations. I would stop doing that if I were you. You might be knocking a brother in Christ over the head thinking you're doing the Kingdom a service. I'm trying to be honest and helpful.

 

[ARBITER01]

No. I'm merely hinting at nuances of my own viewpoint in Christ that you, in your own personal knowledge base, haven't yet engaged.

And that's ok.

I'm going on 61 in a couple of months here. At this point, if The Holy Spirit hasn't brought it to my attention, it isn't important.

No., I think God makes statemements that we have to run to keep up with. But all too often, there are those who think they understand clearly all of what little we have recorded in the New Testament writings. The New Testament writings don't explain everything. That should be obvious to all.

A relationship with Jesus, the communion of The Holy Spirit, and having The Father pull you out of time temporarily when HE speaks is way more important than a complete understanding of our bible.

It would be nice to have, but the relationship with GOD is more real.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm going on 61 in a couple of months here. At this point, if The Holy Spirit hasn't brought it to my attention, it isn't important.

And I'm only 5 years behind you, and the things we each study respectively are ALL important to me. But you do you, and I'll do me.

A relationship with Jesus, the communion of The Holy Spirit, and having The Father pull you out of time temporarily when HE speaks is way more important than a complete understanding of our bible.

How about applying grace, mercy, compassion and understanding with each other as siblings in Christ? With the way politics is leading the way these days, it almost seems like these fruits of the Spirit are being put on the back-burner in the name of some off-kilter understanding of what Truth and Politics is and is supposed to be between us who are of various positions within the Body of Christ.

Notice how I don't disparage our own faith in Christ and I don't question your faith?

It would be nice to have, but the relationship with GOD is more real.

Each of us has our own viewpoint in Christ. That's all I'm saying. Somewhere in all of that, I bet you and I have a lot of overlap, we just can't seem to get there because in this thread, Adam and Eve is the prime issue. Well, it isn't the only issue (or the only doctrine of significance).

 

[Clare73]

You present a lot of the same quotes that have very little to do with literal interpretation.

Demonstration of your assertion?

 

[Clare73]

No. I'm merely hinting at nuances of my own viewpoint in Christ that you, in your own personal knowledge base, haven't yet engaged.
And that's ok.
No., I think God makes statemements that we have to run to keep up with. But all too often, there are those who think they understand clearly all of what little we have recorded in the New Testament writings. The New Testament writings don't explain everything. That should be obvious to all.

Three relevant or pertinent things which they do not explain. . .or which are not knowable?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Three relevant or pertinent things which they do not explain. . .or which are not knowable?

Why 'three things'? Why not five things or ten things, Clare? Trust me sister, you don't want me to answer this question you've posed.

Just keep faith and affirm that what is in store for us in the future is what Paul has said it will be.