Why be Kosher?

[Charlesinflorida]

Kosher law is the Toah regulations conerning what is clean to eat and what is not. In a literal sense it defines what IS food and what IS NOT food. The principle of Kosher eating is lost on the church who has no real familiarity with its purpose. It is viewed as part of that Old Testament which is no longer valid for believers in Yeshua especially Gentiles. Most churchmen will tell me, "According to Acts 15, Gentiles only have to do these four things" And they quote them, not realizing that three of them are in fact Kosher laws.

But here is a simple way of viewing Kosher food laws.

God has called us to be a speial and unique people that can serve as his priests (representatives) to the nations ( unsaved). We are His emmisaries. So he would have us be upstanding and righteous people. Therefore God makes a distinction between the holy and profane, between good and vile.lean and unlean. It has to do with SANCTIFICATION:

Best way to illustrate this is by a few other examples that are easier to agree with.

Sex is a wonderful thing, ( I think most will agree) but it is only good and clean if it occurs in the setting of marriage. Marriage sanctifies sex. We are not to be driven by our sexual desires, allowing it to consume us. We divide our sex drive into that which is sanctified and that which is not. We control our sexual urges, not our urges controlling us. Sex beomes a holy act in marriage.

The planet goes around the sun in a continuous arc and for a dog every day is the same. For a slave every day is a work day. But for Gods people time is sanctified by dividing it into common and sacred. Sabbath divides the week into common work days and then sets one day special for rest, recovery and fellowship. The months of the year are divided into festivals that give special attention to Gods pophetic plan of salvation. Every 7 years is a sabbatical to rest the land and the flocks, and every 7 sabbaticals is a Jubilee where debts are forgiven, lands returned and fresh beginnings made. So by dividing time and setting certain days aside as special to God. Time itself is sactified. we can not and do not spend every day working and become slaves again. We pace ourselve by the Clock on Gods wall, beating out a holy rythum Holy day after holy day.

Our material gain is sactified when we tithe or give free offerings. We hold material things loosely. They do not hold us prisoner. Wealth is Santificed by sharing it with others who have need. Giving is a holy act. God blesses us and we bless others.

Our eating can be clean or unclean. We can allow our appitites to control us just like the other above , or we can divide our appitites into clean and unclean. By doing so, we control our bellies rather than our bellies controlling us. Our eating beomes a holy act. Just as our wealth and earnings become holy actions, or times become special holy times, and our sexual pleasures beome holy acts. Kosher law make eating a holy act. It brings nurishment to us from Gods own menue, telling us what is the best things for us, and what is going to make us sick.

Now... having said all this, I must warn you that Gods law contains Kosher laws, but Rabinical law takes it much much further adding to it endless hand washings and pot washings and all sorts of rules about preparation. I can see some good in these, because they mean to tell us how to be obedient to the Torah, but perhaps they go too far. .I am not saying Rabinial traditons is for everyone. But Gods Kosher law is for all who are called according to His name.

IS it a matter of salvation? Lets think of it in the same framework as gluttony, sexual perversion, being a workaholic, or being stingy. God would have us do better than this.

Charles in Florida

 

[Jim B]

How do you interpret the following (remembering that brevity is the soul of wit )?

Acts 10:

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."​

1 Corinthians 10:

23"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake -- 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?​

1 Corinthians 6:

12"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both.​

Romans 14:

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.​

 

[Charlesinflorida]

How do you interpret the following (remembering that brevity is the soul of wit )?

Ask me to be bief, and then ask as 2000 word question!

Acts 10:

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."​

Peter interprets his own vision acording to the Holy spirit in the chapters that follow,and says that by this vision he knew that the Lord was speaking about GENTILES, (not food) and that by this sign Gentiles were to receive the Gospel and salvation same as Jews. If we try to make this vision about food, then you throw away ods sign or the Gentiles. I don't think you want to do this.

1 Corinthians 10:

23"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake -- 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?​

Here the issue is meat sold in the market which the source might be unknown because the Pagan temples sacrifices fed into the local meat markets. The prohibition was against things sacrificed to idols. It might be otherwise kosher beef, but the sacrificing to an idol might be a problem. This issue is also about having fellowship in the ourts of Pagan temples. So I think the issue is one of conscience, are you satisfied in your own mind that the meat you are buying is not unclean by Pagan ritual, or not. But what ever you do, do not cause another brother to stumble because of your decision. It is better to pass on the food than to cause someone to fall. But for the sake of brevity. . .

1 Corinthians 6:

12"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both.​

Pretty much as above.

Romans 14:

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.​

The entire book of Romans serves a purpose of straightening out excesses in the Church in Rome. It was a mixed church of both Jew and Gentiles and unsaved Jews. Paul was concerned that the Gentiles were taking liberty beyond what the Jews might be ready to understand having a more literal and conservative approach to the laws, and thereby they were causing the Jews to be offended and causing them to loose interest in Messiah Yeshua. They were begining to fall away because of the Gentiles actions.

Also it should be noted that Paul says no food is unclean in itself, but if one considers it unclean then its unclean to him.

OK. First off he calls it FOOD which means he is speaking about Kosher food and not just any kind of food. Paul would not call Pork food. . But there were things that in the eyes of some Jews make otherwise clean kosher food unclean, for example eating with unwashed hands. (Yeshua addressed this one) or the way it was prepared, cooking meat with dairy, (rabbinical ruling) or possibly having been from a Pagan temple. (There are others) So if the Jews considered it as no longer kosher even though by definition it was clean otherwise, follow the lead of the Jewish brother so that he is not offended and turn away from the Gospel.

Charles in Florida

 

[Perceivence]

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Perceivence,

There is another way to view this. Paul is speaking to Gentiles who had become believers and had begun practicing the Torah commands. However they were being criticized by Jewish extremists of the circumcision party who said that these Gentiles had no right to take part in Jewish religious activities unless they first undergo circumcision and become fully Jews. Ths passage continues and Paul also warns against Gnostics, and esthetics, and a number of other herecies of that day. Paul had no problem with gentiles being obedient to Torah. In fact in other places he asks them to be mindful o the things of Torah lest they cause some other brother to stumble (Romans) and he circumcises Timothy, who was aa Gentile, beause Timothy wanted to be fully emmersed in Torah life.

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

Perceivence,

There is another way to view this. Paul is speaking to Gentiles who had become believers and had begun practicing the Torah commands. However they were being criticized by Jewish extremists of the circumcision party who said that these Gentiles had no right to take part in Jewish religious activities unless they first undergo circumcision and become fully Jews. Ths passage continues and Paul also warns against Gnostics, and esthetics, and a number of other herecies of that day. Paul had no problem with gentiles being obedient to Torah. In fact in other places he asks them to be mindful o the things of Torah lest they cause some other brother to stumble (Romans) and he circumcises Timothy, who was aa Gentile, beause Timothy wanted to be fully emmersed in Torah life.

Charles in Florida

How does one walk out a spiritual life by being "Kosher"?

 

[Andrew]

We are no longer under the moral or ceremonial laws. God writes his requirements in out hearts and minds today. This means that we will know (mind) what God wants us to do in a particular situation and we will have the desire (heart) to do it. It has not by hard-and-fast rules.

eg. in my Chinese culture, pork and prawns are a big part of our diet. But anyone knows that too much pork and too much prawns are bad. So when I go into a restaurant, the Holy Spirit will lead and guide. He may say, stay away from pork this time, you've had too much in the past week. Or he may say, its ok, you've not had it for sometime. It's flexible. It's a wonderful life of freedom and flowing with the Spirit, we are not led by laws anymore.

 

[LynneClomina]

we need to be careful to not let our traditions get in the way of interpreting scripture. read our theology OUT of our Bible, not INTO our Bible. yes? i think coming from a jewish perspective colors the NT, which is not jewish , it is christian, because it is about christ and his followers, not strictly the jewish people group. i have heard it said that Jesus was a jew... physically? yes. spiritually? no - He was "christian" in the purest sense of the word, the Christ himself. i am not a "messianic jew", i am a "christian". that is who i am.

but spiritually....
Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

so, spiritually, i am a jew. and ANY unbeliever, even of Jewish heritage, is not a jew in the spirit.

so it all gets kinda mixed up since Christ came, anyways....so why worry about it all?

Lynne

 

[Trish1947]

There is to much of a "danger" of me trying to be justified by the written law, because if I put myself into that position, then I have fallen from grace, as it is written, "Those that choose (apparently you can choose, and I choose not to) to be justified by the law are fallen from grace". I refuse to hold any book above what I have first received, which is Jesus, and being jusified by His law being placed into my heart, (the law of love) You cannot serve two masters, you will either hate the one, or love the other. I love Jesus, and I have his law of love in my heart, by the Spirit of God. That one law really covers the Tora. The law of love. To Love God with all My Heart, And to love my Neighbor As Myself. Therefore is the law fulfilled. If I'm loving God, and man,(walking in the Spirit) I dont break the ten. The written law now become a living law in my heart, not of the letter. So since the law now has become "living" and has to by the Holy Spirit, be placed in my heart, why would I want to go back to something that now is "dead",( laws written on stone.) Basicly, he took if from rock and put it into my heart, by Jesus Christ. It's something He does for you, not something you can do for Him. Thats why it's called "the gift of salvation." Those that have Christ and have received His Spirit, (the love of God is spread abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost), then I will love man also.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

How does one walk out a spiritual life by being "Kosher"?

Hello Again Marine,

It is like my examples above. We walk in holiness by doing the things that please God, or at least that we believe pleases God. For example once again, We can be promiscuous, or we can confine or sexual appitites to the conines of Marriage, we can listen to slammer rock n roll or we can listen to (or perform) edifying spiritual songs, we can smoke and drink and stay intoxicated or we can be sober. Always there is a holy (clean) way and an unholy (unclean) way or us to choose from. This is true in regards to food as well. We can eat in holiness by controlling our eating rather than it controlling us. Kosher diet is the way that was given for us to learn precious/vile in regards to food.

This does not ever cover the benefits of kosher eating which have been documented many times.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

We are no longer under the moral or ceremonial laws. God writes his requirements in out hearts and minds today. This means that we will know (mind) what God wants us to do in a particular situation and we will have the desire (heart) to do it. It has not by hard-and-fast rules.

eg. in my Chinese culture, pork and prawns are a big part of our diet. But anyone knows that too much pork and too much prawns are bad. So when I go into a restaurant, the Holy Spirit will lead and guide. He may say, stay away from pork this time, you've had too much in the past week. Or he may say, its ok, you've not had it for sometime. It's flexible. It's a wonderful life of freedom and flowing with the Spirit, we are not led by laws anymore.

Thats really wonderful that the spirit directs you in this way. Not all hear his voice so clearly. Does he ever tell you,"Its OK to have a little extra-marital sex this week, because you have been faithful for a month now, so go ahead and defile yourself some today." ? Unclean food defiles just as extramarital sex defiles. What is the difference. They are both just Gods commandments?

(I am speaking in a way to make you think and don't mean to be crass or insulting. Do you see that we are talking about? It all works the same. Please read my opening examples of what Kosher is in regards to sanctification.)

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

we need to be careful to not let our traditions get in the way of interpreting scripture. read our theology OUT of our Bible, not INTO our Bible. yes? i think coming from a jewish perspective colors the NT, which is not jewish , it is christian, because it is about christ and his followers, not strictly the jewish people group. i have heard it said that Jesus was a jew... physically? yes. spiritually? no - He was "christian" in the purest sense of the word, the Christ himself. i am not a "messianic jew", i am a "christian". that is who i am.

but spiritually....
Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

so, spiritually, i am a jew. and ANY unbeliever, even of Jewish heritage, is not a jew in the spirit.

so it all gets kinda mixed up since Christ came, anyways....so why worry about it all?

Lynne

Lynne, Nothing could be farther from the truth. Yeshua was Jewish Yes! And he did live as a Torah observant Jew, absolutely. He wore Tallit, ate Kosher, went to synagogue, said the Shema every day and had a Mazzuah on his doorpost. The New testament is not "Christian" as opposed to Jewish. Paul James, John, Peter, the writer of Hebrews, ect. all the disciples were also Jews living Torah obedient lives and living as Jews, only with the added knowledge that the long awaited Messiah had come ad his name was Yeshua. Everything they wrote comes out of their Jewish traditions and Torah lifestyle.

The first churches continued to meet in the synagogues and to study Torah just as before. This didn't change for several hundred years. It was not until 318 AD the the Church departed from keeping the Sabbath. Think of that; longer than the U.S. has been a nation, the church continued to practice Judaism. And that seems pretty late and after the fact to be calling out such drastic changes and new revelations. The christianity you have today is a blend of Jewish practice and Roman-Greeco Paganism. This is no insult. It is a well documented fact. Most clergymen today know this and admit to it, but are wihout a clue as to how to change it. Because they are caught in the system that promotes itself by sponsoring men into ministry on condition of their perpetuating the lie. If they try to change things now they lose their affiliations and jobs.

Charles in Florida

 

[LynneClomina]

i disagree. christ upped the bar, the standard, and advanced from judaism to following him. i am content to disagree with you charles, but i feel like you are trying to convert those of us here who do not believe as you do... are you? you DO seem to feel we have two entirely different religions....



Lynne

 

[Charlesinflorida]

There is to much of a "danger" of me trying to be justified by the written law, because if I put myself into that position, then I have fallen from grace, as it is written, "Those that choose (apparently you can choose, and I choose not to) to be justified by the law are fallen from grace". I refuse to hold any book above what I have first received, which is Jesus, and being jusified by His law being placed into my heart, (the law of love) You cannot serve two masters, you will either hate the one, or love the other. I love Jesus, and I have his law of love in my heart, by the Spirit of God. That one law really covers the Tora. The law of love. To Love God with all My Heart, And to love my Neighbor As Myself. Therefore is the law fulfilled. If I'm loving God, and man,(walking in the Spirit) I dont break the ten. The written law now become a living law in my heart, not of the letter. So since the law now has become "living" and has to by the Holy Spirit, be placed in my heart, why would I want to go back to something that now is "dead",( laws written on stone.) Basicly, he took if from rock and put it into my heart, by Jesus Christ. It's something He does for you, not something you can do for Him. Thats why it's called "the gift of salvation." Those that have Christ and have received His Spirit, (the love of God is spread abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost), then I will love man also.

Trish,

You are simply repeating ill informed church retorec. You can not chose to be justified hrough law keeping or to be justified through faith. There is no such thing as justification by law. Not in Judaism or messianic judaism. Torah over and over teaches that salvation is through repentance, and not though law keeping. I do not believe you can even find a Jewish person who thinks the law saves him. Your arguement is fatally flawed.

You say the law is writen on your heart. That is true. But it it is the same law that was written before on scrolls. You are living in the new covenant. Jer 31:31. In the New covenant that same law, (the word is Torah in the original) that very same law is what ws written on your heart. Not an ammended version, or a shorter version and not a one liner. TORAH. Gods instruction or teaching. The same law that says do not commit murder also says, do not lie with a man or a beast as you do with a woman, and also says do not eat pork or shellfish and also zay remember the sabath and keep it a holy day unto God! . The only thing that you are choosing from is which laws you like to keep, and which laws you don't like to keep. But you are choosing from the same book of laws.

You are mistaken. Paul did not say the law was dead. He said your old natue is dead. He said that your list of sins of breaking the law as gone away, nailed to the cross and your debts forgiven, but the law stands. Paul says all the law is holy righteous and good. Paul himself remained Torah observant till the day he died, by his own testimony.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

The doctrine that will be most prevelent in the last days, will be the doctrine of food, and abstaining from what God has sanctified. and beware I say:


1st Timothy Chapter 4 v. 1-7

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils:

Speaking lies in hyprocrsy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is sactified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the bretheren in rememberance of these things, thou shalt be a good mininster of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

i disagree. christ upped the bar, the standard, and advanced from judaism to following him. i am content to disagree with you charles, but i feel like you are trying to convert those of us here who do not believe as you do... are you? you DO seem to feel we have two entirely different religions....



Lynne

Lynne,

On the contrary, it is you who insists that there are two diferent religions, Jew and Christians. I am the one that is saying that there is one religion and that is the Messianc Judaism that was practiced by the disciples, taught by the disciples and followed by the church for the first 300 years of its existance. Chistianity was the new religion and it came from Rome. It has diferent feast days, different theology, different religious practices, diferent almost everything.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Why does the church celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec. 25th?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

The doctrine that will be most prevelent in the last days, will be the doctrine of food, and abstaining from what God has sanctified. and beware I say:


1st Timothy Chapter 4 v. 1-7

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seduching spirits, and doctrines of devils:

Speaking lies in hyprocrsy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is sactified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the bretheren in rememberance of these things, thou shalt be a good mininster of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Read it in context and read it all. Paul is speaking of occultism and ascetics. Obstaining from meats, refers to the group of ascets that were strict vegitarians. When Paul speak in regards of food or meats he is not calling snakes and pigs food. He is say that which is clean and considered good as food, should be simply received with thanksgiving. It goes hand in hand with the other items on this list. Do Jews teach you to obstain from marriage? No, certainly not. In fact the opposite is true, beause in Judaism you are not considered a full man until you have married, and having children is almost a requirement.

Charles in Florida

 

[TheScottsMen]

Charles In Florida:
This forum is Charismatic, not Messianc Judaism.

 

[Trish1947]

Read it in context and read it all. Paul is speaking of occultism and ascetics. Obstaining from meats, refers to the group of ascets that were strict vegitarians. When Paul speak in regards of food or meats he is not calling snakes and pigs food. He is say that which is clean and considered good as food, should be simply received with thanksgiving. It goes hand in hand with the other items on this list. Do Jews teach you to obstain from marriage? No, certainly not. In fact the opposite is true, beause in Judaism you are not considered a full man until you have married, and having children is almost a requirement.

Charles in Florida

I dont accept your interpretaion of this at all. The Catholic Church preventing preists from marriage, and it's a good institution of God. And who goes around eating snakes for goodness sake, not many. But if I was starving in the desert, and caught a snake, He's going to taste pretty good, and thank you Lord.!!

And if you will notice I did not highlight abstaining from marriage concerning your belief. But apparently you refused to see that. And you refuse to see in the scripture that it said, "The spirit expressly say's IN THE LATTER TIMES. So this cannot mean occultizm, or ascetics, that you say was pertaining to Pauls day.